My experience with over the air HDTV (from rec.radio.shortwave)

I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70 for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax). I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two
cases, the second channel is a 24/7 weather channel with local weather
reports; in a third case the Fox station has a music video service
called "The Tube" on their second channel. The PBS station has an
amazing THREE stations on one channel! One is their regular channel,
one is a second channel that is usually available only on cable, and a
third is V-me, a PBS service for Latinos in Spanish. The Univision
(Spanish language) channel supposedly has an HDTV service, but there's
nothing there.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an
outdoor antenna on a pole I'd get it. Two channels, including a local
weather channel and the HDTV signal of a second tier station, are weak
and keep cutting out. If this is HDTV after years of government
pressure and millions spent, it's clearly not ready for prime time so
to speak. Hopefully by switch time they'll have ironed out the bugs.

My setup at first wouldn't pick up several stations with the slew
buttons; I had to download an HDTV channel list off the net, then
manually enter those stations into memory. Even more confusing, the
Samsung box lists channels not by their HDTV assignment, but by their
standard def channel, a hyphen, and a subchannel, ex. 6-1, 6-2, and
6-3 instead of Channel 53. You can USE the HD channel, but it switches
you right back to this hyphenated system on the display. I suppose
this is to ease the transition, and to allow subchannels, but you are
left not only with two channel numbers for one station but something
less than true HDTV, since stations force two or three services onto
one HD channel. I doubt that was the FCC's intention.

I suspect that when people realize that they're being forced into
HDTV-
with beaucoup dollar amounts required to switch-only to get standard
def, they'll be mad. I'm an electronics geek anyway, so for me it was
worth it. But Joe Sixpack will spend this sort of outlay and find his
HD experience reduced so that his local TV station can bring him 24
hour weather or music videos, and start talking a blue streak.
---------

Updates to this: Univision is only receivable on channel 18 IF the
antenna is pointed a certain way. Supposedly, Telemundo is on channel
62, but the signal is so far away that I can't get it. There's also a
four channel Christian service (KSPX) on channel 48. My antenna is a
Terk UHF/VHF, purchased at Best Buy.

Overall, since I don't watch much cable anyway, I'm happy with OTA
HDTV in general. Comments?

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:20:41 -0700, American Insurgent wrote:

I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70 for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax). I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

The sales people must have drawn straws when they saw you coming.:-)
Here's what you should have got.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=5623471

And there's no such thing as an HDTV antenna. It's just an antenna. If you
already had an old UHF/VHF antenna, you didn't need another one. If you'd
have bought a Tv with a built in ATSC tuner, you also wouldn't have needed
the HDTV STB or the HDMI cable. And you can buy HDMI cables for under $10.
Want the news in HD, watch NBC. The blank space at the top of the screen
on commercials is supposed to be there. That's how the commercial was
made. You just wouldn't have had the side bars on a non-widescreen set. Of
course, you can zoom those type shows to full screen without losing aspect
ratios.

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

Well, wtf do you expect buying the wrong antenna for your situation. The
best TV in the world will look like crap with the wrong antenna for the
location.

Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two
cases, the second channel is a 24/7 weather channel with local weather
reports; in a third case the Fox station has a music video service
called "The Tube" on their second channel. The PBS station has an
amazing THREE stations on one channel! One is their regular channel, one
is a second channel that is usually available only on cable, and a third
is V-me, a PBS service for Latinos in Spanish. The Univision (Spanish
language) channel supposedly has an HDTV service, but there's nothing
there.

It's not unusual for a DT station to have an SD subchannel. Most do here
too. And one channel here has 5 SD subchannrels. That's just one advantage
to digital TV.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an
outdoor antenna on a pole I'd get it. Two channels, including a local
weather channel and the HDTV signal of a second tier station, are weak
and keep cutting out. If this is HDTV after years of government pressure
and millions spent, it's clearly not ready for prime time so to speak.
Hopefully by switch time they'll have ironed out the bugs.

The only thing not ready for prime time is your antenna. Wise up. You
should have asked here (or at least read some post) before you bought
anything. You got totally screwed because of your own ignorance.

Blah blah blah deleted.

Updates to this: Univision is only receivable on channel 18 IF the
antenna is pointed a certain way. Supposedly, Telemundo is on channel
62, but the signal is so far away that I can't get it. There's also a
four channel Christian service (KSPX) on channel 48. My antenna is a
Terk UHF/VHF, purchased at Best Buy.

Overall, since I don't watch much cable anyway, I'm happy with OTA HDTV
in general. Comments?

Just one. If Best Buy has a return policy, get your money back, then come
back here and get some help with what to buy.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

"American Insurgent" wrote in message
ups.com...
I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box,

Okay, let's start with:

-Doesn't your new Polaroid TV already have an ATSC tuner?

-Return the cable and go to monoprice.com

-Return the indoor antenna and get a $24 Channelmaster 3021 [4221] and mount
it in the attic or outside.

American Insurgent wrote:
I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70 for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax).

I add my two bits here as well.

Since you were buying a new HD TV, you should have combined the $290
for the TV, $180 for the Samsung DTB-H260F (excellent ATSC tuner &
useful for challenging multipath or weak signal situations, but not
needed in most cases if the TV has a good built-in ATSC tuner), $65 for
the way overpriced (Monster?) HDMI cable and got a bigger and better TV.


I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

But NBC Nightly news is in HD - some of it anyway. Yes, it is not all
HD yet - prime time scripted shows are almost all HD (Scrubs is about
the last holdout), it is the cheap SD game & reality shows that hold
down the amount of HD in prime time. Sports - football, baseball, golf,
etc - are increasingly all HD. We will see a lot more HD on the major
broadcast stations outside of prime time & late night over the next year
or two because Pathfire, the main distribution system for syndicated
programming, is just about to complete the upgrade of the their system
for HD. Stations will have to buy HD servers & tape machines, so it
won't happen everywhere at once, but eventually we will get daytime
programs in HD (Oprah and Dr. Phil in HD! Ok, I grant you that are
drawbacks to this HD conversion) and more & more local news in HD as well.

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

You need a better antenna setup. An indoor antenna is usually only
recommended if you are in a strong signal area for the broadcast
stations. In the wooded areas, that may be only 5 to 10 miles. Check
www.antennaweb.org for your digital stations and recommended antenna
level. Digital stations mostly broadcast on UHF, but there are currently
several hundred digital stations on VHF. There will be a lot more
digital stations on upper VHF 7 to 13 after the analog shutdown on
February 17, 2009 so people need to check if they need an antenna which
can get upper VHF as well for digital reception.

If you provide your zip code, I will be happy to provide some advice on
an antenna setup. At medium ranges, you can often put the antenna in the
attic. I have a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie ($40 online including
shipping) in my attic and get stations up to 46 miles away just fine.


Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two
cases, the second channel is a 24/7 weather channel with local weather
reports; in a third case the Fox station has a music video service
called "The Tube" on their second channel. The PBS station has an
amazing THREE stations on one channel! One is their regular channel,
one is a second channel that is usually available only on cable, and a
third is V-me, a PBS service for Latinos in Spanish. The Univision
(Spanish language) channel supposedly has an HDTV service, but there's
nothing there.

One key reason for switching to digital broadcasting is the ability to
squeeze more stations into a smaller part of the spectrum and to provide
for multiple sub-channels. Most stations with HD now have one SD
sub-channel to go with their HD sub-channel. One SD sub-channel such as
a mostly static or slow update weather channel does not hurt their HD
picture quality very much at all. Adding more SD sub-channels does hurt
HD picture quality, but all we can do is complain to the station.

Univision is SD only. Most of their programming, AFAIK, comes from
Mexico and South America which is in very early stages of upgrading to
HD. Univision will probably eventually switch to HD, but not for quite a
while.

There are seven broadcast networks with HD programming: ABC, CBS, Fox,
NBC, PBS, CW, My Network. TBN, the religious network, has announced they
will be providing a HD feed on their digital stations by the end of 2007.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an
outdoor antenna on a pole I'd get it. Two channels, including a local
weather channel and the HDTV signal of a second tier station, are weak
and keep cutting out. If this is HDTV after years of government
pressure and millions spent, it's clearly not ready for prime time so
to speak. Hopefully by switch time they'll have ironed out the bugs.

Get a better antenna.

My setup at first wouldn't pick up several stations with the slew
buttons; I had to download an HDTV channel list off the net, then
manually enter those stations into memory. Even more confusing, the
Samsung box lists channels not by their HDTV assignment, but by their
standard def channel, a hyphen, and a subchannel, ex. 6-1, 6-2, and
6-3 instead of Channel 53. You can USE the HD channel, but it switches
you right back to this hyphenated system on the display. I suppose
this is to ease the transition, and to allow subchannels, but you are
left not only with two channel numbers for one station but something
less than true HDTV, since stations force two or three services onto
one HD channel. I doubt that was the FCC's intention.

Most people know the station by their analog broadcast channel, not
the call sign. The solution is to map the digital broadcast channel to
the analog channel for display on the box. The PSIP header provides the
channel mapping. In February, 2009, over 500 stations will switch their
digital channel back to their current analog channel.

The FCC is not mandating HD, but only digital broadcasting to free up
spectrum so they can auction off UHF 52 to 69 (minus the 24 MHz that
will be reserved for new public safety systems). It is up to the
stations and the networks to decide how they want to split up their 19.4
MB/second ATSC broadcast signal. Do a search for ATSC & PSIP to learn
some of the technical stuff, if you want.

If you want the PR stuff: http://www.dtv.gov/

I suspect that when people realize that they're being forced into
HDTV-
with beaucoup dollar amounts required to switch-only to get standard
def, they'll be mad.

In 2008, the standard def "converter" boxes are due to be made
available for around $50 with a coupon program. These boxes will be
stripped down ATSC tuners (hopefully 5th or 6th generation) that will
output SD signals on co-axial, composite, and S-Video. Many people -
those with decent antennas - will be amazed at the improved picture
quality and the number of new channel options. Many will be confused by
the whole thing, but you can help by assisting your neighbors and
friends in the conversion process.

Whew, long reply.

Alan F

"American Insurgent" wrote in message
ups.com...
I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV,

IT sounds like you got a monitor not a TV if you needed a tuner. HD on a
19" screen isn't going to look all that spectacular anyway.

You're an absolute idiot.


"American Insurgent" wrote in message
ups.com...
I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70 for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax). I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including
ABC World News. This results in blank space on the sides. Some
commercials are in standard def, which on HDTV makes additional blank
space on the top and bottom, giving an effect of the signal "floating"
on a sea of darkness.

Furthermore, the signal was jerky, like streaming internet video, with
frequent pixelation. I even lost the signal for a few seconds, after
which I checked to see if there was a "trip wire" in the settings that
I could turn down or off. I once had a Panasonic TV that would give
you a blue screen if the signal got too low. That I could turn off;
this I can't. If the signal gets too low with the Samsung STB, it will
give you a "weak signal" screensaver.

Some stations are squeezing two signals on one HDTV channel. In two
cases, the second channel is a 24/7 weather channel with local weather
reports; in a third case the Fox station has a music video service
called "The Tube" on their second channel. The PBS station has an
amazing THREE stations on one channel! One is their regular channel,
one is a second channel that is usually available only on cable, and a
third is V-me, a PBS service for Latinos in Spanish. The Univision
(Spanish language) channel supposedly has an HDTV service, but there's
nothing there.

Some reports have said that HDTV from different cities is available in
Sacramento; my antenna won't pick it up. I suppose that if I had an
outdoor antenna on a pole I'd get it. Two channels, including a local
weather channel and the HDTV signal of a second tier station, are weak
and keep cutting out. If this is HDTV after years of government
pressure and millions spent, it's clearly not ready for prime time so
to speak. Hopefully by switch time they'll have ironed out the bugs.

My setup at first wouldn't pick up several stations with the slew
buttons; I had to download an HDTV channel list off the net, then
manually enter those stations into memory. Even more confusing, the
Samsung box lists channels not by their HDTV assignment, but by their
standard def channel, a hyphen, and a subchannel, ex. 6-1, 6-2, and
6-3 instead of Channel 53. You can USE the HD channel, but it switches
you right back to this hyphenated system on the display. I suppose
this is to ease the transition, and to allow subchannels, but you are
left not only with two channel numbers for one station but something
less than true HDTV, since stations force two or three services onto
one HD channel. I doubt that was the FCC's intention.

I suspect that when people realize that they're being forced into
HDTV-
with beaucoup dollar amounts required to switch-only to get standard
def, they'll be mad. I'm an electronics geek anyway, so for me it was
worth it. But Joe Sixpack will spend this sort of outlay and find his
HD experience reduced so that his local TV station can bring him 24
hour weather or music videos, and start talking a blue streak.
---------

Updates to this: Univision is only receivable on channel 18 IF the
antenna is pointed a certain way. Supposedly, Telemundo is on channel
62, but the signal is so far away that I can't get it. There's also a
four channel Christian service (KSPX) on channel 48. My antenna is a
Terk UHF/VHF, purchased at Best Buy.

Overall, since I don't watch much cable anyway, I'm happy with OTA
HDTV in general. Comments?

American Insurgent ) wrote:
: I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

: I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That includes
: $290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70 for an
: HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable called an
: HDMI cable (in addition to tax). I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
: was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV, including

You should have bought a HDTV with a built-in ATSC tuner to
avoid a set top box and and
HDMI cable for around $10 on the web. You also overpaid the
indoo antenna Good OTA reception depends
on your location and can be stunning.

Cass

"Alan F" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

Most people know the station by their analog broadcast channel, not
the call sign. The solution is to map the digital broadcast channel to
the analog channel for display on the box. The PSIP header provides the
channel mapping. In February, 2009, over 500 stations will switch their
digital channel back to their current analog channel.


This I didn't know. Since most all stations here are on VHF but their
digital channels are UHF, does this mean I will need a VHF antenna to pick
up the digital station come Feb 2009? If that is the case, a lot of people
are not aware of this and it's going to cause a lot of problems. I wasn't
even planning on getting any VHF antenna .

Ben

"American Insurgent" wrote in message
ups.com...
I posted the following in rec.radio.shortwave a few days ago:

I recently plunked down $650 to be able to get HDTV. That
includes
$290 Polaroid 19" LCD HDTV, $180 Samsung HDTV set top box, $70
for an
HDTV indoor antenna, and a whopping $65 for a special cable
called an
HDMI cable (in addition to tax).
For $650 you could have gotten a 32" LCD HDTV with a
built-in
ATSC(digital) receiver. Aside from the bigger picture you
would only
have to add an antenna(assuming you don't already have a
good UHF
antenna).

I watched some OTA HDTV tonight, and
was disappointed. Many programs are not yet in full HDTV,
including
ABC World News.

Call ABC and tell them they have a week to go HD or you're
dumping
Charlie for Brian. ;-)


Overall, since I don't watch much cable anyway, I'm happy with
OTA
HDTV in general. Comments?

I don't have cable. I consider my switch to digital more
than worth it.
My local PBS has two channels 2 and 44-DT. 2-DT is split
into PBS HD
and local SD. 44-DT has four subchannels including World. My
local
ABC affiliate does its local news in HD which is stunning.
Sports is
where HD tends to shine especially with wide stadium shots.

The PBS HD channel has a lot of good stuff that doesn't
appear on
the SD channel. Nova and Nature are worth rewatching in HD
even if
you've seen them in SD.

I did have to experiment with amplified indoor antennas but
finally
found one that requires minimal orientating and
repositioning. I now get
digital stations that were unwatchable in analog.

I'm pleased.


--

Hilton Evans
---------------------------------------------------------------
Lon -71° 04' 35.3"
Lat +42° 11' 06.7"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Webcam Astroimaging
http://mysite.verizon.net/hiltonevan...troimaging.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
http://www.chempensoftware.com

Ben H wrote:

"Alan F" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

Most people know the station by their analog broadcast channel, not
the call sign. The solution is to map the digital broadcast channel to
the analog channel for display on the box. The PSIP header provides the
channel mapping. In February, 2009, over 500 stations will switch their
digital channel back to their current analog channel.


This I didn't know. Since most all stations here are on VHF but their
digital channels are UHF, does this mean I will need a VHF antenna to
pick up the digital station come Feb 2009? If that is the case, a lot of
people are not aware of this and it's going to cause a lot of problems.
I wasn't even planning on getting any VHF antenna .

Ben

Depends on where you are. Many upper VHF analog stations are switching
to their upper VHF 7 to 13 (174 to 216 MHz) channel. Most stations on
low VHF in analog have chosen to keep their digital broadcast on UHF as
low VHF is prone to interference issues. At this point, there are only
37 full power stations that have opted to go to low VHF 2 to 6 across
the US in the post analog shutdown era. If you want to read a discussion
of this that has been going on for a while:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=823166.

The final digital channel list was recently published by the FCC for
the 1800+ full power stations at http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/ on August 6
with Appendix B Excel file the easiest to access. The list as posted
does not include call signs, but people can figure it out in most cases
from the city, state, and analog (NTSC) channel number.

However, many UHF antennas can pick up upper VHF stations if they are
close enough or depending on the design of the antenna. Upper VHF is 3x
the frequency of low VHF, so the wavelengths are shorter and closer to
UHF 14-69 (470 to 805 MHz) than low VHF. The Channel Master 4228 8 bay
bowtie is a directional UHF antenna, but it's wide back screen offers ok
performance for upper VHF. See the UHF antenna for VHF chart down the
page at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html. Winegard
offers several upper VHF only antennas which will likely be popular in 2009.

One reason I always ask for the zip code when someone asks here or on
avsforum.com for antenna advice is so I can look up whether the digital
stations are all currently on UHF or not and whether any are switching
to VHF in February, 2009. Yes, a lot of people who brought small UHF
antennas will run into problems in 2009 because the transition process
was/is poorly understood. The plan has been since circa 1998 to go to
VHF 2 to UHF 51 for digital TV broadcasts, but a common misconception is
the digital ATSC broadcasts are and will be done only on UHF. Not so.

Alan F