TiVo hacked for free TV listings?

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 10:45:48 -0500, "Dr. Personality"
wrote:

In article , Bill
Kearney [email protected] wrote:

The truth is almost exactly the OPPOSITE of that. My thinking is more
dependant of the actual world we live in. Realize that "courts" and
"lawyers" are part of human society, which is an extremely small part
of the real world.

Truth and the law often have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Which doesn't answer the question, do you have legal experience or a JD?

So you claim it IS stealing. Stealing is an act in which the actor now
(after the act) has something s/he didn't have before, and at the same
time another (unwilling party) no longer has that thing s/he had
before the act. What thing is involved here?

Quibble all you want, the device and it's software is part and parcel to
Tivo's revenue stream. Hack the box so it deprives them of that and you're
inviting legal expenses.

Of course the would. They're government agencies, controlled by the
corporations that like the additional money they can get out of
people. I'm not particularly concerned with that at this time. I'm
concerned with what the act ACTUALLY is.

Oh please, take off your tin foil hat and get real.

Because some people insist on pretending otherwise, I'll say it again:
IN NO WAY AM I CONSIDERING THE ACT (hacking the TiVo to get a free
guide) AS "RIGHT". IT IS WRONG.

No, you're just trying to weasel out of justifying theft of service and some
delusions about the legal system.


I presume he owns the box.

If he hacks TiVo's software to avoid having to pay them anything for
their service, that's theft.

If he rips out their software by the roots and uses his own, it's not.


I did actually say I supported THAT, unlike all the other poster's
delusions regarding the other. What I did say was that CALLING it
"theft" makes little sense. It's more like "contract breach" (still
wrong, of course).

Gillette sells me a razor at a loss so that I'll buy their blades. If
I buy compatible blades from someone else, that's not stealing, either.

This is pretty much why, legally, leasing is a better deal for TiVo
than selling. Leasing maintains TiVo's contol over the device.

Yes.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

I have exceeded my minimum daily requirement of BS, and
don't need any more. Bye.

Well, you've certainly got an excess of BS in your posts so don't go blaming
the rest of us for your nonsense.

On Feb 2, 5:20 pm, "bob" wrote:
On Feb 2, 2:49 pm, SINNER wrote:

* bob wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

I just ordered a TiVo which should arrive in a few days. I looked
over the alternatives (mainly PC or Mac + tuner + freeware) but for
simplicity and quick starting went with TiVo.

The TiVo box is attractive for its relatively low power consumption
and profile compared to a PC. However with TiVo one must pay the
subscription, so I was wondering...is it possible to hack TiVo to use
a free TV listing?
Because it is STEALING

Is it? If I've bought TiVo's hardware, then simply replace their
software with my own, what am I stealing?
Voiding their warranty, no doubt. But copyright stealing involves
using someone's copyrighted material against their wishes.

Myself, I bought 3 years of prepaid service to get the cheapest rate.
By the time that expires I'll have switched from SD to HD and want to
upgrade my entire TV/"media" system. So for me, my original question
was intellectual. Does anything really prevent replacing their
software with alternate software which allows use of the free TV
listings?

BTW, how are the free listings supported?


The "Stealing" would be similar to you "buying" a cell phone from
Verizon and hacking it to use a different-free-service.

You seriously don't think the phone you got from Verizon for $10,
really only has a Retail price of $10 do you? No. Even a generic
cordless landline phone costs more than that. They make up the loss
by signing you to a contract for services rendered (your 2 year phone
service agreement).

Same with TiVo. A TiVo retails for more than the "free" or $50 price
tag you paid. They make that up with your contract for service.

In article . com,
Nfuego wrote:

On Feb 2, 5:20 pm, "bob" wrote:
On Feb 2, 2:49 pm, SINNER wrote:

* bob wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

I just ordered a TiVo which should arrive in a few days. I looked
over the alternatives (mainly PC or Mac + tuner + freeware) but for
simplicity and quick starting went with TiVo.

The TiVo box is attractive for its relatively low power consumption
and profile compared to a PC. However with TiVo one must pay the
subscription, so I was wondering...is it possible to hack TiVo to use
a free TV listing?
Because it is STEALING

Is it? If I've bought TiVo's hardware, then simply replace their
software with my own, what am I stealing?
Voiding their warranty, no doubt. But copyright stealing involves
using someone's copyrighted material against their wishes.

Myself, I bought 3 years of prepaid service to get the cheapest rate.
By the time that expires I'll have switched from SD to HD and want to
upgrade my entire TV/"media" system. So for me, my original question
was intellectual. Does anything really prevent replacing their
software with alternate software which allows use of the free TV
listings?

BTW, how are the free listings supported?


The "Stealing" would be similar to you "buying" a cell phone from
Verizon and hacking it to use a different-free-service.

You seriously don't think the phone you got from Verizon for $10,
really only has a Retail price of $10 do you? No. Even a generic
cordless landline phone costs more than that. They make up the loss
by signing you to a contract for services rendered (your 2 year phone
service agreement).

Same with TiVo. A TiVo retails for more than the "free" or $50 price
tag you paid. They make that up with your contract for service.


If he owns the TiVo, it's not stealing. If he owns the cell phone,
it's not stealing. It is not stealing if a customer merely fails to
follow the vendor's business model.

To steal something, somebody has to break a law. Please tell us which
law is broken if I buy a Gillette razor but use off-brand blades in it.

"Dr. Personality" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Nfuego wrote:

On Feb 2, 5:20 pm, "bob" wrote:
On Feb 2, 2:49 pm, SINNER wrote:

* bob wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

I just ordered a TiVo which should arrive in a few days. I looked
over the alternatives (mainly PC or Mac + tuner + freeware) but for
simplicity and quick starting went with TiVo.

The TiVo box is attractive for its relatively low power consumption
and profile compared to a PC. However with TiVo one must pay the
subscription, so I was wondering...is it possible to hack TiVo to
use
a free TV listing?
Because it is STEALING

Is it? If I've bought TiVo's hardware, then simply replace their
software with my own, what am I stealing?
Voiding their warranty, no doubt. But copyright stealing involves
using someone's copyrighted material against their wishes.

Myself, I bought 3 years of prepaid service to get the cheapest rate.
By the time that expires I'll have switched from SD to HD and want to
upgrade my entire TV/"media" system. So for me, my original question
was intellectual. Does anything really prevent replacing their
software with alternate software which allows use of the free TV
listings?

BTW, how are the free listings supported?


The "Stealing" would be similar to you "buying" a cell phone from
Verizon and hacking it to use a different-free-service.

You seriously don't think the phone you got from Verizon for $10,
really only has a Retail price of $10 do you? No. Even a generic
cordless landline phone costs more than that. They make up the loss
by signing you to a contract for services rendered (your 2 year phone
service agreement).

Same with TiVo. A TiVo retails for more than the "free" or $50 price
tag you paid. They make that up with your contract for service.

If he owns the TiVo, it's not stealing. If he owns the cell phone,
it's not stealing. It is not stealing if a customer merely fails to
follow the vendor's business model.

Depends on if one hacks the software to obtain free use of it, or replaces
the software with something else. Buying the hardware does not mean you own
the software. You are only granted a license to use the software under the
terms set forth by the owner of the software. As long as one wants to use
TiVo software, they are legally bound to the terms TiVo sets forth.

To steal something, somebody has to break a law. Please tell us which
law is broken if I buy a Gillette razor but use off-brand blades in it.

None that I'm aware of, but a razor is hardware only. No licensed software
involved. Now if you use software in a manner that is unauthorized by the
copyright holder, than that /might/ be a copyright violation and that is
illegal. Not sure if it would be convictable on a small scale though.

In article , Seth
wrote:

"Dr. Personality" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Nfuego wrote:

If he owns the TiVo, it's not stealing. If he owns the cell phone,
it's not stealing. It is not stealing if a customer merely fails to
follow the vendor's business model.

Depends on if one hacks the software to obtain free use of it, or replaces
the software with something else. Buying the hardware does not mean you own
the software. You are only granted a license to use the software under the
terms set forth by the owner of the software. As long as one wants to use
TiVo software, they are legally bound to the terms TiVo sets forth.

No dispute there. Hacking someone's software to avoid paying for its
use is theft on the face of it. That wasn't what we were talking
about, though. We were talking about using someone else's software
entirely.

To steal something, somebody has to break a law. Please tell us which
law is broken if I buy a Gillette razor but use off-brand blades in it.

None that I'm aware of, but a razor is hardware only. No licensed software
involved. Now if you use software in a manner that is unauthorized by the
copyright holder, than that /might/ be a copyright violation and that is
illegal. Not sure if it would be convictable on a small scale though.

What Nfuego was saying was that using third-party software in a device
you own is stealing, because TiVo expects to make up its losses on
hardware by selling you its service. My point is that it is not
stealing, any more than using off-brand blades in a name-brand razor is
stealing.

On 2007-02-23, Dr. Personality wrote:
In article . com,
Nfuego wrote:

On Feb 2, 5:20 pm, "bob" wrote:
On Feb 2, 2:49 pm, SINNER wrote:

* bob wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

I just ordered a TiVo which should arrive in a few days. I looked
over the alternatives (mainly PC or Mac + tuner + freeware) but for
simplicity and quick starting went with TiVo.

The TiVo box is attractive for its relatively low power consumption
and profile compared to a PC. However with TiVo one must pay the
subscription, so I was wondering...is it possible to hack TiVo to use
a free TV listing?
Because it is STEALING

Is it? If I've bought TiVo's hardware, then simply replace their
software with my own, what am I stealing?
Voiding their warranty, no doubt. But copyright stealing involves
using someone's copyrighted material against their wishes.

Myself, I bought 3 years of prepaid service to get the cheapest rate.
By the time that expires I'll have switched from SD to HD and want to
upgrade my entire TV/"media" system. So for me, my original question
was intellectual. Does anything really prevent replacing their
software with alternate software which allows use of the free TV
listings?

BTW, how are the free listings supported?


The "Stealing" would be similar to you "buying" a cell phone from
Verizon and hacking it to use a different-free-service.

You seriously don't think the phone you got from Verizon for $10,
really only has a Retail price of $10 do you? No. Even a generic
cordless landline phone costs more than that. They make up the loss
by signing you to a contract for services rendered (your 2 year phone
service agreement).

Same with TiVo. A TiVo retails for more than the "free" or $50 price
tag you paid. They make that up with your contract for service.


If he owns the TiVo, it's not stealing. If he owns the cell phone,
it's not stealing. It is not stealing if a customer merely fails to
follow the vendor's business model.

To steal something, somebody has to break a law. Please tell us which
law is broken if I buy a Gillette razor but use off-brand blades in it.

I'm perfectly fine with this point; I just think it has a very low
chance of being applicable to the original poster. The only thing the
OP wanted to change was the ability to use a free TV listing, and to
me that implies he wants to use the rest of the TiVo software in
place. If he wants to replace all the software, then I have no
problems with him. But I regard it as stealing if he wants to use part
of TiVo's software without paying for it.

Chris

In article ,
wrote:

On 2007-02-23, Dr. Personality wrote:
In article . com,
Nfuego wrote:

To steal something, somebody has to break a law. Please tell us which
law is broken if I buy a Gillette razor but use off-brand blades in it.

I'm perfectly fine with this point; I just think it has a very low
chance of being applicable to the original poster. The only thing the
OP wanted to change was the ability to use a free TV listing, and to
me that implies he wants to use the rest of the TiVo software in
place. If he wants to replace all the software, then I have no
problems with him. But I regard it as stealing if he wants to use part
of TiVo's software without paying for it.

Chris


I agree with that. Using TiVo's software (or any part of it) without
compensation to TiVo is theft.

On 2007-02-23, Nfuego wrote:
On Feb 2, 5:20 pm, "bob" wrote:
On Feb 2, 2:49 pm, SINNER wrote:

* bob wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

I just ordered a TiVo which should arrive in a few days. I looked
over the alternatives (mainly PC or Mac + tuner + freeware) but for
simplicity and quick starting went with TiVo.

The TiVo box is attractive for its relatively low power consumption
and profile compared to a PC. However with TiVo one must pay the
subscription, so I was wondering...is it possible to hack TiVo to use
a free TV listing?
Because it is STEALING

Is it? If I've bought TiVo's hardware, then simply replace their
software with my own, what am I stealing?
Voiding their warranty, no doubt. But copyright stealing involves
using someone's copyrighted material against their wishes.

Myself, I bought 3 years of prepaid service to get the cheapest rate.
By the time that expires I'll have switched from SD to HD and want to
upgrade my entire TV/"media" system. So for me, my original question
was intellectual. Does anything really prevent replacing their
software with alternate software which allows use of the free TV
listings?

BTW, how are the free listings supported?


The "Stealing" would be similar to you "buying" a cell phone from
Verizon and hacking it to use a different-free-service.

...which is not "stealing" at all.

You are using a product bought as a loss leader according
to the terms of the sale. That is by no stretch of the imagination
theft.

[deletia]

--
Negligence will never equal intent, no matter how you
attempt to distort reality to do so. This is what separates |||
the real butchers from average Joes (or Fritzes) caught up in / | \
events not in their control.

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On 2007-02-24, Dr. Personality wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On 2007-02-23, Dr. Personality wrote:
In article . com,
Nfuego wrote:

To steal something, somebody has to break a law. Please tell us which
law is broken if I buy a Gillette razor but use off-brand blades in it.

I'm perfectly fine with this point; I just think it has a very low
chance of being applicable to the original poster. The only thing the
OP wanted to change was the ability to use a free TV listing, and to
me that implies he wants to use the rest of the TiVo software in
place. If he wants to replace all the software, then I have no
problems with him. But I regard it as stealing if he wants to use part
of TiVo's software without paying for it.

Chris


I agree with that. Using TiVo's software (or any part of it) without
compensation to TiVo is theft.

When do we get out the manacles and electric cattleprods?

There's rampant feudal corporatism and then there's this.

--
Negligence will never equal intent, no matter how you
attempt to distort reality to do so. This is what separates |||
the real butchers from average Joes (or Fritzes) caught up in / | \
events not in their control.

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com