Comparing DTV tuner cards (PCI) tuner sensitivity

"G-squared" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 20, 12:16 am, wrote:
On Sep 19, 1:00 pm, G-squared wrote:

snip
Without knowing his location, channel number of the DTV and power
level of the DTVs in his area, there is no way to make any kind
of
evaluation. A fellow video engineer I work with has the Hauppage
1600
and a 950 USB tuner and both work well. I have 3 ATI HDTV Wonder
cards
and they have 'normal' sensitivity. The comparison tuner is a
Samsung
SIR-T165.

GG

This first comment isn't for the first party rather it is something
of
a
half baked idea. Perhaps a standalone tuner somehow hooked
to computer would be the way to go. Direct to a computer
monitor it would surely work. Though I'd want to be about to record
on HD for time shifting. I know this is half baked but is it
possible?
I suppose I'd still need software even if someone got it hooked up
or
set
up correctly. I'd think (without real basis) a standalone tuner
would
likely be
better engineered and hence better better at picking up a signal.
Samsung makes one and there are others some .

I'd think the first party should consider a UHF antenna.

The problems with recording DTV is the data rate. While MPEG2 is not
overly high at 19.3 megabits/second, getting that stream into the
computer from an external tuner is a big chore. The tuner _could_ have
a firewire port which is easiest but more likely what comes out is
component analog or DVI / HDMI. Component analog need to be converted
back to digital - at 1.5 GIGABIT/second (550 gigabyte/hour). This is a
BIG deal to work with. The internal tuners simply hand over the MPEG2
stream at 20 megabits (75 times less data than your own converter).
DVI / HDMI is already digital but need to be handled at full data rate
so needs to be re-converted to MPEG 2 or 4. Bottom line - sell the
tuner on eBay to someone who needs it and get a computer tuner - PCI
or USB. FAR less aggravation and better results.


Aside from the technical issues there's the lack of supporting hardware to
input a HD video source into a PC. The only common, practical, inexpensive
way to record HD programing to a PC is the use of video capture cards with
ATSC / QAM tuners. IMO were not going to see new option come to market
unless or until the DRM are proven to secure complete control to the content
owners. ATI's Ocur Cable Card tuners maybe of interest to some that are in
the market for a solution that includes cable and won't object to buying a
new PC to use the tuners.




As far as better engineered - who can tell? Will it last a few years?
Is it sensitive anough? My first ATI tuner is 34 months old and doing
fine. Performance is reliable at this point. The other 2 ATIs were
from eBay so I don't know the total age, just that they've been here
for over a year and also doing fine.

GG


My observation are similar to yours having purchased and used my fair share
of video capture card including one of the first to have a ATSC tuner, "yet"
have not seen one fail. The improvements in ATSC tuners on capture cards has
mirrored the improvements seen in STB and television set ATSC tuners. There
are engineering differences that make some tune better or handle multipath
better but that's an individual device rather then STB vs. capture card
thing . Under common conditions the average tuner PC or STB should yield
solid results with a proper antenna and cabling.

On Sep 20, 3:16 am, wrote:
On Sep 19, 1:00 pm, G-squared wrote:



On Sep 19, 12:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message

ups.com...

Hi,

Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600).
My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding,
ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn
balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a
fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an
attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't
measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going
back to
the store.

Thanks for any help!

Are you comparing the two using the same antenna are using the sets
antenna
vs. an indoor antenna. On the portable your likely tuning for a
NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF.
Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little
confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength
for.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other
similar
tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna for
tuning.
It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength then
your
portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts to
low signal
strength

Without knowing his location, channel number of the DTV and power
level of the DTVs in his area, there is no way to make any kind of
evaluation. A fellow video engineer I work with has the Hauppage 1600
and a 950 USB tuner and both work well. I have 3 ATI HDTV Wonder cards
and they have 'normal' sensitivity. The comparison tuner is a Samsung
SIR-T165.

GG

This first comment isn't for the first party rather it is something of
a
half baked idea. Perhaps a standalone tuner somehow hooked
to computer would be the way to go.

Yes, that's what this card is (along with a hardware MPEG2 encoder.)

Direct to a computer
monitor it would surely work. Though I'd want to be about to record
on HD for time shifting. I know this is half baked but is it possible?

I hope so, that's why I bought the card!

I suppose I'd still need software even if someone got it hooked up or
set
up correctly. I'd think (without real basis) a standalone tuner would
likely be
better engineered and hence better better at picking up a signal.
Samsung makes one and there are others some .

I'd think the first party should consider a UHF antenna.

I'm considering a lot of antenna approaches, however, being in
a fringe area, I want to choose a card with the best RF sensitivity
(in my price range!)

Thanks for the reply.

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:42:30 -0700, "Mr. Land"
wrote:

I live in a fringe area, which is why I'm concerned with the RF input
sensitivity of the card's tuners.

You're being silly about this whole thing. If you live in a "fringe area"
you shouldn't be wasting time with rabbit ears. If you go to
antennaweb.org and enter your address, you'll get a report on exactly what
you need to get good reception. You also wrote in a previous post that you
had a digital tuner box. If the tuner in that thing was more sensitive
than the Hauppauge card, feed the s-video and audio outs of the box to the
s-video and audio ins of the Hauppauge card. It will be clunky but work.
In the end though, you either install on the roof a real antenna (you might
even need a pre-amplifier) that can pull in the stations, or subscribe to
cable. The Hauppauge card can decode QAM.

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:42:30 -0700, Mr. Land wrote:

On Sep 19, 3:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message
Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600). My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding, ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going back to
the store.

On the portable your likely tuning for a NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF. Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength for.

This particular model card is what they call a "Hybrid" - it actually
has two tuners in it: a traditional analog VHF/UHF tuner, and a separate
ATSC tuner. Each tuner has its own RF input (each has a standard "F"
antenna input connector.)

Just for the record both NTSC and ATSC use the same UHF/VHF freqs. If you
get a crappy NTSC picture, it's likely you won't even get an ATSC picture
assuming the signals for both channels are similar, which they rarely are.

My comparison consisted of plugging the antenna into the small TV's
antenna input connector, then removing it and plugging it into the RF
input for the card's analog tuner. Again, while the little TV was able
to give me a fairly decent picture, the card didn't even detect that
channel. I know the card isn't defective, because if I give it a strong
enough signal, it will work.

Who cares? Analog will be gone shortly and you don't want to even watch it
now if you have an ATSC tuner.

I live in a fringe area, which is why I'm concerned with the RF input
sensitivity of the card's tuners.

And you're testing with rabbit ears? That doesn't really make a hell of a
lot of sense.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other
similar tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna
for tuning. It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength
then your portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts
to low signal strength

Hmm, I don't see how software's going to effect the tuner sensitivity.
Isn't that more of a function of the design/quality of the first stage
RF amplifier inside the tuners? I.e. wouldn't it be a function of the
hardware design? Unless they've designed it such that the software can
control the gain of the RF stages, but I kind of doubt they're that
sophisticated.

I don't know about analog because I don't even have any tuners that work
with NTSC. Mine are all first generation ATSC circa 2002. I originally
bought the latest greatest (5th gen tuner at the time) at the latest
greatest price too I might add. After comparing to the old ones I could
get for under $20 now, I sold the expensive one. When you can buy 6 of
them for what the 1 expensive one cost... Anyway, for ATSC, The software
application does control the sensitivity of the card for ATSC lock. With
the software I use, you can set the timeout to wait for a lock, and the
signal strength needed to be considered a lockable station. The default
wasn't long enough for a couple of weak stations around here. Does all
software give you those options? Couldn't say. MythTV does. Key to any
ATSC reception is the antenna. I'm about 42 miles from the towers and with
my old uhf/vhf combo antenna I couldn't get one or two of the UHF ATSC
stations (NTSC uhf had always been flacky too) until I added a decent UHF
antenna. Rabbit ears is about useless here. I'm still using the old
antenna for vhf although it really needs to be replaced too, but works
well with the one ATSC station on VHF here. So if you're really in a
fringe area, rabbit ears just isn't going to cut it. Worry more about your
antenna than the tuner. I suspect any PC tuner will work well with the
proper antenna for the location. I know the old cheap ones I use do.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

On Sep 20, 7:42 am, "Mr. Land" wrote:
On Sep 19, 3:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:



snip
Are you comparing the two using the same antenna are using the
sets antenna
vs. an indoor antenna.

I am comparing the two with exactly the same antenna with exactly
the
same orientation
(i.e. I am not moving the antenna at all, merely unplugging it from
the little TV then
plugging into the card's RF input.)

On the portable your likely tuning for a NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part
UHF. Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little
confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength
for.

This particular model card is what they call a "Hybrid" - it
actually
has two
tuners in it: a traditional analog VHF/UHF tuner, and a separate
ATSC
tuner. Each
tuner has its own RF input (each has a standard "F" antenna input
connector.)

My comparison consisted of plugging the antenna into the small TV's
antenna
input connector, then removing it and plugging it into the RF input
for the
card's analog tuner. Again, while the little TV was able to give
me a
fairly
decent picture, the card didn't even detect that channel. I know
the
card
isn't defective, because if I give it a strong enough signal, it
will
work.

I live in a fringe area, which is why I'm concerned with the RF
input
sensitivity of the card's tuners.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other
similar
tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna
for tuning.
It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength then
your
portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts to
low signal
strength

Hmm, I don't see how software's going to effect the tuner
sensitivity. Isn't that
more of a function of the design/quality of the first stage RF
amplifier inside
the tuners? I.e. wouldn't it be a function of the hardware design?
Unless they've
designed it such that the software can control the gain of the RF
stages, but
I kind of doubt they're that sophisticated.

Thanks for your reply.

If the little TV is NTSC only (HIGH probability) and you're comparing
to an ATSC tuner card, the test is meaningless. For example, in LA
where I live, KCBS is channel 2 analog and channel 60 digital -- 54 vs
750 MHz. rabbit ears are total nonsense at channel 60. Tell us your
zip code so we know what you're up against and maybe give useful
advice.

Here is a cross reference by market

http://www.nab.org/AM/ASPCode/DTVSta...TVStations.asp

GG

On Sep 20, 7:43 am, "Mr. Land" wrote:
snip
Without knowing his location, channel number of the DTV and power
level of the DTVs in his area, there is no way to make any kind
of
evaluation. A fellow video engineer I work with has the Hauppage
1600
and a 950 USB tuner and both work well. I have 3 ATI HDTV Wonder
cards
and they have 'normal' sensitivity. The comparison tuner is a
Samsung
SIR-T165.

GG

What is "normal" sensitivity? In terms of a dBm value?

Here are 2 photos of my antenna into a Tektronix 2712 spectrum
analyzer. Does this help? I have all the LA DTV pix

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/1333953816/

GG

"Mr. Land" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 19, 3:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message

ps.com...



Hi,

Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600). My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding, ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going back to
the store.

Thanks for any help!

Are you comparing the two using the same antenna are using the sets
antenna
vs. an indoor antenna.

I am comparing the two with exactly the same antenna with exactly the
same orientation
(i.e. I am not moving the antenna at all, merely unplugging it from
the little TV then
plugging into the card's RF input.)

On the portable your likely tuning for a NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF. Are
you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength for.

This particular model card is what they call a "Hybrid" - it actually
has two
tuners in it: a traditional analog VHF/UHF tuner, and a separate ATSC
tuner. Each
tuner has its own RF input (each has a standard "F" antenna input
connector.)

My comparison consisted of plugging the antenna into the small TV's
antenna
input connector, then removing it and plugging it into the RF input
for the
card's analog tuner. Again, while the little TV was able to give me a
fairly
decent picture, the card didn't even detect that channel. I know the
card
isn't defective, because if I give it a strong enough signal, it will
work.

I live in a fringe area, which is why I'm concerned with the RF input
sensitivity of the card's tuners.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other similar
tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna for
tuning.
It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength then your
portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts to low
signal
strength

Hmm, I don't see how software's going to effect the tuner
sensitivity. Isn't that
more of a function of the design/quality of the first stage RF
amplifier inside
the tuners? I.e. wouldn't it be a function of the hardware design?
Unless they've
designed it such that the software can control the gain of the RF
stages, but
I kind of doubt they're that sophisticated.

Thanks for your reply.


While allowing a television's NTSC tuner to function with a poor signal has
no draw backs aside from poor picture quality, a PC tuner requires a solid
signal so that during the process of converting the signal to a PEG file
that it doesn't lock the system with errors. Software differs in what is
considered a safe level to allow the software to display that the tuner see
a signal. Good signal strength helps avoid phantom type problems, recording
errors or system lockups. I've seen older style tuners that don't have an
PEG encoder be much more flexible.

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:44:36 -0400 jolt wrote:

| Aside from the technical issues there's the lack of supporting hardware to
| input a HD video source into a PC. The only common, practical, inexpensive
| way to record HD programing to a PC is the use of video capture cards with
| ATSC / QAM tuners. IMO were not going to see new option come to market
| unless or until the DRM are proven to secure complete control to the content
| owners. ATI's Ocur Cable Card tuners maybe of interest to some that are in
| the market for a solution that includes cable and won't object to buying a
| new PC to use the tuners.

There's nothing in law preventing someone from making a computer card
that accepts input from component, DVI, or HDMI, and compressing it to
what is practical to transfer over the PCI bus and store on disk. The
content industry would like such a law, but they have not gotten it.
But it really isn't that much of an issue for them since virtually all
HD programming will either be already compressed in the clear (e.g. OTA)
or will be capable of being DRM restricted (e.g. whatever-DVDs) so that
an HDCP compliant player will refuse to play in HD if the display unit
attached is not also HDCP compliant.

What is probably preventing such cards entering the consumer market is
the lack of market. Few people have any other HD content to be recorded
that would need these kinds of cards. Professional video producers and
broadcasters form a different "pro" market where stuff costs a lot. So
the content producers really won't have the much to worry about in this.
Maybe the internet will keep them busy.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

On Sep 20, 11:50 am, Digital Underbite wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:42:30 -0700, "Mr. Land"
wrote:

I live in a fringe area, which is why I'm concerned with the RF input
sensitivity of the card's tuners.

You're being silly about this whole thing. If you live in a "fringe area"
you shouldn't be wasting time with rabbit ears. If you go to
antennaweb.org and enter your address, you'll get a report on exactly what
you need to get good reception. You also wrote in a previous post that you
had a digital tuner box. If the tuner in that thing was more sensitive
than the Hauppauge card, feed the s-video and audio outs of the box to the
s-video and audio ins of the Hauppauge card. It will be clunky but work.
In the end though, you either install on the roof a real antenna (you might
even need a pre-amplifier) that can pull in the stations, or subscribe to
cable. The Hauppauge card can decode QAM.

I don't think it's "silly" to want to find out how well a product you
just purchased
can perform. I had no intention of trying to use this card with
rabbit ears - but
they comprise a pretty good acid test of the tuner sensitivity of this
card.

On Sep 20, 12:07 pm, Wes Newell wrote:
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:42:30 -0700, Mr. Land wrote:
On Sep 19, 3:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message
Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600). My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding, ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going back to
the store.

On the portable your likely tuning for a NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF. Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength for.

This particular model card is what they call a "Hybrid" - it actually
has two tuners in it: a traditional analog VHF/UHF tuner, and a separate
ATSC tuner. Each tuner has its own RF input (each has a standard "F"
antenna input connector.)

Just for the record both NTSC and ATSC use the same UHF/VHF freqs. If you
get a crappy NTSC picture, it's likely you won't even get an ATSC picture
assuming the signals for both channels are similar, which they rarely are.

My comparison consisted of plugging the antenna into the small TV's
antenna input connector, then removing it and plugging it into the RF
input for the card's analog tuner. Again, while the little TV was able
to give me a fairly decent picture, the card didn't even detect that
channel. I know the card isn't defective, because if I give it a strong
enough signal, it will work.

Who cares? Analog will be gone shortly and you don't want to even watch it
now if you have an ATSC tuner.

I live in a fringe area, which is why I'm concerned with the RF input
sensitivity of the card's tuners.

And you're testing with rabbit ears? That doesn't really make a hell of a
lot of sense.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other
similar tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna
for tuning. It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength
then your portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts
to low signal strength

Hmm, I don't see how software's going to effect the tuner sensitivity.
Isn't that more of a function of the design/quality of the first stage
RF amplifier inside the tuners? I.e. wouldn't it be a function of the
hardware design? Unless they've designed it such that the software can
control the gain of the RF stages, but I kind of doubt they're that
sophisticated.

I don't know about analog because I don't even have any tuners that work
with NTSC. Mine are all first generation ATSC circa 2002. I originally
bought the latest greatest (5th gen tuner at the time) at the latest
greatest price too I might add. After comparing to the old ones I could
get for under $20 now, I sold the expensive one. When you can buy 6 of
them for what the 1 expensive one cost... Anyway, for ATSC, The software
application does control the sensitivity of the card for ATSC lock. With
the software I use, you can set the timeout to wait for a lock, and the
signal strength needed to be considered a lockable station. The default
wasn't long enough for a couple of weak stations around here. Does all
software give you those options? Couldn't say. MythTV does. Key to any
ATSC reception is the antenna. I'm about 42 miles from the towers and with
my old uhf/vhf combo antenna I couldn't get one or two of the UHF ATSC
stations (NTSC uhf had always been flacky too) until I added a decent UHF
antenna. Rabbit ears is about useless here. I'm still using the old
antenna for vhf although it really needs to be replaced too, but works
well with the one ATSC station on VHF here. So if you're really in a
fringe area, rabbit ears just isn't going to cut it. Worry more about your
antenna than the tuner. I suspect any PC tuner will work well with the
proper antenna for the location. I know the old cheap ones I use do.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder?http://mythtv.orghttp://mysettopbox....yth.htmlUsenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My serverhttp://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 comparedhttp://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

Sorry, seeing as how your reply matches an earlier one basically
saying
"rabbit ears will never work!" - I should have probably made it more
obvious
up front that I was using rabbit ears to *test* the card - I have no
intention
of actually trying to use them for anything else.