Another dumb question..

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On Tue, 22 May 2007 14:16:36 -0500, luckyvic wrote:


People buy HD sets for access to HD channels and put up with
the bad analog
channels.If you don't plan on upgrading to HD with your cable
system then I
would not spend the money on a HD set.

You can get all the HD you want for free with a regular TV
antenna. And it
will be better HD than you get from the cable/sat compaines.
Many have
been doing it for years. You don't need anything from the
cable or sat
companies for HDTV.


Recently an ABC, 720p, 2 hour episodic finale captured in HD and
edited with VRD down to ~82 minutes, resulted in a 6.53 GB file.
A CBS, 1080i, 2 hour movie captured in HD and edited with VRD
down to ~84 minutes, resulted in a 9.70 GB file. That's a
startling 148%. All other things being equal there
is but a small, 13% frame content + 2% time differential,
increase between the 1280x720x60 (55,296,000 pps) and
1920x540x60 (62,208,000 pps). It appears, to me, that ABC, in
this case, was compressing their 720p OTA transmission
significantly more than CBS's 1080i.

Arguments favoring 720p for fast motion material would seem
moot, if the transmission at 1080i is ~30% richer in bit to
pixel
content. Using bits per pixel as a guide:

720p total pixels = 272,056,320,000 or bpp = 0.206
1080i total pixels = 313,528,320,000 or bpp = 0.266
115% increase in displayed pixels vs. 129% increase in bits per
pixel.

Neither show had challenging fast motion shots and neither
appeared, to my eyes, superior to the other in any way. Both
were played back at 1920x1080p from a PC via ATI x1300-256 / DVI
to a 42" LCD monitor.

Typically, here, unencrypted QAM HDTV captures, from the few
such HDTV channels available on TW, produce edited files of
about 90% the size of the 720p OTA edited capture cited.

So, yes! You're right! Cable TV is compressing a tad further
than OTA - and I suppose that is one-pass from the OTA
broadcast, which would be much worse than compressing at a
higher percentage from the original material. However, it also
appears that some OTA channels are compressing much more than
other OTA channels.

Ultimately, I've yet to discern any difference while watching
non-sporting HDTV video at cable compression rates (N.B. I don't
happen to watch sporting video much, except for sailing and
curling; neither challenging to compression rates;-) So,
perhaps the whole topic is really a non-issue? Except that: I
do get more drop-outs ATSC than QAM.

"=(8)" wrote in message
...

snip

But then you have another class of people like myself that
could careless about cable or satellite channels and want a
60" TV for the theater feel while watching DVDs and would
gladly buy a non-HDTV if one was available in 60". I find it
amazing that these things cost so much and yet so little
programming is available (at least programming not on the
crappy cable channels). HD was and is a suckers bet. They have
everyone convinced it is so much better yet very little makes
good use of it and most HD programming is 720 besides. I guess
the electronics companies, the federal government in their
rush to rake the bucks selling the analog spectrum and the
cable and satellite companies looking to gouge customers more
found a great suckers bet.

You're mistaken. A 60" TV with only 640x480 pixels would yield
an undesirable ppi (pixels per inch). You'd not enjoy the
picture at all unless you watched from a neighbor's home.

A 1920x1080 display is not, in and of itself, HD. It merely has
the ability to display today's HDTV image. It also has the
ability to display a scaled 720x480 or 640x480, or even less,
image and is only dependant upon source quality and how good the
scaling algorithm employed is.

My 42" 1080p monitor has access to a paltry 19 HDTV cable
channels. Most of the video entertainment at home comes from
SDTV and DVD - all of which have a far superior appearance to
their presentation on the 32" raster TV which took 3 times the
volume and weight.

N.B. 720p is used in SoCal by FOX and ABC. ALL the rest (that's
another 17 cable channels) use 1080i.

wrote in message
...
"=\(8\)" wrote:
"G-squared" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 24, 6:41 pm, "=\(8\)" wrote:
snip
But then you have another class of people like myself that could
careless
about cable or satellite channels and want a 60" TV for the theater
feel
while watching DVDs and would gladly buy a non-HDTV if one was
available in
60". I find it amazing that these things cost so much and yet so
little
programming is available (at least programming not on the crappy
cable
channels). HD was and is a suckers bet. They have everyone
convinced it is
so much better yet very little makes good use of it and most HD
programming
is 720 besides. I guess the electronics companies, the federal
government in
their rush to rake the bucks selling the analog spectrum and the
cable and
satellite companies looking to gouge customers more found a great
suckers
bet.

=(8)

No programming? Where do you live? ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS run lots of
HD content in prime time. I don't have enough time to watch it all.
ABC and Fox are 720, the others are 1080i. BTW, I use OTA only for HD.

I think you're Bob Miller (or one of his clones)

GG


Sorry don't know bob millar. As for 1080i according to the stations
within 100 miles none of them are doing 1080i only 720. Still see no need
or desire for HD, just want an ultra large screen to watch my DVDs on.

=(8)

Really? What zip code are you in? Only Fox and ABC do 720p ota.

Chip

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

Just north of San Francisco. I contacted all of the major stations as was
told they only do 720 and this is the same information I got from sales
people at Sears, Best Buy and Circuit City... not that those sales people
are necessarily in the know. But when many sources tell you that 720 is it
and that only HD DVD does 1080... well you have at some point trust someone.

=(8)

On 24 May 2007 22:23:38 -0700, G-squared wrote:



No programming? Where do you live? ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS run lots of
HD content in prime time. I don't have enough time to watch it all.

Some of us aren't so fortunate. I get ABC and NBC in HD and that's
it!

Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TX
http://davidclary.com

"=\(8\)" wrote:
wrote in message
...
"=\(8\)" wrote:
"G-squared" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 24, 6:41 pm, "=\(8\)" wrote:
snip
But then you have another class of people like myself that could
careless
about cable or satellite channels and want a 60" TV for the
theater
feel
while watching DVDs and would gladly buy a non-HDTV if one was
available in
60". I find it amazing that these things cost so much and yet so
little
programming is available (at least programming not on the crappy
cable
channels). HD was and is a suckers bet. They have everyone
convinced it is
so much better yet very little makes good use of it and most HD
programming
is 720 besides. I guess the electronics companies, the federal
government in
their rush to rake the bucks selling the analog spectrum and the
cable and
satellite companies looking to gouge customers more found a great
suckers
bet.

=(8)

No programming? Where do you live? ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS run lots
of HD content in prime time. I don't have enough time to watch it
all. ABC and Fox are 720, the others are 1080i. BTW, I use OTA only
for HD.

I think you're Bob Miller (or one of his clones)

GG


Sorry don't know bob millar. As for 1080i according to the stations
within 100 miles none of them are doing 1080i only 720. Still see no
need or desire for HD, just want an ultra large screen to watch my
DVDs on.

=(8)

Really? What zip code are you in? Only Fox and ABC do 720p ota.

Chip

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

Just north of San Francisco. I contacted all of the major stations as
was told they only do 720 and this is the same information I got from
sales people at Sears, Best Buy and Circuit City... not that those sales
people are necessarily in the know. But when many sources tell you that
720 is it and that only HD DVD does 1080... well you have at some point
trust someone.

=(8)

If these many sources are telling you that only HD DVD does 1080,
then you shouldn't be trusting them, because they are wrong.
Here is a list of what you might get where you live:
http://antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx
I can't say for certain, but I doubt the NBC, CBS, and PBS stations are in 720. JMHO.

Chip

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

On May 25, 6:50 pm, wrote:
On 24 May 2007 22:23:38 -0700, G-squared
wrote:



No programming? Where do you live? ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS run
lots of
HD content in prime time. I don't have enough time to watch it
all.

Some of us aren't so fortunate. I get ABC and NBC in HD and that's
it!

Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TXhttp://davidclary.com

Sorry Dave. I know you're waiting to see Cameron ('House' on Fox) in
HD.

GG

In article "=\(8\)" writes:

Just north of San Francisco. I contacted all of the major stations as was
told they only do 720 and this is the same information I got from sales
people at Sears, Best Buy and Circuit City... not that those sales people
are necessarily in the know. But when many sources tell you that 720 is it
and that only HD DVD does 1080... well you have at some point trust someone.

They lied.

The "major" network channels in San Francisco a

2.1 - Fox 720
5.1 - CBS 1080
7.1 - ABC 720
9.1 - PBS 1080
11.1 - NBC 1080
44.1 - CW 1080

Two others are also 720 - 4.2 (My) -- which may have been 1080 before it became My, not sure.
and 20.1, which was carrying news produced by channel 7 in 720.

It looks like there is a lot of 1080 here.

Alan

Bill's News wrote:
"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On Tue, 22 May 2007 14:16:36 -0500, luckyvic wrote:


People buy HD sets for access to HD channels and put up with
the bad analog
channels.If you don't plan on upgrading to HD with your cable
system then I
would not spend the money on a HD set.

You can get all the HD you want for free with a regular TV
antenna. And it
will be better HD than you get from the cable/sat compaines.
Many have
been doing it for years. You don't need anything from the
cable or sat
companies for HDTV.


Recently an ABC, 720p, 2 hour episodic finale captured in HD and
edited with VRD down to ~82 minutes, resulted in a 6.53 GB file.
A CBS, 1080i, 2 hour movie captured in HD and edited with VRD
down to ~84 minutes, resulted in a 9.70 GB file. That's a
startling 148%. All other things being equal there
is but a small, 13% frame content + 2% time differential,
increase between the 1280x720x60 (55,296,000 pps) and
1920x540x60 (62,208,000 pps). It appears, to me, that ABC, in
this case, was compressing their 720p OTA transmission
significantly more than CBS's 1080i.


Probably not the way you think. The higher frame rate and lower pixel
count of 720P work together to allow for higher compression than 1080i
at roughly the same quality level.

Matthew

--
I'm a consultant. If you want an opinion I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?

On 25 May 2007 20:44:48 -0700, G-squared wrote:

On May 25, 6:50 pm, wrote:
On 24 May 2007 22:23:38 -0700, G-squared
wrote:



No programming? Where do you live? ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS run
lots of
HD content in prime time. I don't have enough time to watch it
all.

Some of us aren't so fortunate. I get ABC and NBC in HD and that's
it!

Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TXhttp://davidclary.com

Sorry Dave. I know you're waiting to see Cameron ('House' on Fox) in
HD.

GG

LOL!! You betcha! :-)

Dave

Would be nice to have a similar Toronto area A/B comparison with
StarChoice satellite. Any testers?

--
All the Best,
Richard Harison
"Some Other Guy" wrote in message
...
Bill's News wrote:
So, yes! You're right! Cable TV is compressing a tad further than OTA

I know that for sure. I'm in Toronto, and flipping back and forth between
Roger's Cable and OTA on the CTV HD (1080) channel makes a clearly visible
difference. The cable signal is far more compressed.

Given how many HD OTA stations there are today, and how there are likely
to be more, I'm strongly considering ditching cable completely and putting
up a nice big antenna tower.