My experience with over the air HDTV (from rec.radio.shortwave)

On Aug 22, 1:09 pm, Alan F wrote:
Ben H wrote:

"Alan F" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

Most people know the station by their analog broadcast channel, not
the call sign. The solution is to map the digital broadcast channel to
the analog channel for display on the box. The PSIP header provides the
channel mapping. In February, 2009, over 500 stations will switch their
digital channel back to their current analog channel.

This I didn't know. Since most all stations here are on VHF but their
digital channels are UHF, does this mean I will need a VHF antenna to
pick up the digital station come Feb 2009? If that is the case, a lot of
people are not aware of this and it's going to cause a lot of problems.
I wasn't even planning on getting any VHF antenna .

Ben

Depends on where you are. Many upper VHF analog stations are switching
to their upper VHF 7 to 13 (174 to 216 MHz) channel. Most stations on
low VHF in analog have chosen to keep their digital broadcast on UHF as
low VHF is prone to interference issues. At this point, there are only
37 full power stations that have opted to go to low VHF 2 to 6 across
the US in the post analog shutdown era. If you want to read a discussion
of this that has been going on for a while:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=823166.

The final digital channel list was recently published by the FCC for
the 1800+ full power stations athttp://www.fcc.gov/dtv/on August 6
with Appendix B Excel file the easiest to access. The list as posted
does not include call signs, but people can figure it out in most cases
from the city, state, and analog (NTSC) channel number.

However, many UHF antennas can pick up upper VHF stations if they are
close enough or depending on the design of the antenna. Upper VHF is 3x
the frequency of low VHF, so the wavelengths are shorter and closer to
UHF 14-69 (470 to 805 MHz) than low VHF. The Channel Master 4228 8 bay
bowtie is a directional UHF antenna, but it's wide back screen offers ok
performance for upper VHF. See the UHF antenna for VHF chart down the
page athttp://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html. Winegard
offers several upper VHF only antennas which will likely be popular in 2009.

One reason I always ask for the zip code when someone asks here or on
avsforum.com for antenna advice is so I can look up whether the digital
stations are all currently on UHF or not and whether any are switching
to VHF in February, 2009. Yes, a lot of people who brought small UHF
antennas will run into problems in 2009 because the transition process
was/is poorly understood. The plan has been since circa 1998 to go to
VHF 2 to UHF 51 for digital TV broadcasts, but a common misconception is
the digital ATSC broadcasts are and will be done only on UHF. Not so.

Thanks. Say, my zip is 98034. Day before yesterday I bought a 4221
Multi-bow UHF antenna. Havn't received it yet but it's in transit.
Tell me it'll work with all the networks in my area even after the
transition.. ;-)

Thanks,

Ben

On Aug 22, 5:06 am, "Tantalust" wrote:
"American Insurgent" wrote in message

ups.com...

I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box,

Okay, let's start with:

-Doesn't your new Polaroid TV already have an ATSC tuner?

-Return the cable and go to monoprice.com

-Return the indoor antenna and get a $24 Channelmaster 3021 [4221] and mount
it in the attic or outside.


I got the indoor antenna because I haven't yet convinced my
grandfather to give me the antenna mast with rotor he's no longer
using since he switched to cable. The antenna on that one is shot, so
I will be buying a new one. The Polaroid TV only has an NTSC tuner.
I'm limited as to space, so plunking down money for a 30 inch TV (that
I have no room for) was not an option. My understanding is, the bigger
the screen, the better HD experience you will have. A home theater
system with a 50 inch screen and theatre quality surround sound is not
my thing.

On Aug 22, 12:33 pm, "Rick Evans" wrote:
"American Insurgent" wrote in message

ups.com...I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That
includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70
for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable
called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax).

For $650 you could have gotten a 32" LCD HDTV with a
built-in
ATSC(digital) receiver. Aside from the bigger picture you
would only
have to add an antenna(assuming you don't already have a
good UHF
antenna).

Unfortunately I don't have room for a 32 inch TV. I didn't expect the
cable to be so much. It's a Rocketfish, not a Monster (the Monster
cables are kept in a different section of the store, and run nearly
$200 for HDMI!). I was using cable previously, but Comcast's HD
service leaves a lot to be desired (as a thread here notes) and I
wasn't watching most of the 80 channels that they forced me to buy.

On Aug 22, 1:09 pm, Alan F wrote:
Ben H wrote:

"Alan F" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

Most people know the station by their analog broadcast channel, not
the call sign. The solution is to map the digital broadcast channel to
the analog channel for display on the box. The PSIP header provides the
channel mapping. In February, 2009, over 500 stations will switch their
digital channel back to their current analog channel.

This I didn't know. Since most all stations here are on VHF but their
digital channels are UHF, does this mean I will need a VHF antenna to
pick up the digital station come Feb 2009? If that is the case, a lot of
people are not aware of this and it's going to cause a lot of problems.
I wasn't even planning on getting any VHF antenna .

Ben

Depends on where you are. Many upper VHF analog stations are switching
to their upper VHF 7 to 13 (174 to 216 MHz) channel. Most stations on
low VHF in analog have chosen to keep their digital broadcast on UHF as
low VHF is prone to interference issues. At this point, there are only
37 full power stations that have opted to go to low VHF 2 to 6 across
the US in the post analog shutdown era. If you want to read a discussion
of this that has been going on for a while:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=823166.

The final digital channel list was recently published by the FCC for
the 1800+ full power stations athttp://www.fcc.gov/dtv/on August 6
with Appendix B Excel file the easiest to access. The list as posted
does not include call signs, but people can figure it out in most cases
from the city, state, and analog (NTSC) channel number.

However, many UHF antennas can pick up upper VHF stations if they are
close enough or depending on the design of the antenna. Upper VHF is 3x
the frequency of low VHF, so the wavelengths are shorter and closer to
UHF 14-69 (470 to 805 MHz) than low VHF. The Channel Master 4228 8 bay
bowtie is a directional UHF antenna, but it's wide back screen offers ok
performance for upper VHF. See the UHF antenna for VHF chart down the
page athttp://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html. Winegard
offers several upper VHF only antennas which will likely be popular in 2009.

One reason I always ask for the zip code when someone asks here or on
avsforum.com for antenna advice is so I can look up whether the digital
stations are all currently on UHF or not and whether any are switching
to VHF in February, 2009. Yes, a lot of people who brought small UHF
antennas will run into problems in 2009 because the transition process
was/is poorly understood. The plan has been since circa 1998 to go to
VHF 2 to UHF 51 for digital TV broadcasts, but a common misconception is
the digital ATSC broadcasts are and will be done only on UHF. Not so.

Alan F
I bought an antenna that can do VHF as well as UHF. It has beefy
rabbit ears for VHF. I had a classic style indoor antenna laying
around, but it was a Radio Shack and its performance on analog left
something to be desired. I was looking at antennas at Best Buy and
noticed that they were just regular antennas that had "HDTV" on the
box. I bought the one that looked least like a plain old rabbit ears
and loop antenna. It's a Terk. An outdoor antenna is in the works, but
it may be a few more months. My location is Sacramento, California, on
the north side of town which is notorious for signal problems since
all the transmitters are down in the delta near Stockton. There's even
a couple tx's on Mount Diablo, which is simply too far for an indoor
antenna. I understand that channel 10 (KXTV) will go from HD channel
61 to HD channel 10 in 2009.

"American Insurgent" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Aug 22, 5:06 am, "Tantalust" wrote:
"American Insurgent" wrote in message
ups.com...
I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:
I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box,
Okay, let's start with:
-Doesn't your new Polaroid TV already have an ATSC tuner?
-Return the cable and go to monoprice.com

-Return the indoor antenna and get a $24 Channelmaster 3021 [4221] and
mount
it in the attic or outside.
I got the indoor antenna because I haven't yet convinced my
grandfather to give me the antenna mast with rotor he's no longer
using since he switched to cable. The antenna on that one is shot, so
I will be buying a new one. The Polaroid TV only has an NTSC tuner.
I'm limited as to space, so plunking down money for a 30 inch TV (that
I have no room for) was not an option. My understanding is, the bigger
the screen, the better HD experience you will have. A home theater
system with a 50 inch screen and theatre quality surround sound is not
my thing.

Okay, hope you get it working good. It's worth it.

Have you seen the (5,000+ posts) Sacramento OTA thread on AVS forum? There
may be some good pointers in there, too.

Ben H wrote:

Thanks. Say, my zip is 98034. Day before yesterday I bought a 4221
Multi-bow UHF antenna. Havn't received it yet but it's in transit.
Tell me it'll work with all the networks in my area even after the
transition.. ;-)

Thanks,

Ben

The good news is that the Channel Master 4221 is a very good UHF
antenna which does have some performance for the upper end of upper VHF,
mainly VHF 10 to 13. It can get VHF 7, 8, 9 if the signal is strong
enough. I have a CM 4221 4 bay bowtie in my attic and I get good picture
quality for the Washington DC analog stations on WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 at 16
miles. It is very poor for analog VHF WBAL 11 & WJZ 13 in Baltimore at
around 43 miles and non-line of sight.

I used antennaweb to get a list of your digital local stations in the
Seattle area, but I sorted the list by city to make it easier to look
up. I added the post analog shutdown final channel assignment in
brackets on the right.

KWPX-DT 33.1 ION BELLEVUE WA 126° 18.2 32 [33]
KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 126° 18.2 50 [50]
KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 212° 9.2 31 [31]
KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 213° 9.3 38 [38]
KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 212° 9.2 48 [48]
KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 214° 9.3 39 [39]
KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 198° 8.7 41 [ 9] **
KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 198° 8.7 25 [25]
KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 126° 18.2 44 [44]
KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 198° 8.7 36 [11] **
KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 230° 30.6 18 [13] **
KTBW-DT 14.1 TBN TACOMA WA 229° 30.1 14 [14]
KBTC-DT 28.1 PBS TACOMA WA 188° 33.7 27 [27]
KWDK-DT 42.1 DAY TACOMA WA 126° 18.2 42 [42]

Three of your local stations: KCTS-DT PBS 9, KSTW-DT CW 11, and
KCPQ-DT Fox 13 are switching back to their upper VHF channels. The good
news is that you are pretty close to KCTS-DT and KSTW-DT so the CM 4221
is likely to get those. KCPQ-DT Fox 13 at 30 miles is the challenging
one, but the CM 4221 has good gain for VHF 13.

Your stations are spread around in azimuth, so the CM 4221 is a good
choice for that situation. I get 17 digital stations in five different
direction clusters with my CM 4221, so I'm happy with it. I would give
the CM 4221 a shot, although given the dense woods of the Pacific NW,
you want to get as much height as you can. You will also have to
experiment with the aim, perhaps starting with aiming it at 230°. Keep a
mental image of this beam pattern
(http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html) in your head when
tweaking the aim. Check the analog picture quality for the upper VHF
stations, if it is ok, you may be set for 2009.

If you eventually need more gain for the upper VHF stations, check the
Winegard upper VHF antenna at http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhf.htm. I
expect we will see something similar from Channel Master and others by
then. Winegard recently dropped their smaller YA-6713 upper VHF antenna;
maybe they are coming out with another model.

If you want to get deeper into predicted signal strength, try
www.tvfool.com.

Good luck.
Alan F

"Alan F" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

(http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html) in your head when
tweaking the aim. Check the analog picture quality for the upper VHF
stations, if it is ok, you may be set for 2009.

If you eventually need more gain for the upper VHF stations, check
the
Winegard upper VHF antenna at http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhf.htm.
I
expect we will see something similar from Channel Master and others by
then. Winegard recently dropped their smaller YA-6713 upper VHF
antenna;
maybe they are coming out with another model.

If you want to get deeper into predicted signal strength, try
www.tvfool.com.

Alan, you're a wealth of information. Thanks!

I went to tvfool.com and entered my address. It pretty much agrees with
what I get now using rabbit ears with UHF antenna loop. Channel 13, FOX,
and channel 9, PBS are of concern to me as I need to get both those or I
can't cut cable. Right now tvfool has me in the green for PBS but in the
yellow for FOX. Using the tv top antenna that I have now, 13 is by far
the hardest to get. I can get it but it cuts in and out. I bought the
new antenna to alleviate that. BTW, I didn't buy the 4228 because it
won't fit through my attic door otherwise I would have gone with that
one. Question, do you know if the 4221 antenna's can be put in series
with each pointed a slightly different direction to help obtain better
reception?

Ben

American Insurgent wrote:

I bought an antenna that can do VHF as well as UHF. It has beefy
rabbit ears for VHF. I had a classic style indoor antenna laying
around, but it was a Radio Shack and its performance on analog left
something to be desired. I was looking at antennas at Best Buy and
noticed that they were just regular antennas that had "HDTV" on the
box. I bought the one that looked least like a plain old rabbit ears
and loop antenna. It's a Terk. An outdoor antenna is in the works, but
it may be a few more months. My location is Sacramento, California, on
the north side of town which is notorious for signal problems since
all the transmitters are down in the delta near Stockton. There's even
a couple tx's on Mount Diablo, which is simply too far for an indoor
antenna. I understand that channel 10 (KXTV) will go from HD channel
61 to HD channel 10 in 2009.

Plugging in a zip code for north end of Sacramento, CA, 95835, places
the stations listed under Sacramento & Stockton locations at around 27
to 30 miles to the south at ~ 163° in azimuth. (Easier if you just
provided a zip!). Pretty far for an indoor antenna, unless you have a
good line of sight to the towers.

All of the digital stations in your area are currently on UHF. Two of
the stations will be moving to upper VHF in February, 2009. KXTV-DT ABC
10 is moving from UHF 61 to VHF 10 as you mentioned. There has been an
interesting change however for KVIE-DT PBS 6. In the 2006 post shutdown
channel list, KVIE-DT was going to go to VHF 6 low. In the final channel
list, the station has managed to get off of VHF low and has been granted
authority to broadcast on VHF 9 (probably on the same tower as KXTV-DT
10 to eliminate interference). This is good news as people won't need to
get a big antenna for low VHF coverage.

While waiting on the outdoor antenna, elevate the indoor antenna as
much as you can and aim the open face of the UHF loop towards the
stations. Putting the antenna high up in a window with a clear view
towards SES might do the trick. All of your stations are in the same
direction and you need UHF and upper VHF coverage. If you buy a new
antenna, the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay bowtie would be a good choice.
It's ~$55 plus shipping on-line at a site such as solidsignal.com. The
CM 4228 is heavy, so if it goes outdoors, a sturdy mount is a must. The
CM 4221 is also an option, but you may need to add a upper VHF antenna
in 2009 (or may not).

Good luck,
Alan F

Ben H wrote:
"Alan F" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

(http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html) in your head when
tweaking the aim. Check the analog picture quality for the upper VHF
stations, if it is ok, you may be set for 2009.

If you eventually need more gain for the upper VHF stations, check
the
Winegard upper VHF antenna at http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhf.htm.
I
expect we will see something similar from Channel Master and others by
then. Winegard recently dropped their smaller YA-6713 upper VHF
antenna;
maybe they are coming out with another model.

If you want to get deeper into predicted signal strength, try
www.tvfool.com.

Alan, you're a wealth of information. Thanks!

I went to tvfool.com and entered my address. It pretty much agrees with
what I get now using rabbit ears with UHF antenna loop. Channel 13, FOX,
and channel 9, PBS are of concern to me as I need to get both those or I
can't cut cable. Right now tvfool has me in the green for PBS but in the
yellow for FOX. Using the tv top antenna that I have now, 13 is by far
the hardest to get. I can get it but it cuts in and out. I bought the
new antenna to alleviate that. BTW, I didn't buy the 4228 because it
won't fit through my attic door otherwise I would have gone with that
one. Question, do you know if the 4221 antenna's can be put in series
with each pointed a slightly different direction to help obtain better
reception?

Ben

Ben, the net gain improvement of the CM 4221 will be around a 8 to 12 dB
increase over the old UHF loop. Putting the CM 4221 outside or up in the
attic to get height and clear obstructions in the house will improve the
situation even more. If you can get the KCPQ-DT Fox 13 station with
dropouts with the UHF loop, you should be fine with the CM 4221. Check
the net gain charts for B (CM 4221) versus J (small loop) at
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html.

Since you are putting the antenna in the attic, I suggest you don't
lock it down in place until you have found a good spot as attics have
dead zones. My attic sure as heck does for the weaker distant stations.
My CM 4221 is mounted on a large piece of flat scrap wood using a $5
attic mounting bracket I got at Lowes. The flat wood allows me to move
the antenna around in the attic by sliding it across the floor beams. I
moved it around until I found a good spot and left it there. I've done
some more tweaking since then as the movable flat base makes it easy to
experiment with location and aim.

Good luck,
Alan F

American Insurgent wrote (in part):

. . . a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax).

I didn't expect the
cable to be so much. It's a Rocketfish, not a Monster (the Monster
cables are kept in a different section of the store, and run nearly
$200 for HDMI!).

Still way too much for an HDMI cable a few feet long. Return it if
you can and get one from monoprice.com. Should be under $10 unless
you need a long one.

I was using cable previously, but Comcast's HD
service leaves a lot to be desired (as a thread here notes) and I
wasn't watching most of the 80 channels that they forced me to buy.

OTA is definitely the best way to get broadcast stations if you can,
but if you're going to keep any level of cable service, you should be
aware that you don't have to buy a digital package or use their
digital STB to get whatever digital broadcast channels they carry.
You just need a tuner that can handle clear (unencrypted) QAM, the
modulation used for digital cable. You're paying for those with even
the minimum cable package, often called Basic.

Oh, and about the Terk antenna mentioned in the original post: I've
read some derogatory comments about Terk compared with other brands,
but I've also read that at least some models are easy to assemble
incorrectly, and if you do it right they work about as well as similar
ones.

Del Mibbler