SDTV vs HDTV with ATSC Tuners

If a device has an ATSC tuner inside, how do you know if the tuner can
decode HDTV? Seems like all the DVD recorders out now that advertise that
they have ATSC tuners are only decoding SDTV, not HDTV. Here's a really
dumb question, do all 16:9 televisions with an ATSC tuner, whether they are
CRT or flat panel, is it a given that they are displaying HDTV? I see some
tvs and boxes advertise that they accept QAM for cable, but there's no
mention of 8VSB. Do all ASTC tuners do 8VSB, while only some offer the
ability to accept cable QAM? I don't care about QAM (now anyway), as I'm
still on an analog cable system and would pull in the HDTV OTA.

I current have a Hi-Scan Sony Wega that accepts component video. I've been
looking at a Samsung DTBH260F ATSC tuner box. It appears to offer true
HDTV output. Philips is also selling some really inexpensive wide-screen
tube tvs with HDTV tuner, but the specs seems vague. There's no mention as
to whether the set can display 720p/1080i, so I'm left wondering whether
the ATSC tuner inside is only decoding SDTV.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:54:33 +0000, Alphabet Soup wrote:

If a device has an ATSC tuner inside, how do you know if the tuner can
decode HDTV?

Because that part of the ATSC specs.

Seems like all the DVD recorders out now that advertise that
they have ATSC tuners are only decoding SDTV, not HDTV.

Well, they can't record the HD so DVD so they downconvert it to SD first.
Some will passthru HD content I believe, but they will only record in SD.

Here's a really dumb question, do all 16:9 televisions with an ATSC
tuner, whether they are CRT or flat panel, is it a given that they are
displaying HDTV?

No, only if the are HDTV's, but what's HD resolution? Many Plasmas have a
native resolution of less than 1280x720 yet are still called HDTV's. If
the Tv is a widescreen, you'll see the same whole image as anyone else, no
matter what the resolution is.

I see some tvs and boxes advertise that they accept QAM for cable, but
there's no mention of 8VSB. Do all ASTC tuners do 8VSB, while only some
offer the ability to accept cable QAM? I don't care about QAM (now
anyway), as I'm still on an analog cable system and would pull in the
HDTV OTA.

The ATSC spec. uses 8vsb, so all ATSC tuners do 8vsb.

I current have a Hi-Scan Sony Wega that accepts component video. I've
been looking at a Samsung DTBH260F ATSC tuner box. It appears to offer
true HDTV output. Philips is also selling some really inexpensive
wide-screen tube tvs with HDTV tuner, but the specs seems vague. There's
no mention as to whether the set can display 720p/1080i, so I'm left
wondering whether the ATSC tuner inside is only decoding SDTV.

Any TV is fully capable of displaying all the picture from any HDTV
signal. Now whether the box you use will put it out is another story, but
using MythTV, I can watch a full 16:9 HDTV program on my old 32" SDTV. The
only difference between what I see and what you would see with a real HDTV
is the resolution and of course i have the unused black bars above and
below the 16:9 picture. To be honest, I never use this mode. I zoom the
16:9 to full screen, chopping off the edges of the of the widescreen show
and enhancing the overall resolution of the remaining full screen pictue.

--
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On Jul 16, 4:54 pm, Alphabet Soup wrote:
If a device has an ATSC tuner inside, how do you know if the tuner can
decode HDTV? Seems like all the DVD recorders out now that advertise that
they have ATSC tuners are only decoding SDTV, not HDTV. Here's a really
dumb question, do all 16:9 televisions with an ATSC tuner, whether they are
CRT or flat panel, is it a given that they are displaying HDTV? I see some
tvs and boxes advertise that they accept QAM for cable, but there's no
mention of 8VSB. Do all ASTC tuners do 8VSB, while only some offer the
ability to accept cable QAM? I don't care about QAM (now anyway), as I'm
still on an analog cable system and would pull in the HDTV OTA.

I current have a Hi-Scan Sony Wega that accepts component video. I've been
looking at a Samsung DTBH260F ATSC tuner box. It appears to offer true
HDTV output. Philips is also selling some really inexpensive wide-screen
tube tvs with HDTV tuner, but the specs seems vague. There's no mention as
to whether the set can display 720p/1080i, so I'm left wondering whether
the ATSC tuner inside is only decoding SDTV.

How about I explain this with an example of my experience:

ATSC doesn't necessarily care if the format of the video is SDTV or
HDTV, it will decode it either way. The difference is what resolution
is output to the display. I have a DVD recorder (Philips 3505 or
something) with an ATSC tuner (digital tuner). It will tune all of my
available digital TV stations whether they are broadcasting in SD or
HD. For instance, channel 5 (Fox) has two subchannels (5.1, 5.2), one
is their HD feed, and the other is a simulcast (i.e. the same content)
in SD. My tuner decodes and displays both of those channels equally
well.
However, my DVD recorder does not record (or natively display) content
in a high definition resolution (HD), it only displays and records in
standard definition (although technically I think it will do 480p). If
you have it connected via HDMI, then it will upscale any content to
the appropriate (pre-selected) HD resolution, whether it is a DVD or
OTA broadcast. Component connection is limited to 480p for any content
(no upscaling), but it will also output as 480i for standard TV sets
(SDTV digital sets).
I hope that explains the way ATSC tuners work.

As far as whether any and all widescreen sets are HDTVs, the answer is
no. Wal-mart sells very few sets now that are not a thin flat-panel
LCD or Plasma set (especially over 30" sizes), but they do offer a
couple of 30"+ sets (widescreen & 4:3 models) that are SDTV only.
Meaning that the highest resolution that they can display is 480i (for
16:9 sets that would be a resolution of 720x480 max, 640x480 for
standard ratio). However, just because they only display an SD
resolution, it doesn't mean they can't tune all of the ATSC
broadcasts. From my experience, HD broadcasts look better than SD
broadcasts even on an SD set.
This does NOT mean, however, that you will ever be able be able to see
HD resolutions on an SD set. It will have no problem tuning the
station, but it will not be displayed at a High Definition resolution,
ever. It still looks good though, and it is digital quality.

Specifically, the TVs and tuners you mentioned will work fine with all
OTA broadcasts. The Sony, I believe, is only an SD set, a good one,
but still only SD (I could be wrong though). The Samsung digital tuner
does output HD resolution from any ATSC broadcast (assuming it is HD
content). The Philips tube TVs that you refer to, may or may not be HD
sets. I have seen both SD and HD widescreen sets offered. Find a model
number for it, then look it up (try this: google.com). You could try
and ask for a copy of the owners manual (at the store), which would
almost certainly explain what resolutions it would accept and/or
display. The ATSC tuner will decode the signal no matter the
resolution, but the display can only provide you with its maximum (or
native depending on the technology) resolution.

One more side note: Almost all LCDs are HDTVs now. The only exceptions
to this are the 19" and smaller ones that stores still have in stock.
These are pretty easy to spot since they usually only include an
analog tuner.
I don't know of many places that sell large (26"+) flat-panel sets
that are not HD sets now.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:54:33 -0000 Alphabet Soup wrote:
| If a device has an ATSC tuner inside, how do you know if the tuner can
| decode HDTV? Seems like all the DVD recorders out now that advertise that
| they have ATSC tuners are only decoding SDTV, not HDTV. Here's a really
| dumb question, do all 16:9 televisions with an ATSC tuner, whether they are
| CRT or flat panel, is it a given that they are displaying HDTV? I see some
| tvs and boxes advertise that they accept QAM for cable, but there's no
| mention of 8VSB. Do all ASTC tuners do 8VSB, while only some offer the
| ability to accept cable QAM? I don't care about QAM (now anyway), as I'm
| still on an analog cable system and would pull in the HDTV OTA.

ATSC by definition (of the standard) specifies 8VSB. If it complies with
ATSC it has 8VSB.


| I current have a Hi-Scan Sony Wega that accepts component video. I've been
| looking at a Samsung DTBH260F ATSC tuner box. It appears to offer true
| HDTV output. Philips is also selling some really inexpensive wide-screen
| tube tvs with HDTV tuner, but the specs seems vague. There's no mention as
| to whether the set can display 720p/1080i, so I'm left wondering whether
| the ATSC tuner inside is only decoding SDTV.

Does your display have an info button that adds an on-screen window showing
the video mode its getting?

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:40:40 GMT Wes Newell wrote:
| On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:54:33 +0000, Alphabet Soup wrote:
|
| If a device has an ATSC tuner inside, how do you know if the tuner can
| decode HDTV?
|
| Because that part of the ATSC specs.
|
| Seems like all the DVD recorders out now that advertise that
| they have ATSC tuners are only decoding SDTV, not HDTV.
|
| Well, they can't record the HD so DVD so they downconvert it to SD first.
| Some will passthru HD content I believe, but they will only record in SD.

They _could_ record HD. But they would not get very much time on a DVD
doing so. If a BR-DVD can record 2 hours, a regular DVD could at most
get about 22 minutes of that kind of quality. And that's assuming the
recording mechanism can handle the datarate (some computer DVD-R drives
certainly can, so this is plausibly doable).

But there wouldn't be much point in such a recorder since no one would
really want it.

A hard-drive based recorder might be doable, but it would still need to
downconvert to SD or way overcompress to get the full program on. But
at least it could judge how much it has to do based on how long it lasts
if it is pre-recorded into the hard drive first.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:08:08 +0000, phil-news-nospam wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:40:40 GMT Wes Newell wrote:
| On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:54:33 +0000, Alphabet Soup wrote:
|
| If a device has an ATSC tuner inside, how do you know if the tuner can
| decode HDTV?
|
| Because that part of the ATSC specs.
|
| Seems like all the DVD recorders out now that advertise that
| they have ATSC tuners are only decoding SDTV, not HDTV.
|
| Well, they can't record the HD so DVD so they downconvert it to SD first.
| Some will passthru HD content I believe, but they will only record in SD.

They _could_ record HD. But they would not get very much time on a DVD
doing so. If a BR-DVD can record 2 hours, a regular DVD could at most
get about 22 minutes of that kind of quality. And that's assuming the
recording mechanism can handle the datarate (some computer DVD-R drives
certainly can, so this is plausibly doable).

But there wouldn't be much point in such a recorder since no one would
really want it.

Correct, I chose my words poorly. FWIW, it takes about 7GB for every hour
of HD.

A hard-drive based recorder might be doable, but it would still need to
downconvert to SD or way overcompress to get the full program on. But
at least it could judge how much it has to do based on how long it lasts
if it is pre-recorded into the hard drive first.

I'm nor sure what you're trying to say here, but HDD ATSC HD recorders
have been around for years. With a total of about 1.2TB drive storage
space, I can record 180+ hours of ATSC HDTV content, or over 1000 hours of
ATSC SD content. With what I record, it averages out to a little more than
200 hours since there's only a couple a ATSC stations here with their main
broadcast in SD. All the major network stations here broadcast in HD or SD
over HD, which takes the same amount of space (if you don't convert it,
and I don't bother).

--
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http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:55:43 GMT Wes Newell wrote:

| A hard-drive based recorder might be doable, but it would still need to
| downconvert to SD or way overcompress to get the full program on. But
| at least it could judge how much it has to do based on how long it lasts
| if it is pre-recorded into the hard drive first.
|
| I'm nor sure what you're trying to say here, but HDD ATSC HD recorders
| have been around for years. With a total of about 1.2TB drive storage
| space, I can record 180+ hours of ATSC HDTV content, or over 1000 hours of
| ATSC SD content. With what I record, it averages out to a little more than
| 200 hours since there's only a couple a ATSC stations here with their main
| broadcast in SD. All the major network stations here broadcast in HD or SD
| over HD, which takes the same amount of space (if you don't convert it,
| and I don't bother).

I don't mean a PVR device like TiVo. What I mean is a removable HD unit,
such as a microdrive or notebook drive. The portable USB drives could be
used, too.

CF, for example, now can be had with the same capacity as HD-DVD, though
it is quite expensive. But it is reliable and scratch resistant (just
be careful not to damage the socket pins). And it can be recorded over
more times than a DVD-RW could.

When I have bulk data move around, I take it on hard drive. I've got 3
USB 160GB drives for this purpose now. And my 4 USB 500GB drives could
possibly also do the job (although they have file archives on them now).

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Many Plasmas have a native resolution of less than 1280x720 yet are still called HDTV's.

I remember reading somewhere that the "definition" of HDTV was 720 or
more lines vertically, but the definition made no mention of the
number of horizontal pixels. Hence, a plasma, 1024 x 768 can call
itself HD because it meets that 720 definition. In my mind, they
should add a horizontal pixel standard as well.

I was in WalMart yesterday and there was a 800x600 LCD TV. It did
have an ATSC tuner, but it did not call iteself HD because 600 is less
than 720. If the program is 16:9, then the picture would be 800x450.
It was slightly better than an analog TV.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:38:31 -0700, NadCixelsyd wrote:

I was in WalMart yesterday and there was a 800x600 LCD TV. It did
have an ATSC tuner, but it did not call iteself HD because 600 is less
than 720. If the program is 16:9, then the picture would be 800x450.
It was slightly better than an analog TV.

I'm no expert on this but I think most SDTV's will do 800x600. I've got an
older Sanyo 32" that wasn't a high end model (cost $278 several years
ago) and it'll do 800x600. Hooked to a mythtv box via S-video running X at
800x600 resolution. It may only except it and downconvert it to a lower
res, but it takes the 800x600. It sure isn't as clear as an 800x600
monitor would be but it works fine. IIRC I'm pretty sure the specs on the
TV stated max res at 800x600 too.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

On Jul 17, 6:08 am, wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:40:40 GMT Wes Newell
wrote:
| On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:54:33 +0000, Alphabet Soup wrote:
|
| If a device has an ATSC tuner inside, how do you know if the
tuner can
| decode HDTV?
|
| Because that part of the ATSC specs.
|
| Seems like all the DVD recorders out now that advertise that
| they have ATSC tuners are only decoding SDTV, not HDTV.
|
| Well, they can't record the HD so DVD so they downconvert it to
SD first.
| Some will passthru HD content I believe, but they will only
record in SD.

They _could_ record HD. But they would not get very much time on a
DVD
doing so. If a BR-DVD can record 2 hours, a regular DVD could at
most
get about 22 minutes of that kind of quality. And that's assuming
the
recording mechanism can handle the datarate (some computer DVD-R
drives
certainly can, so this is plausibly doable).

But there wouldn't be much point in such a recorder since no one
would
really want it.

A hard-drive based recorder might be doable, but it would still
need to
downconvert to SD or way overcompress to get the full program on.
But
at least it could judge how much it has to do based on how long it
lasts
if it is pre-recorded into the hard drive first.

--

|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------*|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the
address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net /
|

|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------*|

I get the impression you think the hard disk recorder would record the
un-compressed data but that isn't the case at all. The raw data stream
from the digital tuner which is "only" 2.45 Megabytes/second is
recorded. This doesn't stress anything at all. For example the
recording computer can be in record in HD, play out 2 previously
recorded streams to 2 other computers and surf the web with no ill
effects using plain-jane 10/100 Cat 5 cables. There are currently 60 1
hour (42 minutes after removing the spots) shows on this machine on a
500 gig drive with 100 gig free. There are also 35 gigs of photos, 30
gigs of CDs (all legally purchased) used to make MP3s for the car, I.E
a general computer. The other 2 machines also have 500 gig drives.
AND, those 160 gig USB drives for $50 at Fry's are dandy for taking a
TV show to work for one of the guys. The 320 gig for $80 was even
better. Obviously playing real-time off the USB drive works just fine.
These are not rocket computers, just old Athlon XP 3200s.

GG