Comparing DTV tuner cards (PCI) tuner sensitivity

Hi,

Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600). My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding, ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going back to
the store.

Thanks for any help!

Mr. Land ) wrote:
: Hi,

: Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
: group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600). My
: main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding, ATSC-
: capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

: But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
: point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn balun
: on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a fringe
: channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
: Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

: I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an attempt to
: find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
: strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

: Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
: products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
: especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't measure up
: to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going back to
: the store.

: Thanks for any help!

Buyer beware!

Cass

"Mr. Land" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hi,

Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600). My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding, ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going back to
the store.

Thanks for any help!


Are you comparing the two using the same antenna are using the sets antenna
vs. an indoor antenna. On the portable your likely tuning for a NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF. Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength for.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other similar
tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna for tuning.
It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength then your
portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts to low signal
strength

On Sep 19, 12:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message

ps.com...



Hi,

Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600).
My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding,
ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn
balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a
fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an
attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't
measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going
back to
the store.

Thanks for any help!

Are you comparing the two using the same antenna are using the sets
antenna
vs. an indoor antenna. On the portable your likely tuning for a
NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF.
Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little
confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength
for.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other
similar
tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna for
tuning.
It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength then
your
portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts to
low signal
strength

Without knowing his location, channel number of the DTV and power
level of the DTVs in his area, there is no way to make any kind of
evaluation. A fellow video engineer I work with has the Hauppage 1600
and a 950 USB tuner and both work well. I have 3 ATI HDTV Wonder cards
and they have 'normal' sensitivity. The comparison tuner is a Samsung
SIR-T165.

GG

On Sep 19, 1:00 pm, G-squared wrote:
On Sep 19, 12:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message

ups.com...



Hi,

Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600).
My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding,
ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn
balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a
fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an
attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't
measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going
back to
the store.

Thanks for any help!

Are you comparing the two using the same antenna are using the sets
antenna
vs. an indoor antenna. On the portable your likely tuning for a
NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF.
Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little
confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength
for.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other
similar
tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna for
tuning.
It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength then
your
portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts to
low signal
strength

Without knowing his location, channel number of the DTV and power
level of the DTVs in his area, there is no way to make any kind of
evaluation. A fellow video engineer I work with has the Hauppage 1600
and a 950 USB tuner and both work well. I have 3 ATI HDTV Wonder cards
and they have 'normal' sensitivity. The comparison tuner is a Samsung
SIR-T165.

GG

This first comment isn't for the first party rather it is something of
a
half baked idea. Perhaps a standalone tuner somehow hooked
to computer would be the way to go. Direct to a computer
monitor it would surely work. Though I'd want to be about to record
on HD for time shifting. I know this is half baked but is it possible?
I suppose I'd still need software even if someone got it hooked up or
set
up correctly. I'd think (without real basis) a standalone tuner would
likely be
better engineered and hence better better at picking up a signal.
Samsung makes one and there are others some .

I'd think the first party should consider a UHF antenna.

On Sep 20, 12:16 am, wrote:
On Sep 19, 1:00 pm, G-squared wrote:

snip
Without knowing his location, channel number of the DTV and power
level of the DTVs in his area, there is no way to make any kind
of
evaluation. A fellow video engineer I work with has the Hauppage
1600
and a 950 USB tuner and both work well. I have 3 ATI HDTV Wonder
cards
and they have 'normal' sensitivity. The comparison tuner is a
Samsung
SIR-T165.

GG

This first comment isn't for the first party rather it is something
of
a
half baked idea. Perhaps a standalone tuner somehow hooked
to computer would be the way to go. Direct to a computer
monitor it would surely work. Though I'd want to be about to record
on HD for time shifting. I know this is half baked but is it
possible?
I suppose I'd still need software even if someone got it hooked up
or
set
up correctly. I'd think (without real basis) a standalone tuner
would
likely be
better engineered and hence better better at picking up a signal.
Samsung makes one and there are others some .

I'd think the first party should consider a UHF antenna.

The problems with recording DTV is the data rate. While MPEG2 is not
overly high at 19.3 megabits/second, getting that stream into the
computer from an external tuner is a big chore. The tuner _could_ have
a firewire port which is easiest but more likely what comes out is
component analog or DVI / HDMI. Component analog need to be converted
back to digital - at 1.5 GIGABIT/second (550 gigabyte/hour). This is a
BIG deal to work with. The internal tuners simply hand over the MPEG2
stream at 20 megabits (75 times less data than your own converter).
DVI / HDMI is already digital but need to be handled at full data rate
so needs to be re-converted to MPEG 2 or 4. Bottom line - sell the
tuner on eBay to someone who needs it and get a computer tuner - PCI
or USB. FAR less aggravation and better results.

As far as better engineered - who can tell? Will it last a few years?
Is it sensitive anough? My first ATI tuner is 34 months old and doing
fine. Performance is reliable at this point. The other 2 ATIs were
from eBay so I don't know the total age, just that they've been here
for over a year and also doing fine.

GG

On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:37:04 -0700 G-squared wrote:

| The problems with recording DTV is the data rate. While MPEG2 is not
| overly high at 19.3 megabits/second, getting that stream into the
| computer from an external tuner is a big chore. The tuner _could_ have
| a firewire port which is easiest but more likely what comes out is
| component analog or DVI / HDMI. Component analog need to be converted
| back to digital - at 1.5 GIGABIT/second (550 gigabyte/hour). This is a
| BIG deal to work with. The internal tuners simply hand over the MPEG2
| stream at 20 megabits (75 times less data than your own converter).
| DVI / HDMI is already digital but need to be handled at full data rate
| so needs to be re-converted to MPEG 2 or 4. Bottom line - sell the
| tuner on eBay to someone who needs it and get a computer tuner - PCI
| or USB. FAR less aggravation and better results.

Agreed ... but one with a Firewire connection would also be suitable as
would one with an ethernet connection if a separate ethernet port is
available to keep it from being shared (100 mbps is enough for compressed
HD).


| As far as better engineered - who can tell? Will it last a few years?
| Is it sensitive anough? My first ATI tuner is 34 months old and doing
| fine. Performance is reliable at this point. The other 2 ATIs were
| from eBay so I don't know the total age, just that they've been here
| for over a year and also doing fine.

We buyers are always the victims in the perpetual struggle between the
engineering and research people trying to make things better, and the
marketing and financial people trying to make things worse.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

On Sep 19, 2:37 pm, (Cass Lewart) wrote:
Mr. Land ) wrote:

: Hi,

: Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
: group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600). My
: main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding, ATSC-
: capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

: But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
: point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn balun
: on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a fringe
: channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
: Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

: I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an attempt to
: find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
: strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

: Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
: products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
: especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't measure up
: to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going back to
: the store.

: Thanks for any help!

Buyer beware!

Cass

Thanks, but it's rather difficult to "beware" if you can't find
complete specs to compare products with.

On Sep 19, 3:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message

ps.com...



Hi,

Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600). My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding, ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going back to
the store.

Thanks for any help!

Are you comparing the two using the same antenna are using the sets antenna
vs. an indoor antenna.

I am comparing the two with exactly the same antenna with exactly the
same orientation
(i.e. I am not moving the antenna at all, merely unplugging it from
the little TV then
plugging into the card's RF input.)

On the portable your likely tuning for a NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF. Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength for.

This particular model card is what they call a "Hybrid" - it actually
has two
tuners in it: a traditional analog VHF/UHF tuner, and a separate ATSC
tuner. Each
tuner has its own RF input (each has a standard "F" antenna input
connector.)

My comparison consisted of plugging the antenna into the small TV's
antenna
input connector, then removing it and plugging it into the RF input
for the
card's analog tuner. Again, while the little TV was able to give me a
fairly
decent picture, the card didn't even detect that channel. I know the
card
isn't defective, because if I give it a strong enough signal, it will
work.

I live in a fringe area, which is why I'm concerned with the RF input
sensitivity of the card's tuners.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other similar
tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna for tuning.
It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength then your
portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts to low signal
strength

Hmm, I don't see how software's going to effect the tuner
sensitivity. Isn't that
more of a function of the design/quality of the first stage RF
amplifier inside
the tuners? I.e. wouldn't it be a function of the hardware design?
Unless they've
designed it such that the software can control the gain of the RF
stages, but
I kind of doubt they're that sophisticated.

Thanks for your reply.

On Sep 19, 4:00 pm, G-squared wrote:
On Sep 19, 12:40 pm, "jolt" wrote:
"Mr. Land" wrote in message

ups.com...



Hi,

Based on some excellent answers to my first noob question in this
group, I bought a PCI DTV tuner card (Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-1600).
My
main requirements we includes hardware-based MPEG2 encoding,
ATSC-
capable, and PCI (not PCIe) interface.

But the tuner sensitivity in this card seems pretty bad. Case in
point: using rabbit ears having 300 ohm twinlead with a 75-ohn
balun
on the end - an $80 10 inch television can tune and display a
fringe
channel in my area (somewhat snowy, but watchable), while the
Hauppauge cannot (behaves as if there's no signal at all).

I've searched the Hauppauge site for technical specs in an
attempt to
find this card's rated tuner sensitivity (i.e. minimum RF signal
strength required, for instance -75dBm) but can't find that.

Are there any sites which would have ratings like these for these
products? This seems like an important buying decision point,
especially for ATSC (OTA) tuners. If the Hauppauge doesn't
measure up
to other brands with respect to this specification, it's going
back to
the store.

Thanks for any help!

Are you comparing the two using the same antenna are using the sets
antenna
vs. an indoor antenna. On the portable your likely tuning for a
NTSC signal
which will be VHF and the ATSC channels are for the most part UHF.
Are you
comparing ATSC i.e. digital to NTSC analog, sorry it's a little
confusing
because you don't state which tuner you are checking the strength
for.

I've got a 1600 and the ATSC tuner seem to tune as well as other
similar
tuners the NTSC is hooked to cable so haven't tried an antenna for
tuning.
It is possible the tuners will require more signal strength then
your
portable TV set dependent somewhat on how the software reacts to
low signal
strength

Without knowing his location, channel number of the DTV and power
level of the DTVs in his area, there is no way to make any kind of
evaluation. A fellow video engineer I work with has the Hauppage 1600
and a 950 USB tuner and both work well. I have 3 ATI HDTV Wonder cards
and they have 'normal' sensitivity. The comparison tuner is a Samsung
SIR-T165.

GG

What is "normal" sensitivity? In terms of a dBm value?