The pain of waiting for a 5th gen receiver

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:31:48 GMT, Bob Miller wrote:

Fun to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=725544

Now we are talking 6th gen LG receiver and they still have no 5th gen yet.

Bob Miller

AGREED.

_what wrote in message ...
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:31:48 GMT, Bob Miller wrote:

Fun to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=725544

Now we are talking 6th gen LG receiver and they still have no 5th gen yet.

Bob Miller

AGREED.

There is an add on HDTV box for laptops and PC's via USB2 sporting 5th
generation chip sets, yes there is. It also does analog and open digital
cable channels. About $150.00.

Richard.

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Randy Yates wrote:
Bob Miller writes:
[...] Unsubstantiated assertions omitted

For those that might be interested in actual technical analysis of
8VSB versus OFDM and not merely unsubstantiated assertions, see the
threads in comp.dsp starting with "Simple-Minded."

The bottom line: 8VSB is not as power efficient as it could be, and
it may require more MIPS to perform as well in multipath, but it's
doable.


Doable??? And still compatible with current US 8-VSB receivers??? NO!

Doable?? At any reasonable cost? NO!

Doable?? Many respondents on comp.dsp suggested very emphatically NOT!!!

The leader in the field might be LG which holds most of the IP rights to
they current US 8-VSB. The engineers that are responsible for their latest
tech, 5th gen prototype tested two years ago but never put into
production, agreed with me that NO version of 8-VSB would ever be
developed that would match DVB-T COFDM.

And OFDM has gone far beyond that.

Bob Miller


If the 5th generation tuners are not in production how would one account for
the abundance of tuners for PCs that are sold with 5th generation tuners.
Just because your "opinion" is that the tuners are not the same as the
prototype you were shown doesn't provide hard evidence they are not in fact
the same.

I have PC tuners from the 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th generations and the
improvements of each over the previous generation shows the technology can
and has improved to a great degree. From 1st to 5th generation the
improvement in reception is remarkable, from 4th to 5th is easily displayed
using different antennas. The 4th generation tuner works well at my home
even though the location suffers from poor reception because it sits lower
then other home between it and the transmitters. While I can't move about
the house using a coat hanger for an antenna I never expected to be able to.
A simple roof mounted antenna pull all the channel in my area strong enough
that the reception is more stable then a satellite signal with a 4th
generation tuner.

You posted at the time of the demonstration that your standard for reception
was fulfilled by the 5th generation tuner, and in the form of a retraction
later claim that the 5th generation tuner as you and select few have seen
it, is not the same as the one being sold today. If in fact this were true
then we have improvements already developed for 8-vbs tuners that we can
look forward to the future.

Richard wrote:
_what wrote in message ...
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:31:48 GMT, Bob Miller wrote:

Fun to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=725544

Now we are talking 6th gen LG receiver and they still have no 5th gen yet.

Bob Miller
AGREED.

There is an add on HDTV box for laptops and PC's via USB2 sporting 5th
generation chip sets, yes there is. It also does analog and open digital
cable channels. About $150.00.

Richard.


First of all I was talking only of LG 5th gen STB's being sold to the
general public by LG. Doesn't exist and more to the point nothing
approaching the LG 5th gen prototype is even being discussed.

It is rumored that the 6th gen LG design will be as good as the 5th gen
prototype.

Yes there are a number of USB2 and PCI cards with 5th gen LG chips on
them. I have a number of them. They are not as good as the prototype by
a long shot.

If LG shows a 5th gen receiver will they produce that is the question.

Bob Miller

jolt wrote:
"Bob Miller" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Randy Yates wrote:
Bob Miller writes:
[...] Unsubstantiated assertions omitted
For those that might be interested in actual technical analysis of
8VSB versus OFDM and not merely unsubstantiated assertions, see the
threads in comp.dsp starting with "Simple-Minded."

The bottom line: 8VSB is not as power efficient as it could be, and
it may require more MIPS to perform as well in multipath, but it's
doable.
Doable??? And still compatible with current US 8-VSB receivers??? NO!

Doable?? At any reasonable cost? NO!

Doable?? Many respondents on comp.dsp suggested very emphatically NOT!!!

The leader in the field might be LG which holds most of the IP rights to
they current US 8-VSB. The engineers that are responsible for their latest
tech, 5th gen prototype tested two years ago but never put into
production, agreed with me that NO version of 8-VSB would ever be
developed that would match DVB-T COFDM.

And OFDM has gone far beyond that.

Bob Miller


If the 5th generation tuners are not in production how would one account for
the abundance of tuners for PCs that are sold with 5th generation tuners.
Just because your "opinion" is that the tuners are not the same as the
prototype you were shown doesn't provide hard evidence they are not in fact
the same.

I have PC tuners from the 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th generations and the
improvements of each over the previous generation shows the technology can
and has improved to a great degree. From 1st to 5th generation the
improvement in reception is remarkable, from 4th to 5th is easily displayed
using different antennas. The 4th generation tuner works well at my home
even though the location suffers from poor reception because it sits lower
then other home between it and the transmitters. While I can't move about
the house using a coat hanger for an antenna I never expected to be able to.
A simple roof mounted antenna pull all the channel in my area strong enough
that the reception is more stable then a satellite signal with a 4th
generation tuner.

You posted at the time of the demonstration that your standard for reception
was fulfilled by the 5th generation tuner, and in the form of a retraction
later claim that the 5th generation tuner as you and select few have seen
it, is not the same as the one being sold today. If in fact this were true
then we have improvements already developed for 8-vbs tuners that we can
look forward to the future.


The prototype was different physically than the 5th gen LG tuners being
sold today. The prototype had the 5th gen chip on a motherboard with
other electronics. The 5th gen tuner being sold is in the tuner itself
that is then installed on the board.

LG has acknowledged that there is a difference. They worked with two
different companies that were using their 5th gen chips to try and help
them match the prototype at my repeated nagging request.

We had no success. In fact I know of no concrete suggestions from LG
which leads me to believe that they knew what was needed but were not
going to share for whatever reason.

One reason would have been to install the better technology in their
integrated HD sets.

Another reason could have been that the technology was too expensive and
they did not want the market to know that.

Whatever their reason they have not done anything about it yet. Maybe
the 6th gen will incorporate that tech.

Still nowhere near the quality of a 1999 COFDM DVB-T receiver, a Chinese
VSB receiver or any other modern modulation's receiver.

Still the bottom of the barrel junk even if it works minimally well. Not
something to be proud of. A political piece of garbage dumped on the public.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller wrote:
Richard wrote:
_what wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:31:48 GMT, Bob Miller wrote:

Fun to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=725544

Now we are talking 6th gen LG receiver and they still have no 5th gen
yet.

Bob Miller
AGREED.

There is an add on HDTV box for laptops and PC's via USB2 sporting 5th
generation chip sets, yes there is. It also does analog and open
digital cable channels. About $150.00.

Richard.


First of all I was talking only of LG 5th gen STB's being sold to the
general public by LG. Doesn't exist and more to the point nothing
approaching the LG 5th gen prototype is even being discussed.

It is rumored that the 6th gen LG design will be as good as the 5th gen
prototype.

Yes there are a number of USB2 and PCI cards with 5th gen LG chips on
them. I have a number of them. They are not as good as the prototype by
a long shot.

If LG shows a 5th gen receiver will they produce that is the question.

Bob Miller

Maybe LG is smarter than you are (!) Bob, and knows that the 5th generation chip that they are using for the Directv boxes and
their own televisions is more than good enough the way it is. You may be blind to the truth, but most of the rest of us know what it is.

Chip

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_what wrote in message ...
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 02:31:48 GMT, Bob Miller wrote:

Fun to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=725544

Now we are talking 6th gen LG receiver and they still have no 5th gen yet.

Bob Miller

AGREED.




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