HD Signal Level Needed ??

Jim, I would have recommended that you go with the Channel Master 4228
over the DB-8. They are close in performance for UHF, but the CM 4228
has better performance for upper VHF and is less expensive. See the
"Using a UHF antenna for VHF" charts at
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html. Click on the links
for the two antennas to see the beam pattern diagrams and write-up on
the two antennas. This is part of this useful website:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html. But if you have
already ordered the DB8, give it a shot.

Yes, because of the flat design of the UHF bowtie style antennas,
depending on how the house is oriented, some people mount the antenna
flush close to an outside wall or under the eaves for a lower profile.
They may use the satellite dish mounts for the antenna as Channel Master
is showing with the CM 4220 2 Bay bowtie picture on their website:
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/.

Looking at where you are, you are about 60 miles from some of the San
Diego stations. You should try to aim the antenna towards San Diego as
well to see if any of the stations come in.

Good luck,
Alan F


Jim wrote:
Friday, May 11 2007, @2:44 PM (-0700 GMT)

Thank you David and Alan... Great input!

Well, I guess I'll know for sure in a week or two when the DB8 and the
CM7775 get here.

I hadn't thought about the fact that the UHF only DB8 is so SMALL
compared with the analog type huge yagis I'm used to thinking about. I
think the DB8 is (roughly) one meter square, not much bigger than a
Direct TV or Dish Network parabolic dish. Maybe, just maybe, my
neighbors would not scream and hollar if I put it at the far back side
of the house, on the roof, and just barely high enough to clear the
roof line? Hmmm The testing will settle it one way or the other.


Thank you,

Jim
San Clemente, CA about 2 miles from 'Tricky Dicks' Western White house




On Fri, 11 May 2007 19:25:57 GMT, Alan F
wrote:

Jim wrote:
Friday, May 11 2007, @ 7:25 AM (-0700 GMT)

Alan,

Thank you for the VERY descrikptive and meaningful post. Very GOOD
info!

I'm really amazed to learn that I need LESS signal with digital than
analog. That real was not what I expected. I'm an 'old school'
RF/Microwave engineer and really thought the opposite. To me, the
bandwidth of an HD signal seemed to spell out that it would 'take
more' to receive. Oh well, its GREAT to learn new things! I'm
amazed that, based on looking at my 'number crunching,' that you feel
an attic antenna WILL work in my situation. Gee, that would be GREAT.
I could fight the HOA, and, as I've been told by others in this group,
they WOULD lose, but then I want to be a 'good neighbor' and many may
be angry with me if I 'junk up' the neighborhood with a rooftop
antenna.

Are you pretty confident about the signal levels you mentioned? Can I
really expect a decent picture with signal levels in the -80 to -114
dBM range at my HD sets antenna input? It seems low to me, but again,
I'm thinking in analog terms. If that's really TRUE, I should be
able to get usable OTA reception.
I can't say that the antenna in the attic will work for sure. Just too
many variables, given your range to the broadcast towers, to say one way
or the other. You could have a building or tall clump of trees in the
way or the construction materials used in the house & roof cut the
signal down too much. The only way to find out, short of spending a lot
of money on a professional installer who would bring a spectrum analyzer
& test antennas, is to get a CM 4228 - Frys Electronics is known to
carry them, a 50' long RG-6 cable, set it up on the back deck or
upstairs first, then the attic and give it a go. I think it would be fun
for a RF engineer to try.

I went back to tvfool.com and entered my exact long & lat and 40' for
the antenna. Shows the local digital stations I get with a CM 4221 in
the attic of my townhouse as ranging from -68 to -108 dBm. For some of
those weaker stations at 43 miles, my antenna is looking lengthwise down
the row of townhouses through the top of 3 THs which are slightly
uphill. I would get better results if I put the antenna on the roof, but
the roof is way up there and I would have to get a professional
installer to put it up there with a rotator.

I may someday put the antenna on the roof, just to get a few more
remote stations. While I have a HOA, they don't try to restrict antennas
on the roof. I imagine if it were not for the FCC, I'm sure there are
control freaks at my HOA who would love to ban antennas above the roof
line. I personally think an antenna on the roof is a beautiful and
functional sight.

One caveat with tvfool.com is that it may show a number of low power
digital stations that are not on the air yet. Most Class A & low power
stations will have to wait until they shut off their analog signal
before they can fire up their digital signal in what is called a digital
flash cut conversion. The digital entries for the LP station started to
show in the FCC database a few months ago, but those digital LP stations
are not likely to go on the air until close to the shutdown day on
February 17, 2009. For the countdown clock, go to www.dtv.gov.

One thing I should've mentioned in my original post: I want to 'dump
Cox' but what I really meant was to dump their local channel HD and
their DVR. I've heard that Cox compresses quite a bit and that OTA HD,
if I can get it, will provide a better picture. Is this true? I want
to keep Cox's 'Basic Cable' and their 'Expanded Basic' so as to
continue to receive things like 'The History Channel,' 'Fox News,'
etc. I would use a TiVo Series 3 for OTA HD recording.

Thanks to you, Mr. Shag'nNasty, and other posters for GOOD input. Why
don't we meet here in S.C. at a local pizza place for a pitcher ?

Jim
San Clemente
You have to check with the local threads for the LA area to see how
much compression Cox does there. The large cable companies - Comcast,
Time Warner, Cox - all consists of many territories cobbled together
from different cable companies they took over / brought out over the
years. In one area, they may have newer equipment and more bandwidth so
they don't need to re-compress the HD locals. In other areas, they are
bandwidth limited until they shut down most of the analog channels.

Look for the LA threads under the sticky: "United States Thread index"
he
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...sprune=30&f=45.
avsforum.com is one of the best net resources for all things HD.

Many cable companies do not provide all the HD locals, which is
another reason to put up an antenna. In my case, I switched to Verizon
Fios from Adelphia/Comcast last fall and get all the Washington DC HD
locals via Verizon. When I moved in to my townhouse in 2005, Adelphia
did not provide the local PBS, WB and UPN stations on the HD tier, so I
put up an antenna (had fun experimenting with it too). They added the
DC PBS station a few months later, but that was it. I am also able to
get the Baltimore HD stations with the antenna which is a nice plus.
Comcast officially took over the local Adelphia system (Loudoun county,
VA) last August and still does not have the local CW or My Network
stations in their HD line-up. So if I was stuck with Comcast or either
of the 2 satellite providers, I would have to use an antenna to get CW
or My Network in HD. With the antenna, I get stations - both HD and SD -
& sub-channels that are likely to never show up on cable, DBS, or Fios.

One warning about the Series 3 Tivo and that is you should research
whether your Cox system is planning to use "switched Digital Video". Do
a search for it.

Whew, this was a long post. I hope this helps, not only yourself, but
other readers who may be thinking about putting up an antenna! Good luck.

Alan F

Saturday, May 12 2007, @7:26 AM (-0700 GMT)

Hi Alan,

Please see below...

On Sat, 12 May 2007 01:20:25 GMT, Alan F
wrote:

Jim, I would have recommended that you go with the Channel Master 4228
over the DB-8. They are close in performance for UHF, but the CM 4228
has better performance for upper VHF and is less expensive. See the
"Using a UHF antenna for VHF" charts at
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html. Click on the links
for the two antennas to see the beam pattern diagrams and write-up on
the two antennas. This is part of this useful website:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html. But if you have
already ordered the DB8, give it a shot.

The only reason I did not order the CM 4228 in place of Antennas
Direct DB8 is because I don't need the "upper VHF band" coverage.

If this "exercise" actually WORKS, and I find I can successfully
receive the Los Angeles transmitters from 60 miles out, and behind
some hills, about 105 feet below line of sight, I'll just dump the Cox
Cable HD service and their Motorola DVR which will save roughly
$25/month. I'll keep their Basic and Expanded Basic service so as to
receive what I never could OTA, i.e., The History Channel, Fox News,
and all that. An added thing will be that I'll also get "upper VHF"
thru Cox and not need to receive it OTA.

Yes, because of the flat design of the UHF bowtie style antennas,
depending on how the house is oriented, some people mount the antenna
flush close to an outside wall or under the eaves for a lower profile.
They may use the satellite dish mounts for the antenna as Channel Master
is showing with the CM 4220 2 Bay bowtie picture on their website:
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/.


Great idea above! I was wondering WHAT to use for a "mount?"
Excellent. According to UPS the package containing the DB8 antenna
only weighs 8 pounds. Geez! Is it made out of cardboard? Hahaha. I
keep thinking of BIG "old time" low VHF yagis and not thinking that,
at UHF, the antenna is MUCH smaller.

Lucky for me, my heavy tile roof, in the normal upside down "V shape,"
is oriented about west and east. The Los Angeles statios are at 330
degrees so at least I do not have to "look thru" the heavy roof tile!

I'll try the ant/amp upstairs, about 25 feet above ground, in a
hallway, looking thru windows at a bearing of 330 degrees and SEE what
happens, if anything. If I sound pessimistic, it's because I am. at
less than -103 dBM, or so, for the strongest station this may just me
a foolish thing to do. g But, as you well know, there are SO many
variables involved. sometimes you just have to TRY.

Looking at where you are, you are about 60 miles from some of the San
Diego stations. You should try to aim the antenna towards San Diego as
well to see if any of the stations come in.

Oh, I'll definetely TRY that too. I did not mention that in earlier
posts because, even tho I'm only about 50 miles from the San Diego
transmitters, they did NOT show up as an "option" when I looked at the
signal strength data provided by www.tvfool.com web site I used. I
felt that, since they did not list San Diego as an option, even tho
it's closer, it must be blocked out my high hills or a mountain to the
south, Mount Palomar, where the observatory is? I don't know.

Good luck,
Alan F

Thank you,
Jim
San Clemente, CA
http://www.HostsFile.info/
http://www.MicrowaveSoftware.com/




Jim wrote:
Friday, May 11 2007, @2:44 PM (-0700 GMT)

Thank you David and Alan... Great input!

Well, I guess I'll know for sure in a week or two when the DB8 and the
CM7775 get here.

I hadn't thought about the fact that the UHF only DB8 is so SMALL
compared with the analog type huge yagis I'm used to thinking about. I
think the DB8 is (roughly) one meter square, not much bigger than a
Direct TV or Dish Network parabolic dish. Maybe, just maybe, my
neighbors would not scream and hollar if I put it at the far back side
of the house, on the roof, and just barely high enough to clear the
roof line? Hmmm The testing will settle it one way or the other.


Thank you,

Jim
San Clemente, CA about 2 miles from 'Tricky Dicks' Western White house




On Fri, 11 May 2007 19:25:57 GMT, Alan F
wrote:

Jim wrote:
Friday, May 11 2007, @ 7:25 AM (-0700 GMT)

Alan,

Thank you for the VERY descrikptive and meaningful post. Very GOOD
info!

I'm really amazed to learn that I need LESS signal with digital than
analog. That real was not what I expected. I'm an 'old school'
RF/Microwave engineer and really thought the opposite. To me, the
bandwidth of an HD signal seemed to spell out that it would 'take
more' to receive. Oh well, its GREAT to learn new things! I'm
amazed that, based on looking at my 'number crunching,' that you feel
an attic antenna WILL work in my situation. Gee, that would be GREAT.
I could fight the HOA, and, as I've been told by others in this group,
they WOULD lose, but then I want to be a 'good neighbor' and many may
be angry with me if I 'junk up' the neighborhood with a rooftop
antenna.

Are you pretty confident about the signal levels you mentioned? Can I
really expect a decent picture with signal levels in the -80 to -114
dBM range at my HD sets antenna input? It seems low to me, but again,
I'm thinking in analog terms. If that's really TRUE, I should be
able to get usable OTA reception.
I can't say that the antenna in the attic will work for sure. Just too
many variables, given your range to the broadcast towers, to say one way
or the other. You could have a building or tall clump of trees in the
way or the construction materials used in the house & roof cut the
signal down too much. The only way to find out, short of spending a lot
of money on a professional installer who would bring a spectrum analyzer
& test antennas, is to get a CM 4228 - Frys Electronics is known to
carry them, a 50' long RG-6 cable, set it up on the back deck or
upstairs first, then the attic and give it a go. I think it would be fun
for a RF engineer to try.

I went back to tvfool.com and entered my exact long & lat and 40' for
the antenna. Shows the local digital stations I get with a CM 4221 in
the attic of my townhouse as ranging from -68 to -108 dBm. For some of
those weaker stations at 43 miles, my antenna is looking lengthwise down
the row of townhouses through the top of 3 THs which are slightly
uphill. I would get better results if I put the antenna on the roof, but
the roof is way up there and I would have to get a professional
installer to put it up there with a rotator.

I may someday put the antenna on the roof, just to get a few more
remote stations. While I have a HOA, they don't try to restrict antennas
on the roof. I imagine if it were not for the FCC, I'm sure there are
control freaks at my HOA who would love to ban antennas above the roof
line. I personally think an antenna on the roof is a beautiful and
functional sight.

One caveat with tvfool.com is that it may show a number of low power
digital stations that are not on the air yet. Most Class A & low power
stations will have to wait until they shut off their analog signal
before they can fire up their digital signal in what is called a digital
flash cut conversion. The digital entries for the LP station started to
show in the FCC database a few months ago, but those digital LP stations
are not likely to go on the air until close to the shutdown day on
February 17, 2009. For the countdown clock, go to www.dtv.gov.

One thing I should've mentioned in my original post: I want to 'dump
Cox' but what I really meant was to dump their local channel HD and
their DVR. I've heard that Cox compresses quite a bit and that OTA HD,
if I can get it, will provide a better picture. Is this true? I want
to keep Cox's 'Basic Cable' and their 'Expanded Basic' so as to
continue to receive things like 'The History Channel,' 'Fox News,'
etc. I would use a TiVo Series 3 for OTA HD recording.

Thanks to you, Mr. Shag'nNasty, and other posters for GOOD input. Why
don't we meet here in S.C. at a local pizza place for a pitcher ?

Jim
San Clemente
You have to check with the local threads for the LA area to see how
much compression Cox does there. The large cable companies - Comcast,
Time Warner, Cox - all consists of many territories cobbled together
from different cable companies they took over / brought out over the
years. In one area, they may have newer equipment and more bandwidth so
they don't need to re-compress the HD locals. In other areas, they are
bandwidth limited until they shut down most of the analog channels.

Look for the LA threads under the sticky: "United States Thread index"
he
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...sprune=30&f=45.
avsforum.com is one of the best net resources for all things HD.

Many cable companies do not provide all the HD locals, which is
another reason to put up an antenna. In my case, I switched to Verizon
Fios from Adelphia/Comcast last fall and get all the Washington DC HD
locals via Verizon. When I moved in to my townhouse in 2005, Adelphia
did not provide the local PBS, WB and UPN stations on the HD tier, so I
put up an antenna (had fun experimenting with it too). They added the
DC PBS station a few months later, but that was it. I am also able to
get the Baltimore HD stations with the antenna which is a nice plus.
Comcast officially took over the local Adelphia system (Loudoun county,
VA) last August and still does not have the local CW or My Network
stations in their HD line-up. So if I was stuck with Comcast or either
of the 2 satellite providers, I would have to use an antenna to get CW
or My Network in HD. With the antenna, I get stations - both HD and SD -
& sub-channels that are likely to never show up on cable, DBS, or Fios.

One warning about the Series 3 Tivo and that is you should research
whether your Cox system is planning to use "switched Digital Video". Do
a search for it.

Whew, this was a long post. I hope this helps, not only yourself, but
other readers who may be thinking about putting up an antenna! Good luck.

Alan F

Jim wrote:
Thursday, May 10 2007, @2:52 PM (-0700 GMT)

Thank you Elmo... I've been following the earlier thread on the
HOA situation. I agree that you are right, but I do not want the
hassle.

One point that I'm not sure was brought up on THAT thread is the
question of what is the situation when you BOUGHT your home in an HOA
area? Our tract is new and all buyers were required to 'sign away'
their rights on roof top antennas when they bought here in the last
few years. It would seem to me that, despite "the government trumps
the HOA," that when you AGREE to the "covenants" of a tract, when
buying there, that you are screwed? I'm not sure, but suspect a roof
top antenna woulds be a MAJOR battle.

Jim

On Thu, 10 May 2007 17:18:57 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
wrote:

In article ,
Jim wrote:

I live in San Clemente, CA, roughly 60 miles southeast of the Los
Angeles area TV transmitters. I do NOT have a "line of sight" (LOS)
situation; I'm behind low rolling hills and roughly 100 feet down
BELOW true LOS. I have an LG HD LCD TV presently connected to Cox
Cable. I would like to DUMP Cox and go "OTA." Is it possible? Is it
worth spending roughly $200 to find out? I live in an HOA area and
can't "do" a rooftop mount.
Yes, you can. The feds--FCC--trumps your HOA.


Whats wrong with having a roof top antenna? back in the 70s and 80s
everyone had one.

On May 12, 8:56 am, "
wrote:
Jim wrote:
snip
In article ,
Jim wrote:

I live in San Clemente, CA, roughly 60 miles southeast of the
Los
Angeles area TV transmitters. I do NOT have a "line of
sight" (LOS)
situation; I'm behind low rolling hills and roughly 100 feet
down
BELOW true LOS. I have an LG HD LCD TV presently connected to
Cox
Cable. I would like to DUMP Cox and go "OTA." Is it possible?
Is it
worth spending roughly $200 to find out? I live in an HOA area
and
can't "do" a rooftop mount.
Yes, you can. The feds--FCC--trumps your HOA.

Whats wrong with having a roof top antenna? back in the 70s and 80s
everyone had one.

Read it again. Home Owner Association but more importantly, 60 miles
out and 100 feet low. For a private individual, a 100+ foot tower is a
_big_ deal, certainly not covered by the FCC even with a little
antenna at the top. No way I would ever convince the wife I needed a
100 foot tower. Depending how far away from the 100 foot obstruction
is, there might be enough diffraction but it would be erratic.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

I use one of these antennas (no preamp) at 35 miles with great results
but I do have LOS and raising if the extra 5 feet made a large
difference. My obstruction is only a house and trees across the
street.

GG

On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:45:18 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

On Thu, 10 May 2007 14:00:18 -0700, Jim wrote:

I live in San Clemente, CA, roughly 60 miles southeast of the Los
Angeles area TV transmitters. I do NOT have a "line of sight" (LOS)
situation; I'm behind low rolling hills and roughly 100 feet down
BELOW true LOS. I have an LG HD LCD TV presently connected to Cox
Cable. I would like to DUMP Cox and go "OTA." Is it possible? Is it
worth spending roughly $200 to find out?

People in San Diego get the LA digital stations. Should be a piece of cake
where you are. 5ft tripod mount with a 5 ft mast and Channel master CM5228
on the roof will get you both LA and San Diego stattions.

I live in an HOA area and can't "do" a rooftop mount.

Yes you can, but it would probably work OK in the attic if you don't want
to stand up for your rights.

Good point.

But the signal is very likely to be better with an outdoor antenna.

I just had some break up (pixelization) watching the preakness, so my
antenna is going outside and it WILL be visible from the street, thus
violating the HOA and deed restrictions. I am taking a stand and the
Federal government is going to support me against the HOA.

On Sun, 20 May 2007 03:57:17 -0500, DK wrote:

On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:45:18 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

On Thu, 10 May 2007 14:00:18 -0700, Jim wrote:

I live in San Clemente, CA, roughly 60 miles southeast of the Los
Angeles area TV transmitters. I do NOT have a "line of sight" (LOS)
situation; I'm behind low rolling hills and roughly 100 feet down
BELOW true LOS. I have an LG HD LCD TV presently connected to Cox
Cable. I would like to DUMP Cox and go "OTA." Is it possible? Is it
worth spending roughly $200 to find out?

People in San Diego get the LA digital stations. Should be a piece of cake
where you are. 5ft tripod mount with a 5 ft mast and Channel master CM5228
on the roof will get you both LA and San Diego stattions.

I live in an HOA area and can't "do" a rooftop mount.

Yes you can, but it would probably work OK in the attic if you don't want
to stand up for your rights.

Good point.

But the signal is very likely to be better with an outdoor antenna.

I just had some break up (pixelization) watching the preakness, so my
antenna is going outside and it WILL be visible from the street, thus
violating the HOA and deed restrictions. I am taking a stand and the
Federal government is going to support me against the HOA.



Friday, May 25 2007, @3:13 PM (-0700 GMT)

I am receiving about 15 stations, plus the sub-channels many use, with
an Antenna Direct DB8 Antenna & a Channel Master 7775 Pre-Amp sitting
on a ladder in my upstairs hallway. I need 3 more stations to get
everything worth watching in the Los Angeles area. Am going to try a
roof top mount, back from the street and not visible to those going by
on our "main" street, but easily seen by my next door neighbor and a
few around him. It's a Channel Master "Eave" mount and I'll place it
so the bottom of the antenna is just about a foot or so above the roof
line.

I'll see what happens "HOA-wise" and "neighbor-wise." The extra 15 to
20 feet of height, plus being in open air instead of behind a wall
indoors just may add 6 or 7 dB of signal and bring in the 3 remaining
stations.

The web site www.tvfool.com was a BIG help in deciding to try this,
but their DATA, in terms of signal strength, i.e., strongest station
to weakest station, is WAY off. When I finalize the installation, I'll
post a comparison between what they SAY the signal levels are, and
what I actually get, in terms of weakest to strongest stations.

My set is an LG. On it, OTA stations use a dash in the call sign. So
Channel 4, NBC here, is OTA Channel 4-1. They have 2 sub-channels on
all the time: 4-2 and 4-4. The 4-2 channel is 24 hour weather
reports, and 4-4 is live "raw" news feeds. Very interesting. I've
never seen 4-3 so I don't know what it's used for?

Jim
San Clemente, CA