belkin power conditioner for my Samsung LCD - is it worth it???

"w_tom" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Aug 11, 1:37 pm, "Captain Midnight" wrote:
Quality of the average power supply is on a par with the average surge
protector. Have no idea why you think they are all high quality. A large
percentage of computer PS don't even put out their rated output let
alone
have properly working safety circuits. By far the component most
replaced
because of damage.

This discussion was about products that meet industry standards.
Many A+ Certified computer techs who don't even know how electricity
works. Electrical knowledge is not required for the test. So many
clone computers contain power supplies missing essential functions
because the power supply was selected only on dollars and watts. A
domestic market where inferior supplies can be dumped for higher
profits by selling at lower prices. Correctly noted are so many clone
computers with supplies that are missing essential functions. Those
defective computers were not part of the topic here.

Why do so many computer power supplies not even output rated power?
Well they don't even have to meet FCC requirements. It is the
computer assembler's (not power supply manufacturer's) job to make
that computer FCC compliant. One way to identify defective
computers. But an AM (medium wave) radio adjacent to the machine. If
machine causes radio interference, then start asking that computer
assembler why the computer is defective - and how many other required
functions are missing. These defective machines are not accidents -
maybe accidents waiting to happen.


Subject is:
belkin power conditioner for my Samsung LCD - is it worth it???
For me, probably not. For someone else, maybe.

Hope the link helped someone.

Leonard Caillouet wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 11, 9:52 am, wrote:
Not all appliances have such protection on the inside.
To achieve UL approval, those same circuits also provide significant
protection. For example required galvanic isolation means protection
of maybe 1000 volts or more. Filtering required for FCC regulations
adds further protection. And so it goes. Appliances have internal
protection. Some have better protection than others.

Are you saying that isolation is equivalent to surge protection? What does
UL aproval have to do with surge suppression?


Meanwhile, Apple II computers once included same protection circuit
inside a plug-in protector. That protection is no longer installed in
Apples or other machines. Protection was not effective because it was
too close to transistors and too far from earth ground. Meanwhile
other power supply circuits provided better protection.

Many devices do have protection in the form of MOVs or similar devices, many
do not. What experience do you have examining, repairing, or designing
products that are actually representative of the consumer electronics market
in the US?

Returning to the OP's post: even the cable guy said that $90 plug-in
protector was not necessary. Cable was earthed before entering the
building. What provides protection? Not the protector. Protector is
just another way to connect to protection - the single point earth
ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. No earth
ground means surges may even overwhelm protection already inside all
appliances including that 1000 or 2000 volt galvanic isolation.

Once again, no one is arguing that earthing is not important. It is simply
not the complete solution. Clamping may depend on an earth ground, or it may
not, depending on the context of the problem. Please provide some links to
support your statements. Also, your repeated accusations that Bud is
promoting some product have never been shown to have any merit. Do you have
some evidence of this? Lets have some specifics. Keep them in a context
that makes them valid. Then maybe your comments may have some meaning to
readers here.


Good try. I suspect that w_tom will not even reply to you, though.

Matthew

--
I'm a consultant. If you want an opinion I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Aug 12, 12:48 am, wrote:
A short time at sub-normal voltage almost always does not cause
damage. The brief rise in current that some applicances will have
during the brief low voltage will not accumulate much heat rise.
However, if you extend the brown-out in time, the extra current will
gather sufficient temperature rise in many appliance designs to
cause actual damage.

The classic appliance with the problem is a motor. Under load it will
increase the current as the rotor slips further back. Once it stalls,
then it enters a "locked rotor" state where current rise can be very
large. Surely you have seen some heavy motors that dim the lights
as they start up.

A motor is exactly why posts specifically said 'electronics'. Small
motors even may be harmed by 'dirtier' electricity from UPSes
(sometimes misidentified as power conditioners). Electric motors may
also be at risk if line voltage drops below 8%. Many household
appliances (ie air conditioners) include circuits to detect that low
voltage and cut off power - also avoid damage. But electronics must
always not be damaged by a brownout.

Electronic appliances must detect excessively low voltage and
shutdown long before damage can result. Standard computer power
supplies even have a monitor and signal wire to report such
conditions. Even single integrated circuit power supplies include
functions that shutdown without damage if too much heat. But again,
no damage during brownouts was even industry required more than 30
years ago on a chart that even included this phrase in the low voltage
region: "No Damage Region". How does one deny that blunt three words?

I would personally verify designs by dropping 120 VAC line voltage
to below 90 volts and leave them running. Why? Running at low
voltages without damage is required - not even optional. Tom
MacIntrye on 7 Sept 2001 in alt.certification.a-plus went even
farther:
A linear supply (many TV's) will start to lose its regulation from 100
volts down to maybe 90, and the set will shut off by 75 volts AC or
so.

Switching supplies (more and more TV's, and all monitors I've ever
seen), on the other hand, are different. Although it's hard on the
primary section due to the current and duty cycle of the switching,
they can and will regulate with very low voltages on the AC line in;
the best I've seen was a TV which didn't die until I turned the variac
down to 37 VAC! A brownout wouldn't have even affected the picture
on that set.

In each case, electronics shuts down without damage if sufficient
power cannot be provided. A requirement even before PCs existed and
back when TVs used vacuum tubes. Amazing how Matthew L Martin,
instead, posts insults to deny this reality.

'Power conditioning' is a function required in TV power supplies.
However, when selling to people with Matthew L Martin's grasp, then an
electrically naive retail store salesman has a ripe market to sell
grossly profitable 'magic' power conditioners. Matthew L Martin has
yet to demonstrate knowledge of power supply functions. He knows
without bothering to first learn. No wonder he was quickly sold on
'magic box' solutions by retail salesman.

As the cable guy told Piggy, that $90 'magic box' was not required
since cable has surge protection before entering the building.
Amazing how many people don't even know the cable is earthed let alone
even know what a surge protector does. But then we have the classic
example of technically naive who prove their superiority by posting
insults - rather than learn by doing and designing.

On Aug 12, 11:58 am, "Captain Midnight" wrote:
Subject is:
belkin power conditioner for my Samsung LCD - is it worth it???
For me, probably not. For someone else, maybe.

Anything that Belkin might accomplish is not even discussed in that
www.powerchx.com article. Anything that the Belkin might accomplish
for one appliance is performed (and done better) by one properly
earthed 'whole house' protector ... for everything in the house. The
Belkin is does not even claim to do very good when it costs maybe as
much as 100 times more money per protected appliance.

Most damning part - where does that Belkin even cite each type of
surge AND numbers for protection? It does not. It only makes
subjective claims of protection from surges that typically don't even
harm appliances. It makes no claim of protection from rare surges
that may overwhelm appliance protection. Why so much money for so
little results?

As demonstrated by numbers in the previous post, appliances already
have significant internal protection. Protection that may be
overwhelmed IF the typically destructive surge is not earthed before
entering the building.

The telco installs a protector to do just that ... for free. Cable
already makes that connection which is why cable guy accurately
recommends not using that so massively overpriced Belkin protector.

Meanwhile, what is the source of most destructive surges? Wires
highest on poles - AC electric. Therefore responsible manufactures
(Belkin is not on that list) such as Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic,
Leviton, Square D, Siemens, and GE make effective 'whole house'
protectors. How do we know? Nothing in www.powerchx.com says why.
Responsible manufacturers make a protector that is earthed 'less than
10 feet' to an earthing electrode. What is missing on ineffective
protectors from Belkin? That dedicated earthing wire and a complete
avoidance of earthing discussion. No wonder Belkin does not even
claim to protect from each type of surge. Right there in its numeric
specs: where do they even make a claim of protection? They do not.

What does the Belkin do? Take a $4 power strip. Add some ten cent
parts. Sell it for $90. What kind of protection is that? It
protects profit margins. It does not even claim to protect the TV.
But even the cable guy also noted that problem.

And what did www.powerchx.com forget to discuss? Earthing. Notice
what protectors from responsible manufacturers have - that dedicated
earthing wire. Notice what the telco - installed for free -
protectors has: the dedicated earthing. Notice how cable is already
protected: a dedicated earthing connection. No earth ground means no
effective protection.

On Aug 12, 11:50 am, "Leonard Caillouet" wrote:
Once again, no one is arguing that earthing is not important. It is simply
not the complete solution. Clamping may depend on an earth ground, or it may
not, depending on the context of the problem.

Bud is stating that earthing is not important. Even the cable guy
says that Belkin does not accomplish anything useful. The only
electrical problem that causes problems must be earthed and before it
can enter the building. Anything else that also solves the problem is
already inside electronics. Galvanic isolation is part of that
problem. Why do we know appliances have galvanic isolation for up to
thousands of volts? It is also required by the UL for human safety.

What does telcos do to protect their electronics? They also do not
use plug-in Belkins because, as Bud's own citations show, the
protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground may
earth destructive surges through the adjacent TV. How curious. Even
the cable company does not recommend a protector that does not even
claim to provide protection.

Don't take my word for it. Show me. Show me where there list each
type of surge and numbers that claim to protect from that surge. Bud
has been challenged to provide those numbers maybe 300 times. He
cannot because no such claim exists. No wonder the cable guy
recommended not using the grossly overpriced $90 protector.

Each protection layer is only defined by the one component that
every protection system must have. Single point earth ground.
Somehow that $90 Belkin will protect when it does not claim to AND
does not have an earthing connection? Well that is what Bud claims.

No. Grounding is not everything. But no earth ground means the
protection does not exist - except for protection already inside all
appliances. We earth before surges can enter the building so that
protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. What
does every high reliability facility require and what is missing in so
many residential buildings? That also so essential earthing
connection. Bud tells us "don't worry, be happy". His protectors
without earthing will work just fine. But they don't even claim to do
that?

Show me. Show me where it lists each surge AND numbers for
protection. Belkin makes no such claims. Its $90 price is about a
profit margin. No wonder the cable company recommends not using such
protectors. No wonder telcos don't use protectors with no earthing.
Why? Earthing is absolutely essential to surge protection.

These missing numbers for that Belkin are damning. Show me those
numbers that even claim protection. No wonder the cable guy does not
recommend a $90 Belkin that does not even claim to provide
protection. Show me. I keep asking and no one provides those
manufacture specs. Where does it even claim to protect from each type
of surge?

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 15:35:01 -0700 w_tom wrote:

| A motor is exactly why posts specifically said 'electronics'. Small
| motors even may be harmed by 'dirtier' electricity from UPSes
| (sometimes misidentified as power conditioners). Electric motors may
| also be at risk if line voltage drops below 8%. Many household
| appliances (ie air conditioners) include circuits to detect that low
| voltage and cut off power - also avoid damage. But electronics must
| always not be damaged by a brownout.

A very very short brownout won't damage them. A prolonged brownout
could damage some lower quality designs.


| Electronic appliances must detect excessively low voltage and
| shutdown long before damage can result. Standard computer power
| supplies even have a monitor and signal wire to report such
| conditions. Even single integrated circuit power supplies include
| functions that shutdown without damage if too much heat. But again,
| no damage during brownouts was even industry required more than 30
| years ago on a chart that even included this phrase in the low voltage
| region: "No Damage Region". How does one deny that blunt three words?

It would be a good think if they detected the low voltage and did
the shutdown. Some don't. I've seen some that don't so I know they
definitely exist.

Not being damaged in a brownout by means of either heavier duty capacity
or by shutting down is a feature of better quality. But there seems to
be no industry requirement of this. If there is, lots of manufacturers
are not aware of it.


| I would personally verify designs by dropping 120 VAC line voltage
| to below 90 volts and leave them running. Why? Running at low
| voltages without damage is required - not even optional. Tom
| MacIntrye on 7 Sept 2001 in alt.certification.a-plus went even
| farther:
| A linear supply (many TV's) will start to lose its regulation from 100
| volts down to maybe 90, and the set will shut off by 75 volts AC or
| so.
|
| Switching supplies (more and more TV's, and all monitors I've ever
| seen), on the other hand, are different. Although it's hard on the
| primary section due to the current and duty cycle of the switching,
| they can and will regulate with very low voltages on the AC line in;
| the best I've seen was a TV which didn't die until I turned the variac
| down to 37 VAC! A brownout wouldn't have even affected the picture
| on that set.

So did he leave it set to 40 volts and run it for a few hours to be sure
it would not be damaged?

Again, I claim there is no such requirement ... against your claim that
there is.


| In each case, electronics shuts down without damage if sufficient
| power cannot be provided. A requirement even before PCs existed and
| back when TVs used vacuum tubes. Amazing how Matthew L Martin,
| instead, posts insults to deny this reality.

There's nothing of value from Matthew L. Martin.

Good electronics do shut down on brownout, even if just because the
power supply unit is too hot. But I've seen a few that didn't.
Defective? Certainly. Defective design? Perhaps.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

"w_tom" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 11, 7:50 pm, "Matthew L. Martin" wrote:
I didn't see any citations in your post, you ignorant, self centered,
hypocritical blow hard.

Obvious is that Matthew L Martin has zero credibility. He posts
insults and profanity. Why? He knows but cannot bother to first
learn technology. No wonder we need more immigrants as engineers.
Matthew L Martin posts profanity and insults because he does not
really know. But he does know some will believe him only because he
insults.

Meanwhile in the brownout voltage regions, what does the industry
standard say? "No Damage Region" - a section from zero volts up to
108 volts. An informed consultant would know that brownout do not
cause damage as even demanded by industry standards. I guess Matthew
L Martin will post more profanity to protect his ego. His ego is
apparently more important than technical knowledge - and learning
industry standards.

What happens to electronics when AC power is removed? It goes
through a brownout - again without damage.


Under voltage acts in an untable region. Ever notice that receivers and
some other electronics have a time between turning them on and operating?
It's so volltages and currents are at the correct levels before the
circuitry is energized so it's not operating in an unstable situation.

wrote:



For 60 Hz power, yes, the bonding impedance is negligible. For a surge
with a rise of many kV/ns, that bond can look like an impassible labyrinth
for a brief instant in time.

It is a few inches of wire - negligible impedance.

Biggest surges are from strikes on wires. The rise time is lowered by
the impedance of the source wires.

But it doesn’t matter. Plug–in suppressors handle any mode surge.

I am specifically not interested in direct strikes. They require
lightning rods.



| The 'ground' at the panel is always elevated from 'absolute earth'
| potential with a surge that produces a significant earth current. It
| makes no sense to use earth as the reference point for a surge inside a
| house.
|
| But for plug-in suppressors it doesn't matter. They work for all modes.

So describe how they work for common mode.

I already did.




| And this is exactly why merely having a grounding bond will NOT completely
| remove the surge, nor will it completely transform a common mode to a
| differential mode.
|
| Common/differential mode discussion was about surges on power lines. The
| example above, surge on a cable entry, is the equivalent of having a
| high impedance N-G bond at the power service. The requirements in the
| NEC insure that the N-G bond will be low impedance - it is inches long max.

Low impedance at what frequency?

A few inches of bonding conductor sized by the earthing wire tables in
the NEC will give a voltage drop of hundreds of volts? Not mentioned in
anything I have read.

But it doesn’t matter.


|
| You make no comment on the description of plug-in suppressors clamping
| the voltage on all wires to the common ground at the suppressor, and
| that voltage on wires that go on to the protected equipment is safe for
| the connected equipment - both the IEEE cable example and a common mode
| surge to a TV. That is how plug-in suppressors protect. Doesn't matter
| if surge is on power or signal wires (signal wires must go through the
| suppressor). Doesn't matter if it is common or differential mode.
| This is the heart of the discussion on plug-in suppressors.

If it is a common mode surge, there won't be a voltage between L-N or
L-G or even N-G for the suppressor to clamp.

In your common mode example, just below, there is a voltage - L-N = 8kV,
L-G = 10kV, N-G = 2kV. All will be clamped to the common ground (and L-N
clamped) at the plug-in suppressor - the voltages passed on to the
connected load will be safe for the connected load.

More likely the surge
will be a combination of both, with the MOVs shorting out most of the
difference and leaving the common mode. For example if the L wire is
at 20 kV and the N wire is at 12 kV and the G wire is at 10 kV, you
have a mix.

Doesn’t matter what the mix is reaching a plug-in suppressor.

MOVs clamp common mode to the common ground at the plug-in suppressor.
There is no common mode left.

If there is over about 6kV between any wires at a receptacle or panel
there will be arc-over. (This is also mentioned in Captain Midnight’s
source.) L-N and L-G in your example would arc-over.


---
bud--

w_tom wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:58 am, "Captain Midnight" wrote:
Subject is:
belkin power conditioner for my Samsung LCD - is it worth it???
For me, probably not. For someone else, maybe.

Anything that the Belkin might accomplish
for one appliance is performed (and done better) by one properly
earthed 'whole house' protector ... for everything in the house.

Looking at w_’s favorite SquareD “whole house” suppressors:
http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ele...6671CT9701.pdf
or
http://tinyurl.com/yuekdo

For the ‘best’ suppressor - SDSB1175C
– The literature says “electronic equipment may need additional
protection by installing plug-in TVSS devices at the point of use.” Why
does SquareD also want plug-in suppressors??
- The connected equipment warranty $ is double when the suppressors “is
used in conjunction with ... a point of use surge protective device.”
Doesn’t SquareD have confidence in “whole house” suppressors???

For the next best suppressor - QO2175SB and HOM2175SB
- The connected equipment warranty $ does not include “electronic
devices such as: microwave ovens, audio and stereo components, video
equipment, televisions, and computers.”
Belkin plug–in suppressor connected equipment warranties include
electronics. Why doesn’t your favorite brand??



Most damning part - where does that Belkin even cite each type of
surge AND numbers for protection? It does not.

Neither of the SquareD “whole house” suppressor has numbers for “each
type of surge.” How could your favorite brand omit this critical
information?? SquareD does not even talk about different kinds of surges.
I am no longer confident of anything you say.

Therefore responsible manufactures
(Belkin is not on that list) such as Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic,
Leviton, Square D, Siemens, and GE make effective 'whole house'
protectors.

Belkin is not on that list because it is w_’s list.

But why is SquareD on that list. SquareD doesn’t cite numbers for “each
type of surge.” Or even mention each type of surge. I am confident that
w_ will immediately remove SquareD from his 'recommended' list. And
check the other manufacturers – maybe none of them include critical
numbers for “each type of surge.”

No wonder Belkin does not even
claim to protect from each type of surge. Right there in its numeric
specs: where do they even make a claim of protection? They do not.

But geez - neither does SqurareD!!!!


No earth ground means no
effective protection.

And of course the required statement of religious belief in earthing.

But earthing is not the issue. The only question is whether plug-in
suppressors work. Both the IEEE and NIST guides say they are effective.

And w_ still can’t find a link to another lunatic that agrees that
plug-in suppressors do NOT work. Only the cable guy agrees.


Still never answered:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an
effective surge protection device.
Plus:
- Why does SquareD say in addiiton to their “whole house” suppressors
“electronic equipment may need additional protection” from plug-in
suppressors.
- Why do SquareD “whole house” suppressors not have those critical
numbers for ”each type of surge”?

Bizarre claim - plug-in surge suppressors don't work
Never any sources that say plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.
Twists opposing sources to say the opposite of what they really say.
Attempts to discredit opponents.
w_ is still a purveyor of junk science.

--
bud--

tom_w

i have been reading about surge protection the last couple of weeks
trying to get a better understanding of it, trying to figure it out.
i'm a bit confused on a few of your points and would appreciate some
clarity.

when you mention earthing, is this exactly the same or is it different
than grounding?

you've said the surge protection does not work if it is not within 10'
of the service panel and earthing system outside, how can this be when
you say the surge protection build into smoke detectors, tv's,
computers ect. is all that is needed to protect it.

this kind of goes with the other questions, if plug in surge
protection does not work because it is not earthed, then how can we
depend on that ground wire at the plug to protect us (our safety) and
the equipment from faults and surges?

i don't want to sound sarcastic, but most cable tv installers in my
area have as much training as the person cutting the grass, and my
cable company sells surge protectors.

many thanks in advance