Series 3 "Features"

Mike Hunt wrote:
Oh? So this is now a common CPU found in PCs?

DTiVo: /var/tmp 1 cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
cpu : IBM 403GCX

It's a PowerPC embedded processor and a first cousin of the G4 and G5
processors Apple used in its computers until very recently. Also,
millions of these go into cars each year.

"Off-the-shelf" doesn't necessarily imply that one can assemble a TiVo
from the contents of a neighborhood computer store; rather, the phrase
means that the TiVos are manufactured off the very same ODM assembly
lines that manufacture computers, cable set-top boxes, and other
consumer-electronics devices. Like desktop PCs, TiVos use stock hard
drives, RAM, and other components familiar to anyone who's assembled a
PC. Like set-top boxes, TiVos use off-the-shelf (which, again, doesn't
necessarily mean one can purchase a single unit at retail) MPEG
decoders. So, no, there's nothing very exotic about TiVos hardwarewise
versus a stock desktop PC. (The fact that Linux runs on the boxes
ought to be a clue.)

Yeechang, whose cable provider is one of those that provide full,
untrammeled access to all subscribed channels over FireWire

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URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/ PERTH ---- *

Homemade 2.8TB RAID 5 storage array:
URL:http://groups.google.ca/groups?selm=slrnd1g04a.5mt.ylee%40pobox.com

On 2006-09-20, Mike Hunt wrote:
On 2006-09-20, JEDIDIAH wrote:
On 2006-09-19, Mike Hunt wrote:

Not exactly, no. They're not using off the shelf PC components. Just

This is simply absurd.

They have to be using off-the-shelf PC components in order for
the economics of the device to make any sense. Doing otherwise
would simply incurr unnacceptable engineering costs in terms
of both the hardware and the software.

Oh? So this is now a common CPU found in PCs?

They were the core of the Macintosh for years.


DTiVo: /var/tmp 1 cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
cpu : IBM 403GCX
clock : 72MHz
revision : 20.1
bogomips : 71.88
machine : Teleworld Customer Device

I don't believe I know of any electronics store I can walk into and pick
one of these up off the shelf.


This is just the embedded version of what Macs ran until
just very recently and what continues to power many of IBM's own
various lines of servers

The machine that the Linux project leader uses to develop
the Linux kernel runs this same family of microprocessors. The 403
is explicitly mentioned on the Linux PPC homepage.

IOW -- Tivo Corp saves money by leveraging the work of
others and using well known standardized components.

So you've finally discovered that Tivos use the same core
as older Macintoshes and monster Unix servers from IBM. Big Whoop.

--
Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
|||
/ | \

JEDIDIAH wrote:

This is a freebie they get for using PC components and a PC OS.
Not exactly, no. They're not using off the shelf PC components. Just

This is simply absurd.

They have to be using off-the-shelf PC components

You're wrong. They are not using Intel x86 CPUs.

telnet joe-tivo
=[joe-tivo:root]-# cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
cpu : IBM 403GCX
clock : 54MHz
revision : 20.1
bogomips : 53.86
machine : Teleworld Customer Device
=[joe-tivo:root]-# head -2 /proc/meminfo
total: used: free: shared: buffers: cached:
Mem: 14278656 13377536 901120 128573440 86016 4161536



telnet hd-tivo
BigTivo-TiVo# cat /proc/cpuinfo
system type : TiVo UMA P0 board
processor : 0
cpu model : R5432 V3.0 FPU V1.0
BogoMIPS : 161.79
wait instruction : no
microsecond timers : yes
tlb_entries : 48
extra interrupt vector : no
hardware watchpoint : yes
spurious interrupts : 3504
cycle counter frequency : 81003906
BigTivo-TiVo# head -2 /proc/meminfo
total: used: free: shared: buffers: cached:
Mem: 93495296 69656576 23838720 0 11567104 40202240


Even though they are using industry-standard chips for MPEG
decoding, the motherboards are custom designed.
-Joe

On 2006-09-20, Joe Smith wrote:
JEDIDIAH wrote:
If it's got a USB port or firewire,
then it's got a "DVD burner built in".
That is just not correct and misleading at best.

Unless they intentionally cripple Linux (quite likely the case), any
DVD drive attached to either interface will be detected and utilized
by the system as if it were inside the chasis.

It is not Linux from a full distribution. It has only what is
required to run the TiVo application. No unnecessary device drivers.
No DVD applications.

It's the same kernel.

...should make things like usb-storage.ko not to difficult to
get going...

--
Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
|||
/ | \

JEDIDIAH wrote:

Not exactly, no. They're not using off the shelf PC components. Just

Right. To many, "PC components" means "stuff found in WinTel PCs".
TiVo is not using Pentium/Northbridge/Southbridge/etc.

This is simply absurd.

They have to be using off-the-shelf PC components in order for
the economics of the device to make any sense. Doing otherwise
would simply incurr unnacceptable engineering costs in terms
of both the hardware and the software.

Series 1 TiVo: http://www.9thtee.com/insidetivo.htm
Scroll down to the Chip Identification Chart

Series 2 TiVo: http://www.9thtee.com/insideseries2tivo.htm

On 2006-09-20, Joe Smith wrote:
JEDIDIAH wrote:

This is a freebie they get for using PC components and a PC OS.
Not exactly, no. They're not using off the shelf PC components. Just

This is simply absurd.

They have to be using off-the-shelf PC components

You're wrong. They are not using Intel x86 CPUs.

So? There were DEC Alpha boards 10 years ago that
were little more than a conventional PC motherboard with
just a different microprocessor.

[deletia]
Even though they are using industry-standard chips for MPEG
decoding, the motherboards are custom designed.

If I yanked the PCI headers off of my current laptop
and desktop motherboards you would probably think they were
custom designed too. There are standard IO buses even for the
cards themselves now.


--
Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
|||
/ | \

Joe Smith wrote:
JEDIDIAH wrote:
This is a freebie they get for using PC components and a PC OS.

Not exactly, no. They're not using off the shelf PC components. Just

This is simply absurd.
They have to be using off-the-shelf PC components

You're wrong. They are not using Intel x86 CPUs.

Sorry, Jedidiah, the above outburst was based on the assumption that
"PC components" refers to hardware that runs Microsoft Windows and/or
Linux x86 code.

Obviously, when using the other definition of Personal Computer (to
include any computer affordable by persons at home), TiVo is using
off-the-shelf "PC components". Power supply, CPU, memory modules,
MPEG encoder/decoder chips, etc.

But the motherboard that TiVo and DirecTV are using is most
definitely not off-the-shelf.

-Joe

"Mike Hunt" wrote in message ...
On 2006-09-20, JEDIDIAH wrote:
On 2006-09-19, Mike Hunt wrote:

Not exactly, no. They're not using off the shelf PC components. Just

This is simply absurd.

They have to be using off-the-shelf PC components in order for
the economics of the device to make any sense. Doing otherwise
would simply incurr unnacceptable engineering costs in terms
of both the hardware and the software.

Oh? So this is now a common CPU found in PCs?

DTiVo: /var/tmp 1 cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
cpu : IBM 403GCX
clock : 72MHz
revision : 20.1
bogomips : 71.88
machine : Teleworld Customer Device

I don't believe I know of any electronics store I can walk into and pick
one of these up off the shelf.


Why would you want to do that? The 72 MHz processors are quite slow
compared with current CPU chips. My 60 MHz Pentium based PC is more
than ten years old. Electronics stores don't maintain inventory of obsolete
technology.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 14:33:29 -0500, JEDIDIAH
wrote:

On 2006-09-19, Mike Hunt wrote:
On 2006-09-19, JEDIDIAH wrote:
On 2006-09-19, Mike Hunt wrote:
On 2006-09-19, Ed wrote:
As far as I can tell, the new Series 3 Tivo:
[deletia]
It has no DVD burner built in so not having this option makes sense. If
you mean something like a "Save to VCR", I would assume they still have
that.

If it's got a USB port or firewire,
then it's got a "DVD burner built in".

That is just not correct and misleading at best.

Unless they intentionally cripple Linux (quite likely the case), any
DVD drive attached to either interface will be detected and utilized
by the system as if it were inside the chasis.

Are you saying that an external USB DVD burner can be attached and
used?

They have to go out of their way to make it not supported.

This is a freebie they get for using PC components and a PC OS.


Because the Myth box cannot record HD Cable channels while this TiVo S3
can.

...not entirely correct.

At this point, there may be as many Tivos recording HD cable channels
as S3's (oddly enough).

What are you talking about?

The level of encryption is up to the local cable provider.


The last time I set up a Myth Box was 1.5 years back and it was
painful. Maybe it is better now, but at least it would be less
crippled than this system.

Or more crippled, if you wanted to record HD Cable channels.

...of which there are a very limited number.

There are a very limited number of HD channels period. Some are on cable.
If you want to record these HD cable ones, the TiVo S3 has a much much
much higher chance of working for you than a MythTV system.

Until this cablecard business gets sorted out, it's hard to
say really. Tivo is really everything that the cable industry
is trying to avoid with their current DRM scheme. With a
bunch of Linux boxes out there with cablecards in them the
whole thing could blow up quite spectacularly.
Thanks in advance!!!

Regards,

Steve B.

On 2006-09-20, Peter H. Coffin wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 09:44:26 -0700, Joe Smith wrote:
Joe Smith wrote:
JEDIDIAH wrote:
This is a freebie they get for using PC components and a PC OS.

Not exactly, no. They're not using off the shelf PC components. Just

This is simply absurd.
They have to be using off-the-shelf PC components

You're wrong. They are not using Intel x86 CPUs.

Sorry, Jedidiah, the above outburst was based on the assumption that
"PC components" refers to hardware that runs Microsoft Windows and/or
Linux x86 code.

The whole point of something like Unix is that the microprocessor
is not a source of vendor lockin any more. Take away the highly
proprietary nature of Windows in particular and the question of
which cpu is in your PCI based microcomputer (ppc, mc680x0, x86,
mips, sparc) suddenly becomes irrelevant.

Even the device drivers can be cross platform at source level.


Obviously, when using the other definition of Personal Computer (to
include any computer affordable by persons at home), TiVo is using
off-the-shelf "PC components". Power supply, CPU, memory modules,
MPEG encoder/decoder chips, etc.

FWIW, the IBM Network Station 300 also used these chips as their main
processors.



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Spongebob Squarepants cartoon.


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