The End of Free OTA

In article .net Bob Miller writes:

I am not preaching doom. The future will be better. I am only pointing
out that the present is not as good as it could be or should be
pertaining to OTA DTV on channels 2-51 in the US.

If we change the codec and modulation then things will be a lot better
right away.

Nonsense. If we changed the codec and modulation tomorrow, all digital
television sets and settop receivers would quit working.

It does not sound like a step forward to me.


If we don't then there will be some period of time before
the free OTA DTV we have now is replaced with new offerings by those who
will buy the spectrum at future auctions and use it with up to date
codecs and modulation and maybe even free OTA.

First you spent years complaining about 8VSB modulation. Now,
you have added complaining about MPEG2.

Both are working quite well.


Alan

common_ wrote in message
...
Problem is, hardly anybody has an outside antenna anymore - just
wander around your neighborhood, and tell me what percent of the homes
have roof top antennas?


Doug and Carrie's house has an outside OTA antenna ;-).

On Jul 25, 3:01 am, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
wrote:
In article ,
"Matthew L. Martin" wrote:

but why would people with sat or cable service be "dependent" on
OTA..?

Simple. Can't you figure it out for yourself?

No?

How about those people who don't pay to hook every TV in their house to
a pay service?

One doesn't have to pay to hook every TV to a pay service, but then
you're deliberately ignoring that--or else you're tres stupid.

Here where I live (southern arizona) every local station now has
digital
broadcast. Most people watch them on cable, some watch on
Dishnetwork,
they carry the locals for $5.99 a month.

Since I got my HDTV about a month ago, I watch all my locals OTA.
It is so much better. I have compared the cable digital, and
Dishnetwork local digital. Friends have both in HD by the way.

The OTA is cleaner, sharper, more vivid. No cable or sat processing,
just
straight into my antennae to my tuner, in glorious VIVID HD.

my 2 ¢
YB

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:05:40 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 06:01:45 -0400, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

In article ,
"Matthew L. Martin" wrote:

but why would people with sat or cable service be "dependent" on
OTA..?

Simple. Can't you figure it out for yourself?

No?

How about those people who don't pay to hook every TV in their house to
a pay service?

One doesn't have to pay to hook every TV to a pay service, but then
you're deliberately ignoring that--or else you're tres stupid.

You're going to find many different opinions on this, but I think anyone
that pays for sat or cable and has access to free OTA ATSC is stupid.:-)

My reasoning ot use free OTA HDTV is real simple.

1. It's free.

2. The picture quality is better than you can get with sat or cable.

3. There's more on than I can watch in a day (being able to record as many
shows as I want).

4. Don't need special crap to record it. No encryption, etc.,etc.

5. There's nothing on cable or sat that won't eventually end up on regular
TV with the exception of sports events, with major events usually
broadcast anyway, and possibly cooking with the fat ass chef or some other
crap that 99% of people don't care about anyway.

6. The service is better.

7. You're a cheap *******.

Obviously people who subscribe to cable or satellite want more than
the meager fare offered on network tv.
Thumper

Alan wrote:
In article .net Bob Miller writes:

I am not preaching doom. The future will be better. I am only pointing
out that the present is not as good as it could be or should be
pertaining to OTA DTV on channels 2-51 in the US.

If we change the codec and modulation then things will be a lot better
right away.

Nonsense. If we changed the codec and modulation tomorrow, all digital
television sets and settop receivers would quit working.

It does not sound like a step forward to me.


If we don't then there will be some period of time before
the free OTA DTV we have now is replaced with new offerings by those who
will buy the spectrum at future auctions and use it with up to date
codecs and modulation and maybe even free OTA.

First you spent years complaining about 8VSB modulation. Now,
you have added complaining about MPEG2.

Both are working quite well.


Alan
MPEG2 works fine. The problem is that newer compression codecs can
handle twice the content and as they mature will be able to handle four
times the content of MPEG2.

This was known at the time MPEG2 was chosen. MPEG2 was chosen to cement
in the IP royalty rights of players with lobbyist and lots of money.

This is not true of OTA's competition, cable and satellite, where they
can and are changing to better codecs to deliver more content in the
same infrastructure.

The decision to use MPEG2 and allow no upgrade path to already known and
far better codecs is just another example of the consumer getting
screwed. This protects cable and satellite from competition and allows
the compromised, conflicted broadcasters to get paid for their free OTA
content on cable and satellite.

The conflict of interest that broadcasters have with must carry now that
they have decided to cash in on cable and satellite suggest that they
should either have their spectrum or must carry rights taken away.

And they will, one or the other. If it is must carry then you will hear
howls of pain about modulation and codec. If it is spectrum then new
owners will use better codecs and modulation.

Since MPEG2 barely allows the broadcast of 1080i and many including
myself will suggest cannot carry 1080i and cannot carry 1080-60P for
sure, it would be nice if we had and upgrade path to better codecs.

To suggest that it makes sense to restrict the upgrade path to better
codecs to pay off political corrupt Congresscritters and the payees
borders on insane.

Sort of like the Patty Hearst kidnap syndrome where captives identify
with their oppressors. We in the US now find all kinds of excuses to
explain why we let these guys pick our pockets because we are their
captives.

The DTV spectrum, channels 2-51, are devalued both to broadcasters and
the public at the present by 50% and later by 75% by the continued use
of MPEG2.

Doesn't matter to broadcasters because they have bought into the cable
and satellite cash flow scheme and only lose money every time someone
uses OTA.

Does matter to the public because they are being deprived of a
competitor to cable and satellite, both free OTA and pay OTA. The public
is deprived of better delivered HD content and more content.

If MPEG4 or better codecs were used along with a decent modulation we
would see a rebirth of competition for cable and satellite like we see
in many other countries.

I have advocated for using a better codec than MPEG2 since 1999. It is
not something new. It has always been both modulation and codec.

Bob Miller

Alan wrote:
In article .net Bob Miller writes:

I am not preaching doom. The future will be better. I am only pointing
out that the present is not as good as it could be or should be
pertaining to OTA DTV on channels 2-51 in the US.

If we change the codec and modulation then things will be a lot better
right away.

Nonsense. If we changed the codec and modulation tomorrow, all digital
television sets and settop receivers would quit working.

Nothing is happening with OTA now. Virtually dead. A change in
modulation and codec would be better RIGHT AWAY.

Bob Miller

It does not sound like a step forward to me.


If we don't then there will be some period of time before
the free OTA DTV we have now is replaced with new offerings by those who
will buy the spectrum at future auctions and use it with up to date
codecs and modulation and maybe even free OTA.

First you spent years complaining about 8VSB modulation. Now,
you have added complaining about MPEG2.

Both are working quite well.


Alan

Nothing is happening with OTA now. Virtually dead. A change in
modulation and codec would be better RIGHT AWAY.

Bob Miller

This is further proof that you are insane.

Chip

--
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Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
link.net...
Alan wrote:
In article .net Bob
Miller writes:

I am not preaching doom. The future will be better. I am only pointing
out that the present is not as good as it could be or should be
pertaining to OTA DTV on channels 2-51 in the US.

If we change the codec and modulation then things will be a lot better
right away.

Nonsense. If we changed the codec and modulation tomorrow, all digital
television sets and settop receivers would quit working.

It does not sound like a step forward to me.


If we don't then there will be some period of time before the free OTA
DTV we have now is replaced with new offerings by those who will buy the
spectrum at future auctions and use it with up to date codecs and
modulation and maybe even free OTA.

First you spent years complaining about 8VSB modulation. Now,
you have added complaining about MPEG2.

Both are working quite well.


Alan
MPEG2 works fine. The problem is that newer compression codecs can handle
twice the content and as they mature will be able to handle four times the
content of MPEG2.

This was known at the time MPEG2 was chosen. MPEG2 was chosen to cement in
the IP royalty rights of players with lobbyist and lots of money.

This is not true of OTA's competition, cable and satellite, where they can
and are changing to better codecs to deliver more content in the same
infrastructure.

The decision to use MPEG2 and allow no upgrade path to already known and
far better codecs is just another example of the consumer getting screwed.
This protects cable and satellite from competition and allows the
compromised, conflicted broadcasters to get paid for their free OTA
content on cable and satellite.

The conflict of interest that broadcasters have with must carry now that
they have decided to cash in on cable and satellite suggest that they
should either have their spectrum or must carry rights taken away.

And they will, one or the other. If it is must carry then you will hear
howls of pain about modulation and codec. If it is spectrum then new
owners will use better codecs and modulation.

Since MPEG2 barely allows the broadcast of 1080i and many including myself
will suggest cannot carry 1080i and cannot carry 1080-60P for sure, it
would be nice if we had and upgrade path to better codecs.

To suggest that it makes sense to restrict the upgrade path to better
codecs to pay off political corrupt Congresscritters and the payees
borders on insane.

Sort of like the Patty Hearst kidnap syndrome where captives identify with
their oppressors. We in the US now find all kinds of excuses to explain
why we let these guys pick our pockets because we are their captives.

The DTV spectrum, channels 2-51, are devalued both to broadcasters and the
public at the present by 50% and later by 75% by the continued use of
MPEG2.

Doesn't matter to broadcasters because they have bought into the cable and
satellite cash flow scheme and only lose money every time someone uses
OTA.

Does matter to the public because they are being deprived of a competitor
to cable and satellite, both free OTA and pay OTA. The public is deprived
of better delivered HD content and more content.

If MPEG4 or better codecs were used along with a decent modulation we
would see a rebirth of competition for cable and satellite like we see in
many other countries.

I have advocated for using a better codec than MPEG2 since 1999. It is not
something new. It has always been both modulation and codec.

Bob Miller

Here's a nice, unchallenging, easy-to-read website that explains some of our
DTV system's history.
Thought you might like to learn (a little).
Did you know you can use your mouse to "turn on" the little blue blocks near
the top of the screen?* You can learn _even more_ about our DTV standard
that way! Some fun!

http://www.atsc.org/history.html


*Push down (v) on the little square on the upper left area of your mouse.

On Jul 26, 9:45 am, Bob Miller wrote:
....
If we change the codec and modulation then things will be a lot better
right away.

Nonsense. If we changed the codec and modulation tomorrow, all digital
television sets and settop receivers would quit working.

Nothing is happening with OTA now. Virtually dead. A change in
modulation and codec would be better RIGHT AWAY.

Bob Miller
....

Shirley } you jest. I mean: you can't be serious, Bob? Have you
actually thought about the market impact of your suggestion? We'd all
be back at the beginning with no receivers and no transmitters,
potentially for years. All the ATSC tuners currently in use would
soon become worthless. Personally, I would have to replace the 4
tuners I use on a regular basis. Since I'm not a fan of more STBs,
I'm not going to like getting them. The only other option is to
replace two TVs, a DVR, and a DVD Recorder. I'm not about to spend
the money to repurchase those expensive components after such a short
interval of use. Heck, I've been waiting for a DVD recorder with an
integrated ATSC tuner for a couple of years, and only now are they
available. But most importantly, you want to throw out a system *THAT
WORKS FOR MOST OF US*!

If you can't see how that would be the death sentence for OTA TV, you
aren't terribly imaginative. Or worse. Of course some might claim
your entire hope *is* to destroy OTA TV, but I'll leave that to the
more conspiracy minded among us.

Dan (Woj...)

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:06:39 -0400, Thumper wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:05:40 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:
You're going to find many different opinions on this, but I think anyone
that pays for sat or cable and has access to free OTA ATSC is stupid.:-)

My reasoning ot use free OTA HDTV is real simple.

1. It's free.

2. The picture quality is better than you can get with sat or cable.

3. There's more on than I can watch in a day (being able to record as many
shows as I want).

4. Don't need special crap to record it. No encryption, etc.,etc.

5. There's nothing on cable or sat that won't eventually end up on regular
TV with the exception of sports events, with major events usually
broadcast anyway, and possibly cooking with the fat ass chef or some other
crap that 99% of people don't care about anyway.

6. The service is better.

7. You're a cheap *******.

Because I don't pay for something I don't need or want? Nice reasoning.

Obviously people who subscribe to cable or satellite want more than
the meager fare offered on network tv.

I'asked several cable/sat subscribers about why they have the service. Not
one has said because of the programimg. ALL have said (erroneously)
because that's the only way they can TV. Not a single one of the people I
asked even had an antenna, and none of them knew they could get HDTV free
OTA. Most of them watched the local channels over the service more than
they watched the so called premium channels. My brother has bitched about
the quality of his TV service for years. He's tried cable, DIrecTV, and
last I checked he had Dish network. He was going to switch to FIOS when
that ran out. He had HD with dishnet to start but switched back to regular
because the picture quality was so bad and he couldn't record with his old
dvr (really, just didn;'t know how to).

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