The End of Free OTA

In article .net Bob Miller writes:
Bruce Tomlin wrote:
Guess what Bob... THOSE RABBIT EARS WILL STILL WORK.

If they do there will not be a problem. I don't think they will work.

But, you don't know.

The experience of many here is that 8VSB works far better than you think it does,
so your guess is likely to be wrong.


This is not your engineer friend who is an early adopter who is willing
to do just about anything to get his OTA DTV to work. Mpt your rich
friend who can buy every new generation of OTA receiver. These will be
people who just want to watch TV.

They will hook up their converter box to their rabbit ears and if they
get reception they may not get all they channels they got before. They
may not get the ONE channel they want. If they get reception they may
get drop outs instead of snow.


They *may* not get all the channels that they got before. Of course,
they may get MORE CHANNELS than they got before. Often folks using rabbit
ears have some channels they get but are so ghost ridden they don't watch
them. Those are likely to come in perfectly.


Living partly shielded by hills, many of my analog signals are poor to
unwatchable. The digital versions are perfect.


Your speculations is nothing more -- just speculation without evidence.

Alan

Bob Miller wrote:

wrote:
In alt.tv.tech.hdtv Bob Miller wrote:

| I have predicted that not to long after the digital transition is over
| in 2009 that Congresscritters or a Congresscritter might notice that
| virtually no one is using digital channels 2-51.

For any given channel in that range, you certainly will be able to find
millions of people not using it.

Not just millions, more like 108 million households will NOT be using it.

| And that this would lead to a proposal that these channel should be
| taken from their current licensees and sold at auction. The idea of an
| auction will be fresh in Congresscritters minds since they will have
| just had one for channels 52, 53, 56, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 66 and 67.
| The billions they took in without having to vote for a tax will be very
| fresh in their collective minds. (Google just promised at least $4.6
| billion today).

Congress _will_ be getting floods of phone calls from people around
Feb 18, 2009, complaining of TV sets not working. In case you have
not attended any community meetings of Congress people (I have), the
majority, and in some cases the vast majority, are elderly in the
near and post retirement age. These are the same ones that make up
the majority of letters written to Congress.

After having gotten that response around Feb 18, 2009, they will be
very much afraid of trying to take TV away in the post-transition era.
That's what it would mean.

As far as most of those folks are concerned Congress WILL have taken
away their TV on February 18th, 2008. Or are you suggesting that
Congress is going to hire a fleet, I should say FLEETS, of installation
vans and crews to try to install millions of rooftop antennas for those
subsidized DTV converter boxes?

No those millions of elderly people are going to be just out of luck
with TV sets with or without converters that just don't work.

They are not going to have TV anymore. Congress has NO plan. If you
think they do go to the Communicators and listen to Congressman Fred
Upton who they interviewed today. He has no clue. He never had a clue.

When the transition comes you will find him hiding under a rock
someplace pointing a finger at someone else.


| With the arrival of figures showing that after the transition as few as
| or less than ONE% of US households now depend on OTA....

And where did you get this figure?

Since we are not at the transition yet the real figure is unknowable.
That is my high estimate. I am talking about households that depend on
OTA and have no other source of TV. There will be many households that
have an antenna as a backup. Others who watch it sometimes or have it on
a TV in the kids room which they mostly use for games. ETC.

But OTA will not be necessary for more than ONE% of the households in
the US IMO.

| With the fresh smell of money, $15 to $30 billion from the auctions of
| 60 MHz of BROADCAST TV spectrum in 2008....
|
| And with the prospect of selling off the rest, 294 MHz of spectrum now
| occupied by Cable money myopic broadcasters, now planted in their minds,
| new age, those ushered in as the Republican party implodes,
| Congresscritters will have a field day with the prospect.

Not at all likely to happen. And they know it will lead to a backlash
that ends up reversing some of those auctions.

That should be an interesting legal prospect, taking back what was
legally purchased at auction and letting the current broadcasters play
with it for free for more years? Interesting lawsuits would ensue.

| And earlier than I expected it the press is starting to talk of just
| this prospect.
|
| http://www.drewclark.com/2007/07/bac...aper-bag.shtml
|
| And a related article about some of the corruption in broadcasting that
| picks our pockets.
| http://www.newamerica.net/publicatio...ctrum_lobbying
|
| Broadcasters are going to loose their spectrum, all of it.

And I bet you are so looking forward to this.

Why would I be looking forward to it? I have been warning that it would
happen for 9 years hoping to keep it from happening. I think that free
OTA TV is very important.


| Didn't have to happen if they were a bit more hyperopia. If they had
| been awake at the wheel when things like their DTV modulation
| compression codec were being discussed.

Everything that _is_ wrong with over the air TV broadcasting (and there is
a lot, IMHO) has nothing to do with the modulation. It would be the same
whether COFDM or even QAM.

Most modulations that use COFDM are QAM.

And it has everything to do with the modulation. If the US had a decent
COFDM based QAM modulation there would be over 120 million OTA receivers
in use today in the US.

And I mean in use not stuck in the back of integrated HDTV sets sold to
unsuspecting customers who have no idea they bought such a thing as an
OTA receiver.

OTA would be wildly popular and would have promoted HD in the US and
around the world far more than the lack of OTA in the US has done.

Broadcasters would be DOING mobile TV not trying to fix 8-VSB so that
maybe they can do mobile someday. They would be doing mobile HD and ED
and SD. The US would be the leaders in OTA DTV not the basket case we are.

Retailers would be featuring OTA solutions both fixed and mobile. Just
like in other countries where OTA DTV is the fastest growing electronic
wonder ever. Cable and satellite would be under pressure from OTA
offerings just like they are in the UK, Germany and other countries.

Bob Miller
Despite the fact that Bob 'zeal" sometimes gets in the way of his
arguments - he is, and has been , mostly correct.

Its unfortunate, as OTA HD , with a good outside antenna is
wonderfully.

Problem is, hardly anybody has an outside antenna anymore - just
wander around your neighborhood, and tell me what percent of the homes
have roof top antennas?

Like Bob says - the american sheeple have not got a clue about the
ATSC tuner built into their new chinese made flat panel TV. They hook
it up to the cable TV box and wonder at the joys of a great big blurry
picture.

In alt.tv.tech.hdtv Bob Miller wrote:

| As far as most of those folks are concerned Congress WILL have taken
| away their TV on February 18th, 2008. Or are you suggesting that
| Congress is going to hire a fleet, I should say FLEETS, of installation
| vans and crews to try to install millions of rooftop antennas for those
| subsidized DTV converter boxes?

I _wish_ it would be in 2008.

They may have to change to a UHF antenna.


| They are not going to have TV anymore. Congress has NO plan. If you
| think they do go to the Communicators and listen to Congressman Fred
| Upton who they interviewed today. He has no clue. He never had a clue.

Congressmen not having a clue? What are you trying to do, Bob?
Confuse us with facts?


| Since we are not at the transition yet the real figure is unknowable.
| That is my high estimate. I am talking about households that depend on
| OTA and have no other source of TV. There will be many households that
| have an antenna as a backup. Others who watch it sometimes or have it on
| a TV in the kids room which they mostly use for games. ETC.
|
| But OTA will not be necessary for more than ONE% of the households in
| the US IMO.

OTA will be making a comeback. A clean solid picture has always been so
elusive with analog (especially analog on cable). Digital is making a
difference. Sure some locations _will_ need a directional UHF antenna.
But this gets you HD or solid pictures or alternate programs cheaper
and sooner than cable is managing to do.


| | And with the prospect of selling off the rest, 294 MHz of spectrum now
| | occupied by Cable money myopic broadcasters, now planted in their minds,
| | new age, those ushered in as the Republican party implodes,
| | Congresscritters will have a field day with the prospect.
|
| Not at all likely to happen. And they know it will lead to a backlash
| that ends up reversing some of those auctions.
|
| That should be an interesting legal prospect, taking back what was
| legally purchased at auction and letting the current broadcasters play
| with it for free for more years? Interesting lawsuits would ensue.

Land can be taken by eminent domain, even when the purpose is to enhance
some non-government use. I suggest two points. One that radio spectrum
can be taken just as much as land, although only by the Feds. And that
the original action of selling, rather than leasing, the spectrum is not
even legal (because it is a rare resource and not literally owned by
those who were selling it). If this is overturned, they most certainly
would have to give the money back, with interest.

Selling spectrum was definitely wrong. We'll learn that in the future
when the government discovers it has no continuing revenue stream from it.


| And I bet you are so looking forward to this.
|
| Why would I be looking forward to it? I have been warning that it would
| happen for 9 years hoping to keep it from happening. I think that free
| OTA TV is very important.

No. You want to own a piece of it for yourself for your mobile services.
You want to see OTA die so you can grab some.

I predict OTA will still be around for at least 30 years. But who is
providing it may well change.


| | Didn't have to happen if they were a bit more hyperopia. If they had
| | been awake at the wheel when things like their DTV modulation
| | compression codec were being discussed.
|
| Everything that _is_ wrong with over the air TV broadcasting (and there is
| a lot, IMHO) has nothing to do with the modulation. It would be the same
| whether COFDM or even QAM.
|
| Most modulations that use COFDM are QAM.

FDM is just lots of little modulations in parallel. So what if each is
QAM instead of something like VSB or QPSK.


| And it has everything to do with the modulation. If the US had a decent
| COFDM based QAM modulation there would be over 120 million OTA receivers
| in use today in the US.

The reason this might actually be true is not due to any technical
benefit from the modulation here in the US, but rather, from the fact
that manufacturers geared up for DVB chipsets and products first
because the DVB market is larger.


| And I mean in use not stuck in the back of integrated HDTV sets sold to
| unsuspecting customers who have no idea they bought such a thing as an
| OTA receiver.
|
| OTA would be wildly popular and would have promoted HD in the US and
| around the world far more than the lack of OTA in the US has done.
|
| Broadcasters would be DOING mobile TV not trying to fix 8-VSB so that
| maybe they can do mobile someday. They would be doing mobile HD and ED
| and SD. The US would be the leaders in OTA DTV not the basket case we are.

They _will_ be doing mobile on 700 MHz. It just won't be _you_ getting a
piece of the action.


| Retailers would be featuring OTA solutions both fixed and mobile. Just
| like in other countries where OTA DTV is the fastest growing electronic
| wonder ever. Cable and satellite would be under pressure from OTA
| offerings just like they are in the UK, Germany and other countries.

When I managed to get the manager at a Circuit City store to hook up ONE
TV to an outside antenna, and it happened to bring in some channels from
other cities they had never gotten before, a couple of the sales guys
who were standing by to see this miraculous event said stuff like "I didn't
know it could do that" and "Gee, Bob Miller was wrong, afterall". :-)

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

common_ wrote
Despite the fact that Bob 'zeal" sometimes gets in the way of his
arguments

By 'zeal', do you mean money-losing-business-concept = vengeance-
retaliation-reciprocation?

tell me what percent of the homes have roof top antennas?

Are you and/or bob trying to imply that there's some heretofore unknown
foreign DTV system where people only require indoor antennas? I'd really
like to learn some more about that particular system.

OTA is alive and well for millions of Americans.

==========================

"Bob Miller" spewed crap!

common_ wrote:

Problem is, hardly anybody has an outside antenna anymore - just
wander around your neighborhood, and tell me what percent of the homes
have roof top antennas?

Except in the hinterlands and more challenging areas for reception,
you can't really judge OTA ATSC reception by number of roof top
antennas. With analog, you generally wanted the best possible signal,
which meant at even medium range distances, you would go with a rooftop
antenna. But with digital, so long as the signal strength is good enough
for stable reception, you can use a attic or indoor antenna. As long you
are far enough above the minimum signal strength for reception to
maintain reception for the stations you want to get for bad weather or
changing seasons, you are set.

I have a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie and a CM pre-amp in the
attic of my townhouse. If you walked by, you would have no clue that I
had an antenna setup which picks up stations in DC at 16 miles,
Baltimore stations at 43 miles, and a few other stations in other
directions, including one at 48 miles. I could probably get a couple of
more minor stations if I put the antenna up on the roof with a rotator.
But I have a 3 story townhouse and the roof is way up there with no
chimney to use for bracing. I have thought about putting the CM 4221 up
on the roof, along with a Winegard YA6713 upper VHF antenna to prepare
for the more distant local stations switching to upper VHF in 2009. But
I would have to spend money on a professional installer and would have
to deal with occasional maintenance issues. So I'm sticking with the
attic for now.

Lower profile antenna are also popular that mount on the side of the
house. These may be mounted on the backside or a side of the house that
is not visible or obvious from the street. Some of these low profile
antennas are not very good and are overpriced, but if they are good
enough to get a stable signal, then they are good enough for the job at
hand.

Despite what Bob may think, stats from a major survey done for the FCC
several years ago showed that around 15% of households that have TVs are
OTA only. But there are also many millions of households who have cable
or satellite, that also have TVs in the kitchen, bedrooms, other rooms
that have OTA only for that TV. They use cable or satellite for the main
TV or TVs only and don't bother with a cable run or STB for some or all
of their secondary TVs.

No, free OTA is not going to go away. The NAB has made it's big
concession to give up UHF 52 to 69. They and the OTA public have enough
points & pull with congress to keep VHF 7 to UHF 51 for decades to come.
Low VHF 2 to 6 may go away or be consolidated to several channels at
some point because of few stations using those channels. But low VHF
with 3 to 5 meter wavelengths is not nearly as valuable for auction and
portable communications as the upper UHF channels.

Pass the word. ATSC 8-VSB works quite well despite what you may read
from one borderline/obsessed personality who posts here with the initial
of BM.

Alan F

Bob, you ignoring slut. Unklike Jane Curtin who was an ignorant slut,
Bob keeps ignoring the fact that 8VSB is the law and my reception is
GREAT. Every week or so, he tells us how bad it's gonna be.

Now I may be in the minority, but when I saw how goooood OTA HDTV was,
I dumped cable. I'm not alone. Many people are reverting to OTA.
It's not a stampede, but with HD cable costing $1000 a year (with no
premium channels), some people are returning to OTA. OK, I don't get
ESPN, but I don't care about sports. I do miss some of the additional
programming on LIFE, AMC, TNT, etc, but it's not worth $1000 a year.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
In article .com,
NadCixelsyd wrote:

Now I may be in the minority, but when I saw how goooood OTA HDTV was,
I dumped cable.

So for you, it's picture quality over content quality. Right?

You keep jumping to that conclusion. That's probably the only exercise
you get.

Matthew

--
I'm a consultant. If you want an opinion I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?

This is pure bull****.

I dumped cable and dish and will stick with OTA HDTV.

It is growing like crazy and will really ramp up after 2008.

Why? Because commercial advertisers on OTA will start pulling in a
greater percentage of consumers than ever before.
..




On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 00:35:52 GMT, Bob Miller wrote:

I have predicted that not to long after the digital transition is over
in 2009 that Congresscritters or a Congresscritter might notice that
virtually no one is using digital channels 2-51.

And that this would lead to a proposal that these channel should be
taken from their current licensees and sold at auction. The idea of an
auction will be fresh in Congresscritters minds since they will have
just had one for channels 52, 53, 56, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 66 and 67.
The billions they took in without having to vote for a tax will be very
fresh in their collective minds. (Google just promised at least $4.6
billion today).

With the arrival of figures showing that after the transition as few as
or less than ONE% of US households now depend on OTA....

With the fresh smell of money, $15 to $30 billion from the auctions of
60 MHz of BROADCAST TV spectrum in 2008....

And with the prospect of selling off the rest, 294 MHz of spectrum now
occupied by Cable money myopic broadcasters, now planted in their minds,
new age, those ushered in as the Republican party implodes,
Congresscritters will have a field day with the prospect.

And earlier than I expected it the press is starting to talk of just
this prospect.

http://www.drewclark.com/2007/07/bac...aper-bag.shtml

And a related article about some of the corruption in broadcasting that
picks our pockets.
http://www.newamerica.net/publicatio...ctrum_lobbying

Broadcasters are going to loose their spectrum, all of it.

Didn't have to happen if they were a bit more hyperopia. If they had
been awake at the wheel when things like their DTV modulation
compression codec were being discussed.

Bob Miller

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
link.net...

Bruce Tomlin wrote:

snip

Guess what Bob... THOSE RABBIT EARS WILL STILL WORK.


If they do there will not be a problem. I don't think they will work.

8VSB is working well for me. I live south of San Diego and I regularly get
OTA DTV from Los Angeles, 124 miles distant. Yesterday, I got KCBS-DT on a
rusty, old 2-bay bowtie in the eaves of my garage. The garage is on the
south side of the house, so the Ch. 60 signal had to get around the house
and pass through the garage wall to get to the antenna. The antenna frame
has four little feet on it and it's designed to sit on or near the TV it
serves.

With some freezes and tiling, it was crappy reception, to be sure -- that
little antenna usually serves me only for my "locals" and I was just goofing
around when KCBS-DT (ERP = 469 KW) appeared. I expect to have to use my
roof-mounted yagi for the LA stations.

My point is this: My vintage tuner locked a far-fringe signal received on a
pathetic antenna near ground level with an abundance of multipath riding on
it. Frankly, I don't see the problem.

"Sal"