US ATSC conversion: with 700 some odd days until NTSC is turned off, you would think that US TV stations would run a dayly counter...

"Bob Nielsen" wrote in message news:45ca4079

The US is just as bad (anyone for metric?)

You mean the US is bad for refusing to abandon their old European system for
the new European system?

R Sweeney wrote:
"davmel" wrote in message
...
David wrote:
Besides USA bashing, exactly WTF is your overall point supposed to be?
In case it got lost, my point was that perhaps the conversion/adoption of
digital TV would have been accelerated globally if more countries
participated in an international committee to determine the best
terrestrial digital TV standard rather than developing their own format
for domestic use.
Oh well, no use in crying over spilt milk, the sooner crappy analogue NTSC
transmissions in the USA are switched off the better.

So... which came first ATSC or DVB?
The ATSC was established in 1987.

HD-MAC started in Europe in 1987. There could have been more
co-operation then. Or maybe we should have all joined the Japanese in
1981 with their version of HDTV for an international standard.

The US started its HDTV adventures to beat the Japanese. Same with the
Europeans with HD-MAC and then DVB-T. The Chinese are doing it now with
DMB-TH. Since they are starting last they most likely have the best.

The DVB didn't even start organizing until 1991.

Now... who was it that didn't join the HD party already in progress to for
"form a concerted pan-European platform to develop digital terrestrial TV"
separate from North America?

YES... it was the Europeans who decided NOT to go along and instead have an
all European solution... just like they did in the NTSC(1950 color) /
PAL(1963) / SECAM(1956) days.

Looks to me like everybody did not go along with the "HD party already
in progress" by the first mover, Japan, because they all wanted a self
centric system if possible.

The problem in the US is that we refused to look at or learn from what
others were doing using technology developed right here, OFDM, out of
arrogance and political corruption.

Now the best system in the world, the Chinese DMB-TH, using OFDM
(TDS-OFDM) will probably dominate the world even surpassing DVB-T/H IMO.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller wrote:
R Sweeney wrote:
"davmel" wrote in message
...
David wrote:
Besides USA bashing, exactly WTF is your overall point supposed to
be?
In case it got lost, my point was that perhaps the conversion/adoption
of digital TV would have been accelerated globally if more countries
participated in an international committee to determine the best
terrestrial digital TV standard rather than developing their own
format for domestic use.
Oh well, no use in crying over spilt milk, the sooner crappy analogue
NTSC transmissions in the USA are switched off the better.

So... which came first ATSC or DVB?
The ATSC was established in 1987.

HD-MAC started in Europe in 1987. There could have been more
co-operation then. Or maybe we should have all joined the Japanese in
1981 with their version of HDTV for an international standard.

The US started its HDTV adventures to beat the Japanese. Same with the
Europeans with HD-MAC and then DVB-T. The Chinese are doing it now with
DMB-TH. Since they are starting last they most likely have the best.

The DVB didn't even start organizing until 1991.

Now... who was it that didn't join the HD party already in progress to
for "form a concerted pan-European platform to develop digital
terrestrial TV" separate from North America?

YES... it was the Europeans who decided NOT to go along and instead
have an all European solution... just like they did in the NTSC(1950
color) / PAL(1963) / SECAM(1956) days.

Looks to me like everybody did not go along with the "HD party already
in progress" by the first mover, Japan, because they all wanted a self
centric system if possible.

The problem in the US is that we refused to look at or learn from what
others were doing using technology developed right here, OFDM, out of
arrogance and political corruption.

Now the best system in the world, the Chinese DMB-TH, using OFDM
(TDS-OFDM) will probably dominate the world even surpassing DVB-T/H IMO.

Bob Miller









Oops! Bob ran out of his meds again. Too bad.

Chip

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

wrote in message
...
Bob Miller wrote:
R Sweeney wrote:
"davmel" wrote in message
...
David wrote:
Besides USA bashing, exactly WTF is your overall point supposed to
be?
In case it got lost, my point was that perhaps the conversion/adoption
of digital TV would have been accelerated globally if more countries
participated in an international committee to determine the best
terrestrial digital TV standard rather than developing their own
format for domestic use.
Oh well, no use in crying over spilt milk, the sooner crappy analogue
NTSC transmissions in the USA are switched off the better.

So... which came first ATSC or DVB?
The ATSC was established in 1987.

HD-MAC started in Europe in 1987. There could have been more
co-operation then. Or maybe we should have all joined the Japanese in
1981 with their version of HDTV for an international standard.

The US started its HDTV adventures to beat the Japanese. Same with the
Europeans with HD-MAC and then DVB-T. The Chinese are doing it now with
DMB-TH. Since they are starting last they most likely have the best.

The DVB didn't even start organizing until 1991.

Now... who was it that didn't join the HD party already in progress to
for "form a concerted pan-European platform to develop digital
terrestrial TV" separate from North America?

YES... it was the Europeans who decided NOT to go along and instead
have an all European solution... just like they did in the NTSC(1950
color) / PAL(1963) / SECAM(1956) days.

Looks to me like everybody did not go along with the "HD party already
in progress" by the first mover, Japan, because they all wanted a self
centric system if possible.

The problem in the US is that we refused to look at or learn from what
others were doing using technology developed right here, OFDM, out of
arrogance and political corruption.

Now the best system in the world, the Chinese DMB-TH, using OFDM
(TDS-OFDM) will probably dominate the world even surpassing DVB-T/H IMO.

Bob Miller









Oops! Bob ran out of his meds again. Too bad.

Chip

Hilarious...
Yes, everyone was hot after a 36 MHz per HD channel system.

Imagine...
A HFC cable TV system capable of carrying only 20 channels.

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, R Sweeney wrote:
Yes, everyone was hot after a 36 MHz per HD channel system.

Good enough for Japan, which only has 8 channels in Tokyo and fewer
elsewhere...

Imagine...
A HFC cable TV system capable of carrying only 20 channels.

But it could have Bob Miller's tampon commercials on city buses.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

R Sweeney wrote:
wrote in message
...
Bob Miller wrote:
R Sweeney wrote:
"davmel" wrote in message
...
David wrote:
Besides USA bashing, exactly WTF is your overall point supposed to
be?
In case it got lost, my point was that perhaps the conversion/adoption
of digital TV would have been accelerated globally if more countries
participated in an international committee to determine the best
terrestrial digital TV standard rather than developing their own
format for domestic use.
Oh well, no use in crying over spilt milk, the sooner crappy analogue
NTSC transmissions in the USA are switched off the better.
So... which came first ATSC or DVB?
The ATSC was established in 1987.
HD-MAC started in Europe in 1987. There could have been more
co-operation then. Or maybe we should have all joined the Japanese in
1981 with their version of HDTV for an international standard.

The US started its HDTV adventures to beat the Japanese. Same with the
Europeans with HD-MAC and then DVB-T. The Chinese are doing it now with
DMB-TH. Since they are starting last they most likely have the best.

The DVB didn't even start organizing until 1991.

Now... who was it that didn't join the HD party already in progress to
for "form a concerted pan-European platform to develop digital
terrestrial TV" separate from North America?

YES... it was the Europeans who decided NOT to go along and instead
have an all European solution... just like they did in the NTSC(1950
color) / PAL(1963) / SECAM(1956) days.

Looks to me like everybody did not go along with the "HD party already
in progress" by the first mover, Japan, because they all wanted a self
centric system if possible.

The problem in the US is that we refused to look at or learn from what
others were doing using technology developed right here, OFDM, out of
arrogance and political corruption.

Now the best system in the world, the Chinese DMB-TH, using OFDM
(TDS-OFDM) will probably dominate the world even surpassing DVB-T/H IMO.

Bob Miller







Oops! Bob ran out of his meds again. Too bad.

Chip

Hilarious...
Yes, everyone was hot after a 36 MHz per HD channel system.

Imagine...
A HFC cable TV system capable of carrying only 20 channels.

There you go. Yes the Japanese system was a lousy analog system and it
was hot enough so that the US Congress went bananas to develop a US
system that was its equal. At the time they, Congress, didn't have any
idea that it could be done digitally. So the US DIDN'T follow the leader
at the time for reasons similar to what the Europeans are accused of here.

And the HD-Mac system was lousy so no one was going to follow that. For
the same reason NO one followed the US with 8-VSB because it was and
still is lousy. In fact many countries that had been counted as in the
ATSC 8-VSB camp jumped ship since it was so lousy.

No the Europeans felt that they might be able to solve the multipath
problem while going digital, thought that was a good goal to aim for and
dismissed 8-VSB because it did not address the issue. I think that was
the logical thing to do and they did it.

Yes imagine a system that that is stuck with MPEG-2 compression, does
not work mobile and works lousy in multipath challenged environments in
this day and age. Its criminal. There should be a law against 8-VSB.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller wrote:
Yes imagine a system that that is stuck with MPEG-2 compression, does
not work mobile and works lousy in multipath challenged environments in
this day and age. Its criminal. There should be a law against 8-VSB.

Bob Miller

Of course it's criminal and why it should belong to the country with the
highest per capita incarceration rates in the world! ;-)

Bob Miller wrote:

Yes imagine a system that that is stuck with MPEG-2 compression, does
not work mobile and works lousy in multipath challenged environments in
this day and age. Its criminal. There should be a law against 8-VSB.

Bob Miller

Wack job Bob is at it again! Who cares if it works mobile? Virtually
no one but you and the soccer moms with their snot nosed kids who
won't shut up in the back seat. (Were you one of those kids, Bob?)
8-VSB works great, especially with the newest tuners. Just another
lie by our resident nut job, Bob! Please go away, again!!!

Chip

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007, Bob Miller wrote:
For the
same reason NO one followed the US with 8-VSB because it was and still is
lousy. In fact many countries that had been counted as in the ATSC 8-VSB camp
jumped ship since it was so lousy.

As a result, most of those countries still don't have HDTV.

No the Europeans felt that they might be able to solve the multipath problem
while going digital, thought that was a good goal to aim for and dismissed
8-VSB because it did not address the issue. I think that was the logical
thing to do and they did it.

Just as it was logical to design PAL to work around cheap single vacuum
tube front ends that couldn't hold stable color in NTSC. Never mind that
modern solid state electronics solved the problem for NTSC, and that the
phase shift in PAL is now a detriment. The Europeans still cling to the
fantasy that they have better TV than the US because their color system
works better with 1960s vacuum tube front ends.

Better ATSC receivers have scored significant advances on the multipath
problem, and there's still another two years of technology advance to go.
By the time the Europeans get HDTV going, multipath will be a complete
non-issue with ATSC, but the Europeans will be stuck with a system that
requires more power and covers less distance.

Yes imagine a system that that is stuck with MPEG-2 compression,

MPEG-2 is a fine compression for the purpose of carrying HDTV in a North
American 6MHz channel allocation. The only reason to want MPEG-4 is to
cram more channels into less bandwidth.

As numerous people have reported, OTA broadcasts in MPEG-2 regularly
outperform the same material on DirecTV's MPEG-4. Psycho Bob can rant and
rave as much as he wants, but the fact remains is that there is NO
evidence of superior performance from MPEG-4 over MPEG-2, and ABUNDANT
evidence of superior performance from MPEG-2 over MPEG-4.

does not
work mobile

Nor does COFDM. As I reported from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in January,
Japan's COFDM-based digital TV system fails in a vehicle moving faster
than about 10MPH. I tried it both in cars (as a passenger) and trains.

Inside a Japanese house, you have to "assume portable TV viewing position"
to get the signal to stay stable. If you move the TV, or your body, the
signal breaks up.

To receive COFDM TV on your big screen TV, you need to have cable,
satellite, or a tall mast antenna on your roof that puts to shame anything
seen in the US. They don't even sell indoor antennas in Japan.

and works lousy in multipath challenged environments in this day
and age.

With "this day and age" defined as being 1999.

2006 vintage receivers, such as DirecTV's H20, work much better; and by
the time analog is turned off receivers will work even better. The
multipath problems are already non-existant for many viewers, and will
become non-existant for most viewers shortly.

Its criminal. There should be a law against 8-VSB.

There should be a law against Bob Miller and other snake-oil salesmen.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

wrote in message
...
Bob Miller wrote:

Yes imagine a system that that is stuck with MPEG-2 compression, does
not work mobile and works lousy in multipath challenged environments in
this day and age. Its criminal. There should be a law against 8-VSB.

Bob Miller

Wack job Bob is at it again! Who cares if it works mobile? Virtually
no one but you and the soccer moms with their snot nosed kids who
won't shut up in the back seat. (Were you one of those kids, Bob?)
8-VSB works great, especially with the newest tuners. Just another
lie by our resident nut job, Bob! Please go away, again!!!

Chip

What kind of nut thinks that mobile tv is more important than tv that works
in the vast suburban and near rural areas of America?

The the NAB and the Maximum Service TV broadcaster representatives groups
were major forces behind selection of 8VSB because of its superior
performance in the fringes.