Transmitter power

Is there a way to find out the power of a given HDTV station?

I can get 3 of the 5 HDTV Duluth,MN stations from 35 miles out in some
trees with a Winegard HD9095 and HD269 pre-amp. I only have about 50
ft of Coax, and no splitter, so I assume a more powerful pre-amp would
not work?

The missing channels a

KDLH Analog 3, digital 33
WDIO Analog 10, digital 43

The HD269 makes the difference between having a steady signal, and
having nothing on the other channels.

WDIO does come in for short periods.

Are these channels broadcasting at too low a power level? 2 of the
other 3 are near 1,000,000 watts, but I don't know about KBJR's power
level.

It would be easier to look the stations up and your situation if you
provided your zip code. But to get to your questions, you can look a
station up at the FCC database:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html. Wikipedia provides a handy
summary for almost all TV stations in the US - just enter the call sign.
KBJR has several entries for it's digital signal at
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KBJR-TV, so it could still be
operating at Special Temporary Authority power of 433 kW or full power
of 1000 kW (which is the maximum power allowed for digital UHF). In
either case, KBJR-DT is operating at a respectable power level. WDIO-DT
is listed to be at 54 kW which is not a strong power for digital UHF.

Plugging in a random zip code near Duluth, MN, the range and direction
numbers are only useful in that it shows the 5 TV stations are
broadcasting from the same area. The five digital stations a
uhf WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS DULUTH MN 60° 6.3 38
uhf KQDS-DT 21.1 FOX DULUTH MN 60° 6.6 17
uhf KDLH-DT 3.1 CBS DULUTH MN 63° 6.2 33
uhf KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC SUPERIOR WI 63° 6.6 19
uhf WDIO-DT 10.1 ABC DULUTH MN 62° 6.2 43

These are all UHF, so you are ok with a UHF antenna for now. However,
looking at the FCC information, after the analog shutdown in 2009,
WDIO-DT ABC 10 will be switching it's digital channel to VHF 10, WDSE-DT
PBS 8 will be switching to VHF 8. KDLH-DT 3 and KBJR-DT 6 will stay at
UHF. So in 2009, you will need an antenna which can receive upper VHF
and UHF.

If you are having that poor a performance with the Winegard HD9095 at
30 miles, you must have terrain & tree issues and need a long range
antenna with more gain. You already have a good pre-amp. You could try
the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay bowtie as that has decent performance for
upper VHF and would offer a good shot at working in 2009. or you could
go for a AntennasDirect 91XG UHF only antenna and add a Winegard YA-1713
or YA-6713 upper VHF antenna. The combination of the 91XG and YA-1713 or
YA-6713 is popular for long range reception of digital UHF and upper VHF
stations.

See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html and the
comparing commercial antennas link for info.

Alan F


wrote:
Is there a way to find out the power of a given HDTV station?

I can get 3 of the 5 HDTV Duluth,MN stations from 35 miles out in some
trees with a Winegard HD9095 and HD269 pre-amp. I only have about 50
ft of Coax, and no splitter, so I assume a more powerful pre-amp would
not work?

The missing channels a

KDLH Analog 3, digital 33
WDIO Analog 10, digital 43

The HD269 makes the difference between having a steady signal, and
having nothing on the other channels.

WDIO does come in for short periods.

Are these channels broadcasting at too low a power level? 2 of the
other 3 are near 1,000,000 watts, but I don't know about KBJR's power
level.

On Apr 10, 10:32 pm, Alan F wrote:
It would be easier to look the stations up and your situation if you
provided your zip code. But to get to your questions, you can look a
station up at the FCC database:http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html. Wikipedia provides a handy
summary for almost all TV stations in the US - just enter the call sign.
KBJR has several entries for it's digital signal athttp://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KBJR-TV, so it could still be
operating at Special Temporary Authority power of 433 kW or full power
of 1000 kW (which is the maximum power allowed for digital UHF). In
either case, KBJR-DT is operating at a respectable power level. WDIO-DT
is listed to be at 54 kW which is not a strong power for digital UHF.

Plugging in a random zip code near Duluth, MN, the range and direction
numbers are only useful in that it shows the 5 TV stations are
broadcasting from the same area. The five digital stations a
uhf WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS DULUTH MN 60° 6.3 38
uhf KQDS-DT 21.1 FOX DULUTH MN 60° 6.6 17
uhfKDLH-DT 3.1 CBS DULUTH MN 63° 6.2 33
uhf KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC SUPERIOR WI 63° 6.6 19
uhf WDIO-DT 10.1 ABC DULUTH MN 62° 6.2 43

Why does antenna web show 3.1 stronger than 21.1? According to the
FCC web site and Wikipedia, 21.1 (17) is 1000KW. 3.1 is either is
either 505KW or 381KW, and is at 33, a higher frequency. The 600m
number is presumably the height above sea level, which is the same for
both?

At our location south of the center of 55602, antenna web gives only
the following stations:

* blue - uhf WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS DULUTH MN 197° 34.3 38
* blue - uhf KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC SUPERIOR WI 196° 34.4 19
* violet - uhf KDLH-DT 3.1 CBS DULUTH MN 196° 34.7 33

10.1 disappears in our direction in the Antenna Web list at 10 miles
out. 21.1 disappears about 30 miles out. So their signal list from
strongest to weakest apparenly is:
8.1, 6.1, 3.1, 21.1, 10.1

My experience is
6.1, 8.1, 21.1, 10.1, 3.1

And 21.1 is very solid, and I have never gotten 3.1.

Within 200 feet in the direction the antenna is pointed, there are
evergreen trees, which were holding snow. I haven't verified the
compass location, but there is another direction that is at least 30
degrees from where the antenna is pointed that also has reception of
the same channels. The compass angle that the antenna will work is
very small, maybe only a few degrees in both of the positions. The
roof is steel, and the antenna hangs over the roof. 6.1 is the least
fussy on antenna compass angle.

wrote:
On Apr 10, 10:32 pm, Alan F wrote:
It would be easier to look the stations up and your situation if you
provided your zip code. But to get to your questions, you can look a
station up at the FCC database:http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html. Wikipedia provides a handy
summary for almost all TV stations in the US - just enter the call sign.
KBJR has several entries for it's digital signal athttp://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KBJR-TV, so it could still be
operating at Special Temporary Authority power of 433 kW or full power
of 1000 kW (which is the maximum power allowed for digital UHF). In
either case, KBJR-DT is operating at a respectable power level. WDIO-DT
is listed to be at 54 kW which is not a strong power for digital UHF.

Plugging in a random zip code near Duluth, MN, the range and direction
numbers are only useful in that it shows the 5 TV stations are
broadcasting from the same area. The five digital stations a
uhf WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS DULUTH MN 60° 6.3 38
uhf KQDS-DT 21.1 FOX DULUTH MN 60° 6.6 17
uhfKDLH-DT 3.1 CBS DULUTH MN 63° 6.2 33
uhf KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC SUPERIOR WI 63° 6.6 19
uhf WDIO-DT 10.1 ABC DULUTH MN 62° 6.2 43

Why does antenna web show 3.1 stronger than 21.1? According to the
FCC web site and Wikipedia, 21.1 (17) is 1000KW. 3.1 is either is
either 505KW or 381KW, and is at 33, a higher frequency. The 600m
number is presumably the height above sea level, which is the same for
both?

At our location south of the center of 55602, antenna web gives only
the following stations:

* blue - uhf WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS DULUTH MN 197° 34.3 38
* blue - uhf KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC SUPERIOR WI 196° 34.4 19
* violet - uhf KDLH-DT 3.1 CBS DULUTH MN 196° 34.7 33

10.1 disappears in our direction in the Antenna Web list at 10 miles
out. 21.1 disappears about 30 miles out. So their signal list from
strongest to weakest apparenly is:
8.1, 6.1, 3.1, 21.1, 10.1

My experience is
6.1, 8.1, 21.1, 10.1, 3.1

And 21.1 is very solid, and I have never gotten 3.1.

Within 200 feet in the direction the antenna is pointed, there are
evergreen trees, which were holding snow. I haven't verified the
compass location, but there is another direction that is at least 30
degrees from where the antenna is pointed that also has reception of
the same channels. The compass angle that the antenna will work is
very small, maybe only a few degrees in both of the positions. The
roof is steel, and the antenna hangs over the roof. 6.1 is the least
fussy on antenna compass angle.

Both KQDS-DT 21 Fox and KDLH-DT 3 CBS have multiple entries for their
digital power level in the FCC database. Many smaller market stations
have gone to their full authorized power since the first deadline of
July 1, 2006 for full power (many stations have waivers from the FCC
allowing them to not meet this deadline), but the lower power STA entry
is still used by antennaweb.org in some cases. I can't speak for the
details of the math modeling and terrain data used by antennaweb.

The summary FCC database lists for KQDS and KDLH are at:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&list=2&size=9
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&list=2&size=9

DS and DT are the digital transmitter, TV = NTSC analog transmitter.

KDLH-DT CBS 3 (DT=33) may still be operating at 66.1 kW, not at it's
authorized construction permit power of 505 kW. You should contact the
station and ask the station engineer what power the station is operating
at. If they are not at 505 kW, when will they install new hardware to
get there?

Given the signal loss caused by trees and the terrain, my original
reply about getting a better antenna with more gain still applies such
as an AntennasDirect 91XG or CM 4228 (although the CM 4228 can present a
wind and snow load issue).

There is a local thread for Duluth in the local HD reception thread at
avsforum, but it is not very active. Still you could post a question
there and see if anyone replies:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=339069.

BTW, it is far easier to figure out which stations you are discussing
when use the call letters and the network. 3.1 is not meaningful to
anyone who does not live in the immediate area.

Good luck,
Alan F

On Apr 13, 10:06 am, Alan F wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 10, 10:32 pm, Alan F wrote:
It would be easier to look the stations up and your situation if you
provided your zip code. But to get to your questions, you can look a
station up at the FCC database:http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html. Wikipedia provides a handy
summary for almost all TV stations in the US - just enter the call sign.
KBJR has several entries for it's digital signal athttp://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KBJR-TV, so it could still be
operating at Special Temporary Authority power of 433 kW or full power
of 1000 kW (which is the maximum power allowed for digital UHF). In
either case, KBJR-DT is operating at a respectable power level. WDIO-DT
is listed to be at 54 kW which is not a strong power for digital UHF.

Plugging in a random zip code near Duluth, MN, the range and direction
numbers are only useful in that it shows the 5 TV stations are
broadcasting from the same area. The five digital stations a
uhf WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS DULUTH MN 60° 6.3 38
uhf KQDS-DT 21.1 FOX DULUTH MN 60° 6.6 17
uhfKDLH-DT 3.1 CBS DULUTH MN 63° 6.2 33
uhf KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC SUPERIOR WI 63° 6.6 19
uhf WDIO-DT 10.1 ABC DULUTH MN 62° 6.2 43

Why does antenna web show 3.1 stronger than 21.1? According to the
FCC web site and Wikipedia, 21.1 (17) is 1000KW. 3.1 is either is
either 505KW or 381KW, and is at 33, a higher frequency. The 600m
number is presumably the height above sea level, which is the same for
both?

At our location south of the center of 55602, antenna web gives only
the following stations:

* blue - uhf WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS DULUTH MN 197° 34.3 38
* blue - uhf KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC SUPERIOR WI 196° 34.4 19
* violet - uhf KDLH-DT 3.1 CBS DULUTH MN 196° 34.7 33

10.1 disappears in our direction in the Antenna Web list at 10 miles
out. 21.1 disappears about 30 miles out. So their signal list from
strongest to weakest apparenly is:
8.1, 6.1, 3.1, 21.1, 10.1

My experience is
6.1, 8.1, 21.1, 10.1, 3.1

And 21.1 is very solid, and I have never gotten 3.1.

Within 200 feet in the direction the antenna is pointed, there are
evergreen trees, which were holding snow. I haven't verified the
compass location, but there is another direction that is at least 30
degrees from where the antenna is pointed that also has reception of
the same channels. The compass angle that the antenna will work is
very small, maybe only a few degrees in both of the positions. The
roof is steel, and the antenna hangs over the roof. 6.1 is the least
fussy on antenna compass angle.

Both KQDS-DT 21 Fox andKDLH-DT 3 CBS have multiple entries for their
digital power level in the FCC database. Many smaller market stations
have gone to their full authorized power since the first deadline of
July 1, 2006 for full power (many stations have waivers from the FCC
allowing them to not meet this deadline), but the lower power STA entry
is still used by antennaweb.org in some cases. I can't speak for the
details of the math modeling and terrain data used by antennaweb.

The summary FCC database lists for KQDS andKDLHare at:http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&list=2&size=9

DS and DT are the digital transmitter, TV = NTSC analog transmitter.

KDLH-DT CBS 3 (DT=33) may still be operating at 66.1 kW, not at it's
authorized construction permit power of 505 kW. You should contact the
station and ask the station engineer what power the station is operating
at. If they are not at 505 kW, when will they install new hardware to
get there?

Given the signal loss caused by trees and the terrain, my original
reply about getting a better antenna with more gain still applies such
as an AntennasDirect 91XG or CM 4228 (although the CM 4228 can present a
wind and snow load issue).

There is a local thread for Duluth in the local HD reception thread at
avsforum, but it is not very active. Still you could post a question
there and see if anyone replies:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread..php?t=339069.

BTW, it is far easier to figure out which stations you are discussing
when use the call letters and the network. 3.1 is not meaningful to
anyone who does not live in the immediate area.

Good luck,
Alan F
I got a response from a KBJR person that WDIO and KDLH are both low
power. He says that KDLH (owned by the same company as KBJR) will be
upgraded as soon as weather allows. I may just wait for the upgrade.
So besides asking there isn't a good way to get at their power levels,
it appears.

I did get a better UHF signal at the other side of our cabin roof (35
feet away) but still no KDLH, just better WDIO.

If I put the antenna on the same mast as my cell phone antenna, I get
better WDIO reception until someone wants to use the phone. Looking
at the surroundings, it doesn't make sense to me, because there is a
spruce tree dead on where the antenna points only 20 feet away. The
other side of the cabin has no trees for 200 feet in the direction
where the antenna points, and WDIO is very touchy, so maybe trees help!