Bad CH5 from CP and other issues ..

Hi All,

I was helping a mate who lives in Waltham Abbey (up a hill) earlier
with a 'little job' re running a new bit of feeder to a new DTV in the
kitchen.

He was trying to use an internal aerial, getting quite a few of the
channels but not all nor very well (not surprisingly I told him etc).

We checked the new TV on the existing aerial in the lounge (also on
FV) and seemed to get all the chans ok so went ahead with splitting
the down lead (aerial and feeder replaced a couple of years ago) and
using a decent metal 3 way 'F' splitter.

(All the drilled holes were lining up that should have been an omen)
:-(

When we tested it we couldn't get CH5 and 11 etc. On re inspection of
the lounge system there was an inline booster there and it made the
difference between picture and none.

We then tested an old portable upstairs with a Sony DTV STB and a loop
aerial and got everything loud and clear?

We then went and looked again at the external aerial (on quite a pole)
and it looked like it was assembled incorrectly.

It had 9 'directors' (are they called?) which were (I believe) all
supposed to all be slightly forward facing in a 'V' pair each side.

The reflector was a pair of large angled mainly horizontal running
mesh / grids.

This one tho had been made with the front 6 directors angled backwards
(so the tips of the 6th and 7th touched)?

(Possibly silly question time) .. Would that be enough to kill such an
aerial down to a level worse than an internal loop located 10 feet
lower and explain the use of an amp etc?

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I was helping a mate who lives in Waltham Abbey (up a hill) earlier
with a 'little job' re running a new bit of feeder to a new DTV in the
kitchen.

He was trying to use an internal aerial, getting quite a few of the
channels but not all nor very well (not surprisingly I told him etc).

We checked the new TV on the existing aerial in the lounge (also on
FV) and seemed to get all the chans ok so went ahead with splitting
the down lead (aerial and feeder replaced a couple of years ago) and
using a decent metal 3 way 'F' splitter.

(All the drilled holes were lining up that should have been an omen)
:-(

When we tested it we couldn't get CH5 and 11 etc. On re inspection of
the lounge system there was an inline booster there and it made the
difference between picture and none.

We then tested an old portable upstairs with a Sony DTV STB and a loop
aerial and got everything loud and clear?

We then went and looked again at the external aerial (on quite a pole)
and it looked like it was assembled incorrectly.

It had 9 'directors' (are they called?) which were (I believe) all
supposed to all be slightly forward facing in a 'V' pair each side.

The reflector was a pair of large angled mainly horizontal running
mesh / grids.

This one tho had been made with the front 6 directors angled backwards
(so the tips of the 6th and 7th touched)?

(Possibly silly question time) .. Would that be enough to kill such an
aerial down to a level worse than an internal loop located 10 feet
lower and explain the use of an amp etc?

All the best ..

T i m

Are you quite sure that the device that you identified as
an "inline booster" is not in fact a power supply unit
for a mast-head amplifier, because if it is, the passive splitter
you have installed will block the dc power to the amp
unless it is specially designed to pass power from one of its ports

Sounds like the original rigger was a total cowboy though.
--

Graham.
%Profound_observarion%

In article , Graham.
scribeth thus

"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
Hi All,

I was helping a mate who lives in Waltham Abbey (up a hill) earlier
with a 'little job' re running a new bit of feeder to a new DTV in the
kitchen.

He was trying to use an internal aerial, getting quite a few of the
channels but not all nor very well (not surprisingly I told him etc).

We checked the new TV on the existing aerial in the lounge (also on
FV) and seemed to get all the chans ok so went ahead with splitting
the down lead (aerial and feeder replaced a couple of years ago) and
using a decent metal 3 way 'F' splitter.

(All the drilled holes were lining up that should have been an omen)
:-(

When we tested it we couldn't get CH5 and 11 etc. On re inspection of
the lounge system there was an inline booster there and it made the
difference between picture and none.

We then tested an old portable upstairs with a Sony DTV STB and a loop
aerial and got everything loud and clear?

We then went and looked again at the external aerial (on quite a pole)
and it looked like it was assembled incorrectly.

It had 9 'directors' (are they called?) which were (I believe) all
supposed to all be slightly forward facing in a 'V' pair each side.

The reflector was a pair of large angled mainly horizontal running
mesh / grids.

This one tho had been made with the front 6 directors angled backwards
(so the tips of the 6th and 7th touched)?

(Possibly silly question time) .. Would that be enough to kill such an
aerial down to a level worse than an internal loop located 10 feet
lower and explain the use of an amp etc?

All the best ..

T i m

Are you quite sure that the device that you identified as
an "inline booster" is not in fact a power supply unit
for a mast-head amplifier, because if it is, the passive splitter
you have installed will block the dc power to the amp
unless it is specially designed to pass power from one of its ports

Sounds like the original rigger was a total cowboy though.

Got a picture of the aerial and other unit you can post anywhere?..
--
Tony Sayer

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:32:17 +0100, "Graham." wrote:



Are you quite sure that the device that you identified as
an "inline booster" is not in fact a power supply unit
for a mast-head amplifier,

I did consider that Graham but I couldn't see such anywhere in the
feeder between aerial and TV? The 'booster' thing was white,
semicircular and with an in and out (from memory but could have said
TV / Ant etc) on the flat side. I noticed both the connectors on the
unit were female UHF type as I had to use a barrel connector to bypass
the unit.

because if it is, the passive splitter
you have installed will block the dc power to the amp
unless it is specially designed to pass power from one of its ports

It was a Paragon brand splitter and did say 'All ports DC pass' on the
label so I though it should be ok?

Sounds like the original rigger was a total cowboy though.

Well, I think it was the cowboy's son in this case ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:35:29 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:



Are you quite sure that the device that you identified as
an "inline booster" is not in fact a power supply unit
for a mast-head amplifier, because if it is, the passive splitter
you have installed will block the dc power to the amp
unless it is specially designed to pass power from one of its ports

No I'm not 100% sure but feel it was a domestic thingy rather than
something more technical. White plastic, semi circular and 2 x UHF
female connectors, one each end of the flat side?

Sounds like the original rigger was a total cowboy though.

So it now seems ;-(

Got a picture of the aerial and other unit you can post anywhere?..

I have some picture of the aerial (I asked him to send me some as I
was leaving), can get one of the 'box' and can email them to anyone
who would like to post them on a site_of_shame etc?

All the best ..

T i m

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:35:29 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:


Are you quite sure that the device that you identified as
an "inline booster" is not in fact a power supply unit
for a mast-head amplifier,

My mate has just emailed me with the following:

Labgear MSE 111 if that means anything?

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I was helping a mate who lives in Waltham Abbey (up a hill) earlier
with a 'little job' re running a new bit of feeder to a new DTV in the
kitchen.

He was trying to use an internal aerial, getting quite a few of the
channels but not all nor very well (not surprisingly I told him etc).

We checked the new TV on the existing aerial in the lounge (also on
FV) and seemed to get all the chans ok so went ahead with splitting
the down lead (aerial and feeder replaced a couple of years ago) and
using a decent metal 3 way 'F' splitter.

(All the drilled holes were lining up that should have been an omen)
:-(

When we tested it we couldn't get CH5 and 11 etc. On re inspection of
the lounge system there was an inline booster there and it made the
difference between picture and none.

We then tested an old portable upstairs with a Sony DTV STB and a loop
aerial and got everything loud and clear?

We then went and looked again at the external aerial (on quite a pole)
and it looked like it was assembled incorrectly.

It had 9 'directors' (are they called?) which were (I believe) all
supposed to all be slightly forward facing in a 'V' pair each side.

The reflector was a pair of large angled mainly horizontal running
mesh / grids.

This one tho had been made with the front 6 directors angled backwards
(so the tips of the 6th and 7th touched)?

(Possibly silly question time) .. Would that be enough to kill such an
aerial down to a level worse than an internal loop located 10 feet
lower and explain the use of an amp etc?

All the best ..

T i m


Why were you helping him if you don't know anything about coax, splitters,
aerials and how to get a good enough signal to each TV !

Install a new aerial and use either a masthead preamp with splitters - or
use a good aerial with distribution amp in the loft, then run a coax to each
room.

As for the aerial, bigger the better and correctly aligned. Don't bother
with the likes of Televes DAT75, they are nothing but "rooftop bling" as it
is known. The acceptance angle is so narrow that if it flaps about on a
pole the picture will go on and off. That will become worse the further
away from the transmitter you are. Use good quality coax such as CT100,
observe minimum radius bends, use F type connectors and self amalgamating
tape to waterproof the connections outside.

From what you describe, your friend lives in an area of poor reception - so
getting a good aerial, coax and distribution system is important. Passive
splitters like the ones you have been using can cut the signal by 3dB which
is half. So if you need a booster to see anything then there isn't much
signal in the first place, cutting a crap signal by half will make it worse.

I would advise him to buy a large aerial, high gain mast head preamp and
then use a passive splitter in the house, possibly running the aerial in to
a booster for the second TV. It all depends on signal levels.

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 01:46:19 +0100, "Ron" wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
Hi All,

I was helping a mate who lives in Waltham Abbey (up a hill) earlier
with a 'little job' re running a new bit of feeder to a new DTV in the
kitchen.

He was trying to use an internal aerial, getting quite a few of the
channels but not all nor very well (not surprisingly I told him etc).

We checked the new TV on the existing aerial in the lounge (also on
FV) and seemed to get all the chans ok so went ahead with splitting
the down lead (aerial and feeder replaced a couple of years ago) and
using a decent metal 3 way 'F' splitter.

(All the drilled holes were lining up that should have been an omen)
:-(

When we tested it we couldn't get CH5 and 11 etc. On re inspection of
the lounge system there was an inline booster there and it made the
difference between picture and none.

We then tested an old portable upstairs with a Sony DTV STB and a loop
aerial and got everything loud and clear?

We then went and looked again at the external aerial (on quite a pole)
and it looked like it was assembled incorrectly.

It had 9 'directors' (are they called?) which were (I believe) all
supposed to all be slightly forward facing in a 'V' pair each side.

The reflector was a pair of large angled mainly horizontal running
mesh / grids.

This one tho had been made with the front 6 directors angled backwards
(so the tips of the 6th and 7th touched)?

(Possibly silly question time) .. Would that be enough to kill such an
aerial down to a level worse than an internal loop located 10 feet
lower and explain the use of an amp etc?

All the best ..

T i m


Why were you helping him if you don't know anything about coax, splitters,
aerials and how to get a good enough signal to each TV !

Thanks for your thoughts Ron. I have left my text in so you can maybe
re-read what I wrote and see if I still know nothing at all about what
I'm doing.

Install a new aerial and use either a masthead preamp with splitters - or
use a good aerial with distribution amp in the loft, then run a coax to each
room.

Why, when we can get all channels perfectly on an indoor aerial in the
bedroom?

As for the aerial, bigger the better and correctly aligned.

I'm not sure that's completely correct but will let others explain
why.

Don't bother
with the likes of Televes DAT75, they are nothing but "rooftop bling" as it
is known. The acceptance angle is so narrow that if it flaps about on a
pole the picture will go on and off.

Understood and something I explained to him yesterday (well not the
'flapping about as such).

That will become worse the further
away from the transmitter you are. Use good quality coax such as CT100,

I did (and copper / copper).

observe minimum radius bends,

I did.

use F type connectors

I did.

and self amalgamating
tape to waterproof the connections outside.

I haven't as yet because 1) I didn't have any with me and 2) because
it is in a protected position and 3) because we may not have
'finished'.

From what you describe, your friend lives in an area of poor reception - so
getting a good aerial, coax and distribution system is important.

But get's all channels on an indoor aerial?

Passive
splitters like the ones you have been using can cut the signal by 3dB which
is half.

And if the signal is twice as good as it needs to be that shouldn't be
a problem eh? I like at the same distance from CP as him but a few
feet lower. I get diabolical ghosting on analogue from Canary Wharf
but a 30 year old aerial in the loft is currently feeding 8+ sets
(TV's / STB's) with only some minor breakup with locally generated
interference (old but good non-foil screened, air spaced co-ax)

So if you need a booster to see anything then there isn't much
signal in the first place, cutting a crap signal by half will make it worse.

Understood and just as I explained it to him. What that doesn't
explain though is why the set end booster was able to turn 'no signal'
into a 'good signal' (on al channels) on his main set?

I would advise him to buy a large aerial, high gain mast head preamp and
then use a passive splitter in the house, possibly running the aerial in to
a booster for the second TV. It all depends on signal levels.

I will probably advise him to get the aerial sorted / replaced /
re-aimed and remove the set end booster. The rest of the installation
is (I believe) fine.

All the best ..

T i m

p.s. Mates try and help each other, even if they aren't experts. ;-)

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:35:29 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:


Are you quite sure that the device that you identified as
an "inline booster" is not in fact a power supply unit
for a mast-head amplifier,

My mate has just emailed me with the following:

Labgear MSE 111 if that means anything?


That is indeed a self-contained amplifier. Given the strength
of signal that you have, demonstrated by the set-top aerial
indoors, there is something seriously wrong with the existing
installation to warrant an amplifier.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:44:14 +0100, "Graham." wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:35:29 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:


Are you quite sure that the device that you identified as
an "inline booster" is not in fact a power supply unit
for a mast-head amplifier,

My mate has just emailed me with the following:

Labgear MSE 111 if that means anything?


That is indeed a self-contained amplifier.

Thought that's *all* it was.

Given the strength
of signal that you have, demonstrated by the set-top aerial
indoors, there is something seriously wrong with the existing
installation to warrant an amplifier.

Well exactly.

On his new 15" Goodmans (I think) DTV in the kitchen on my new split
feed (from the roof / pole aerial) there only seems to be a 'quality'
indicator (no sig strength) and on most channels that seems to hover
around the 3/4 position (green). On CHs5 and 11 (that were pointed out
to me as bad, even on the main set but that seems to be a function of
'the conditions') it was under 1/2 without an amp (I took a variable
gain one along with a 4 way distrib amp just in case) and just over
1/2 with the amp (picture now and again on the new set).

I'm pretty sure it's mainly down to the directors being fitted
back_to_front on the first 6 of 9 on this newish aerial .. I was just
amazed it could kill and aerial so much?

All the best ..

T i m