Actual Hard Disk Capacity ?

Wes Newell wrote:
All computer op codes consist of hex,

Not true in all cases. Computers that had op codes of three octal digits and
addresses six octal digits were quite prominent in the early days of the ARPAnet.
http://inwap.com/pdp10/opcodes.html http://www.inwa.com/pdp10/

as does the numbering system normally,

Hexadecimal notation is one of many numbering systems, "normally" is not
really appropriate.

though some CPU's do have a decimal mode of operation,

Very few. The CPU in the IBM 360 did, and 6502 used "Atari 8 bit computers in 1981"
did, but not many others.

older ones may use octal (base 8).

Digital Equipment Corporation's PDP-5/PDP-8/PDP-12 (12-bit systems),
PDP-6/PDP-10 (36-bit systems), PDP-11 (16 bit - not a multiple of 3),
and some 18-bit systems (which I haven't used myself).
Also Xerox XDS-930 and 940 (24-bits) that Tymshare used.

-Joe

On Fri, 04 May 2007 13:31:02 -0400, Nik Simpson wrote:

So, are you denying that you said:

"All computer op codes consist of hex, as does the numbering system
normally, though some CPU's do have a decimal mode of operation, and
some older ones may use octal (base 8)."

I'm not denying it a bit. Op codes are hex numbers in every CPU manual
I have here. And when I've written programs in assembly, it produces hex
op codes. When i've gone in and manually patched a machine language
program, it's done in hex. When I assembled an OS for the 6502 it was done
in hex. If you disassemble it, it will display in hex. yes, binary is the
lowest form, but it is totally usless in that form. Try writing a computer
program usung nothing but 1's and 0's.

Or are you accepting that this one of the most boneheaded statements
you've made in a long and illustrious career?

I am getting on in age, but I don't have a clue what you are talking
about. And what's all this got to do with HDD capacity anyway?

For some reason you seem
hung up on HEX which as people have pointed out to you has absolutely
nothing to do with the way computers store information except as a
shorthand for representing binary numbers.

Yes, I understand that. But you don't use binary (or rarely) when
programming, or counting memory. You use nibbles, bytes, words, etc. You
add 1000 bytes of memory, you add ad 1K (1024). and you get there with
bytes, not binary. Binary is nothing more than the state of a switch, on
or off. When you go beyond a switch (bit) bianry is useless in terms of
representation. That's why there are bits, nibbles, bytes, words,
long-words, etc. to represent something meaningful.

At no point anywhere inside a computer is HEX used, all registers are
binary, all memory address are binary, all disk block addresses are
binary, all data is binary. You might just well say that computers
represent data in ASCII since all possible binary numbers that can be
represented in a byte have an equivalent ASCII character associated with
them.

And still this has nothing to do with anything about the subject. Now I
know how many rpograms I've written in hex. I've also loaded many
hex numbers into those registers you're talking about a and maniplulated
them with shifts. the op code to load those registers is in hex. the
memory location to fetch the data is in hex. All you are doing is trying
to stir a pot based on something that shouldn't even be in the pot,

This is just like the old trick question of what's the highest number a
computer can store. If you answered 1 you were correct, when in fact it
can't store any numbers, just states of electricity. All true but utter BS
and worthless IMO.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

MegaZone wrote:
Basically ALL hard drives are sold using base10.
80GB == 80,000,000,000 Bytes. But nearly all operating
systems - including TiVo - use base2. 80,000,000,000 Bytes = 74.5GB.

After following a link on Slashdot to the LDB (Long Data Block) standard,
I found something interesting regarding IDEMA standardized disk sizes.

A 50 GB disk is defined has having a logical block count of 97696368,
which is 50,020,540,416 bytes = 48,848,184K = 47,703.3M = 46.59G.
(That number, 97696368, is 2*2*2*2 * 3*3*3*3 * 7 * 11*11 * 89.)

Each additional 10 GB has an incremental LBA count of 19535040,
which is 10,001,940,480 bytes = 9,767,520K = 9,538.6M = 9.32G.
For logical cylinders consisting of 255 head and 63 sectors, that
would be 1,216 cylinders (64*19).

http://www.idema.org/_smartsite/modu...a_file_id=1066

The LBA count shall be calculated using the following formula:
LBA count = (97696368) + (1953504 * (Desired Capacity in Gbytes – 50.0))

That means an 80 billion byte disk holds 74.5 gigabytes (using binary "giga").

-Joe



"Size" LBA bytes kilobytes megabytes giga tera
50 97696368 50,020,540,416 48,848,184 47,703.3 46.585
60 117231408 60,022,480,896 58,615,704 57,241.9 55.900
80 156301488 80,026,361,856 78,150,744 76,319.0 74.530
100 195371568 100,030,242,816 97,685,784 95,396.2 93.160
120 234441648 120,034,123,776 117,220,824 114,473.4 111.790
160 312581808 160,041,885,696 156,290,904 152,627.8 149.051
180 351651888 180,045,766,656 175,825,944 171,705.0 167.681
200 390721968 200,049,647,616 195,360,984 190,782.2 186.311
250 488397168 250,059,350,016 244,198,584 238,475.1 232.886
300 586072368 300,069,052,416 293,036,184 286,168.1 279.461
400 781422768 400,088,457,216 390,711,384 381,554.0 372.611
500 976773168 500,107,862,016 488,386,584 476,940.0 465.762 0.455
750 1465149168 750,156,374,016 732,574,584 715,404.8 698.638 0.682
1000 1953525168 1,000,204,886,016 976,762,584 953,869.7 931.513 0.910

On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:38:56 +0000, MegaZone wrote:

shaped the electrons to say:
You figure it out. What I stated is correct. man df.

-H, --si
likewise, but use powers of 1000 not 1024

Wes, stop, you're making it worse.

For who? You.

From 'man df' on FreeBSD:

-H "Human-readable" output. Use unit suffixes: Byte, Kilobyte,
Megabyte, Gigabyte, Terabyte and Petabyte in order to reduce the
number of digits to four or fewer using base 10 for sizes.

Well, that's basically the same thing.

-h "Human-readable" output. Use unit suffixes: Byte,
Kilobyte,
Megabyte, Gigabyte, Terabyte and Petabyte in order to
reduce the number of digits to four or fewer using base 2
for sizes.

Hmm, base10 and base2.

This is 'man df' on a Linux box:
-h, --human-readable
print sizes in human readable format (e.g., 1K 234M 2G)

-H, --si
likewise, but use powers of 1000 not 1024

And that's the exact same thing I posted.

Maybe it wasn't clear because it doesn't specify the base - but it is
the same thing, base10 and base2 - no base16.

Actually, it's base 1024=1k. That's what even you copied means.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:28:46 +0000, MegaZone wrote:

shaped the electrons to say:
Well, no **** Sherlock. Although with registers 64bit wide or more no one
hardly refers to binary any longer.

I don't know what circles you move in Wes, but people I know in IT and
development talk about binary all the time. Everything you do with
computers boils down to binary. Hex, Octal, dotted-quad IPs, etc, are
just shorthand.

IT. One of them. I've never met an IT person that knew jack ****. I've
had to show more than one how to wire a damn ethernet jack. Now go try and
write a program in binary. If they talk about binary all the time it just
goes to show how damn dumb they are that they can't even remember 2
states, on and off, low and high, or 0 and 1 if you prefer that. Worst
nightmare was having to interface with some dumbass IT person. just like a
lot of people here, Can talk all kinds of trash but can't really do ****.

It certainly has nothing to do with HDD space.

Yes it does, Wes. Drive manufacturers represent drive size using
base10 (decimal) math. 1KB == 1,000 Bytes.

No ****. That's what I wrote originally, idiot.

Operating systems use base2 (binary) math - NOT base16 (hexadecimal)
or base8 (octal). 1KB = 2^10 Bytes = 1,024 Bytes.

-MZ
Computers don't use math. They uses switch states, high or low, on or off,
or more commoly refered to as 0's and 1's. I wonder how I ever designed
all the computer gear I sold world wide without knowing this. And it's a
miracle I ever got any software written. The last time I had to use binary
to program was on telcom gear back in the 70's on the first ever
computerized base exchange installed in Texas. ITT Womack. Used 8008's
(IIRC) in distributed processing. Loaded it with teletype and paper tape.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

On Fri, 04 May 2007 20:36:05 -0700, Joe Smith wrote:

Wes Newell wrote:

Actually I need to correct myself. I typed the above pretty fast. It uses
a power of 1024 by default instead of 1000. 1024 is based on hex, while
1000 is based on decimal.

No, it is not. 1024 is based on powers of two that are not multiples
of four; therefore is is not based on hex.

Just leave the word "hex" out of the description of 1024.
-Joe

I sure wish I had. 1024 is used because it's the same as memory is
represented by 1K byte.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

Wes Newell wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2007 13:31:02 -0400, Nik Simpson wrote:

So, are you denying that you said:

"All computer op codes consist of hex, as does the numbering system
normally, though some CPU's do have a decimal mode of operation, and
some older ones may use octal (base 8)."

I'm not denying it a bit. Op codes are hex numbers in every CPU manual
I have here. And when I've written programs in assembly, it produces hex
op codes. When i've gone in and manually patched a machine language
program, it's done in hex. When I assembled an OS for the 6502 it was done
in hex. If you disassemble it, it will display in hex. yes, binary is the
lowest form, but it is totally usless in that form. Try writing a computer
program usung nothing but 1's and 0's.

Yes, but the point is that is representation done purely to make it
easier for you to understand, it has no impact on how the numbers are
stored anywhere inside the computer which is a purely binary device.

Or are you accepting that this one of the most boneheaded statements
you've made in a long and illustrious career?

I am getting on in age, but I don't have a clue what you are talking
about. And what's all this got to do with HDD capacity anyway?

For some reason you seem
hung up on HEX which as people have pointed out to you has absolutely
nothing to do with the way computers store information except as a
shorthand for representing binary numbers.

Yes, I understand that. But you don't use binary (or rarely) when
programming, or counting memory. You use nibbles, bytes, words, etc. You
add 1000 bytes of memory, you add ad 1K (1024). and you get there with
bytes, not binary. Binary is nothing more than the state of a switch, on
or off. When you go beyond a switch (bit) bianry is useless in terms of
representation. That's why there are bits, nibbles, bytes, words,
long-words, etc. to represent something meaningful.

Again something meaningful to *YOU*, the computer doesn't need and
doesn't understand it, bytes, nibbles, words etc are simply ways for us
to deal with the internals of the computer without having to deal with
binary which is very long winded.

At no point anywhere inside a computer is HEX used, all registers are
binary, all memory address are binary, all disk block addresses are
binary, all data is binary. You might just well say that computers
represent data in ASCII since all possible binary numbers that can be
represented in a byte have an equivalent ASCII character associated with
them.

And still this has nothing to do with anything about the subject. Now I
know how many rpograms I've written in hex. I've also loaded many
hex numbers into those registers you're talking about a and maniplulated
them with shifts. the op code to load those registers is in hex. the
memory location to fetch the data is in hex. All you are doing is trying
to stir a pot based on something that shouldn't even be in the pot,

Again, you may enter them in hex, but something (i.e. the assembler or
whatever tool you use to poke memory addresses) is converting them
binary. As to being relevant, you were the one that made the claim that
computers use HEX as a numbering sytem. They don't use HEX, we use HEX
as a shorthand to make our lives easier.

If you're original statement had stuck with binary instead of making
incorrect claims we wouldn't be having the conversation. If you'd simply
had the grace to admit you made a mistake, we wouldn't be having this
conversation. But instead you continue to make the claims and tell
everybody else they don't what their talking about when it's patently
clear to everybody that you are the one with the comprehension problem.


--
Nik Simpson

On May 5, 2:37 am, Wes Newell wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:28:46 +0000, MegaZone wrote:
shaped the electrons to say:
Well, no **** Sherlock. Although with registers 64bit wide or more no one
hardly refers to binary any longer.

I don't know what circles you move in Wes,

IT. One of them. I've never met an IT person that knew jack ****. I've
had to show more than one how to wire a damn ethernet jack.


This is why I like this troll even more then my tivo. He really
believes what he says, he's a case study in delusional personality.
He really thinks he's hot ****. Does anyone here who works in IT
think he could get a job in IT, even as first level support, whose job
is to tell the caller to reboot the machine?

Wow, Wes, that's a weak tantrum even for you.

You ****ed up, period. I'm sorry you're not man enough to own up to
that. You can't even face it, instead you blow a lot of smoke about
how stupid other people supposedly are, while completely avoiding the
error you made.

It isn't even worth pointing out the compounding mistakes you just
made.

-MZ
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-852-2171
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

shaped the electrons to say:
He really thinks he's hot ****. Does anyone here who works in IT
think he could get a job in IT, even as first level support, whose job
is to tell the caller to reboot the machine?

I'm a Director of IT Operations, I sure as hell wouldn't hire someone
with that poor a grasp on technology. More than that, someone who
can't admit when they're wrong is a liability.

Of course, since I'm in IT now I don't know **** - which is odd since
I've also been a full time developer and worked on standards.
Especially odd since I still chip in on code from time to time.

Wes makes a lot of claims about what he did in the past, but he makes
it hard to believe when he makes fundamental mistakes like the
'base16' gaff. And then compounds it by blowing a lot of smoke to try
to distract people from his error. I mean, what the hell does he
think registers and transistor gates are for? At the basic level
everything on a computer is binary math - and yes, binary MATH.
That's what Computer Science calls it. When you operate on bits, it
all comes down to math - saying 'it isn't math' is, perhaps, even more
of a gaff than the base16.

He also conflates human readable (for different amounts of 'readable')
languages like Assembly, C, etc, with the underlying operations.
Sure, you might write Assembly with Hex representations - but that
means nothing more than that Assembler was written to parse Hex. I've
seen things coded in Octal, etc. Sure, you're not generally, as a
human, going to write things out in binary. But so what? It doesn't
change the underlying math or number system, which was the original
issue!

It doesn't matter if you use hex, octal, decimal, or base13 if you
want - as long as the language you're writing handles it, it is fine.
It is all mapped to binary in the end.

Wes just can't admit that he make a mistake. It doesn't matter what
he worked on in the past, nothing will alter the fact that he made a
mistake when he said 'base16'.

-MZ
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-852-2171
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris