Scaling & HDMI-HDCP compliancy

These questions may have been answered too many times before - pls
understand THIS replay.

For 720, 768-line displays, virtually all of the digital TVs out there,
since they is not an even multiple of 480, without going through the math,
what does the hardware do to upscale, generate a clean picture?
Interpolation? Stuff thrown away?

When all is said and done, which native resolution display will do the best
job?? When the source is: 480 NTSC? 720P? 1080I? It seems that if I buy
a 720P display, something will have to give for other sources. True?

DVDs (not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) are 480-line sources?

New Subject:

When a digital TV offers HDMI capability, should one assume that the display
is ALSO HDCP-compliant? In other words, by definition are all
HDMI-connected TVs, HDCP-compliant?

Thanks!

BTW, a suggested link to where all or much of this can be found?

Wayne

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:47:45 GMT, "Wayne G. Dengel"
wrote:

These questions may have been answered too many times before - pls
understand THIS replay.

For 720, 768-line displays, virtually all of the digital TVs out there,
since they is not an even multiple of 480, without going through the math,
what does the hardware do to upscale, generate a clean picture?
Interpolation? Stuff thrown away?

Most of them throw away an (overscan) area around all edges and scale
the rest to the screen resolution.
There are only certain models that can be percueded to display (and
often only a PC processed) signal, pixel for pixel (aka 1:1 pixel
mapping).

It should be noted that a display that only can update progressive can
never display the source pixels 1:1 if the signal is interlaced and
origins from interlaced material. This is beacuse there will be motion
between all half frames. Processing needs to be done and all pixles in
all half frames can not be shown 1:1, and all pixels in the displayed
frames is not 1:1 from the source.

It should also be noted that scaling progressive material can be done
if the picture content is smooth. It is much more difficult to scale
content that rely on beeing displayed without processing, like sharp
computer generated text and menus.

When all is said and done, which native resolution display will do the best
job?? When the source is: 480 NTSC? 720P? 1080I? It seems that if I buy
a 720P display, something will have to give for other sources. True?

You also have to consider the type of the source material.
Taking 1080i as an example, it can be an interlaced source in either
50Hz or 60Hz.
It can be from a Film (originally in 24Hz) and transfered with 3:2
sequencing for 60Hz market or 2:2 (in 25Hz) for 50Hz market.

Just mentioning the 2006 world cup socker game as example, it was
sourced in interlaced 1080i in 50Hz (I believe). CRT HDTV:s (that
possibly can show 50Hz interlaced) is not att all common in Europe so
I'd say that everyone had to convert it to progressive. In fact my
network did that, giving no other options. They didn't talk about the
interlaced source but they adverticed the broadcast as 720p with the
argument that progressive is better for sport. I agree but the
condition is that the source is progressive.

My (somewhat old) LCD-TV only have inputs for 1080i (not 720p) with is
then converted back to progressive for display, so I had to let the
STB again convert the 720p _signal_ I received to 1080i for the
transfer to the TV. The result of all this is that motion is not
handled well.

I'd say that whatever (resolution/display type/model) you buy is a
compromise with some parameters on the plus side and some on the
minus.

DVDs (not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) are 480-line sources?

For NTSC market, yes (480i/60).
For PAL market 576i/50.
The same distinction applies here between film material and TV
material.

Personally I'm disturbed by the motion judder/stroboscope effect in
24/25Hz film material if displayed without motion estimating
uppsampling, so I'm looking for an HDTV that can do that also on HDTV
signals.

New Subject:
...are all HDMI-connected TVs, HDCP-compliant?

I believe that HDMI is specified including HDCP but also some models
are reported to have "compatibility issues".
/Jan

Fantastic reply. Thank You!


"Jan B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:47:45 GMT, "Wayne G. Dengel"
wrote:

These questions may have been answered too many times before - pls
understand THIS replay.

For 720, 768-line displays, virtually all of the digital TVs out there,
since they is not an even multiple of 480, without going through the math,
what does the hardware do to upscale, generate a clean picture?
Interpolation? Stuff thrown away?

Most of them throw away an (overscan) area around all edges and scale
the rest to the screen resolution.
There are only certain models that can be percueded to display (and
often only a PC processed) signal, pixel for pixel (aka 1:1 pixel
mapping).

It should be noted that a display that only can update progressive can
never display the source pixels 1:1 if the signal is interlaced and
origins from interlaced material. This is beacuse there will be motion
between all half frames. Processing needs to be done and all pixles in
all half frames can not be shown 1:1, and all pixels in the displayed
frames is not 1:1 from the source.

It should also be noted that scaling progressive material can be done
if the picture content is smooth. It is much more difficult to scale
content that rely on beeing displayed without processing, like sharp
computer generated text and menus.

When all is said and done, which native resolution display will do the
best
job?? When the source is: 480 NTSC? 720P? 1080I? It seems that if I
buy
a 720P display, something will have to give for other sources. True?

You also have to consider the type of the source material.
Taking 1080i as an example, it can be an interlaced source in either
50Hz or 60Hz.
It can be from a Film (originally in 24Hz) and transfered with 3:2
sequencing for 60Hz market or 2:2 (in 25Hz) for 50Hz market.

Just mentioning the 2006 world cup socker game as example, it was
sourced in interlaced 1080i in 50Hz (I believe). CRT HDTV:s (that
possibly can show 50Hz interlaced) is not att all common in Europe so
I'd say that everyone had to convert it to progressive. In fact my
network did that, giving no other options. They didn't talk about the
interlaced source but they adverticed the broadcast as 720p with the
argument that progressive is better for sport. I agree but the
condition is that the source is progressive.

My (somewhat old) LCD-TV only have inputs for 1080i (not 720p) with is
then converted back to progressive for display, so I had to let the
STB again convert the 720p _signal_ I received to 1080i for the
transfer to the TV. The result of all this is that motion is not
handled well.

I'd say that whatever (resolution/display type/model) you buy is a
compromise with some parameters on the plus side and some on the
minus.

DVDs (not Blu-Ray or HD-DVD) are 480-line sources?

For NTSC market, yes (480i/60).
For PAL market 576i/50.
The same distinction applies here between film material and TV
material.

Personally I'm disturbed by the motion judder/stroboscope effect in
24/25Hz film material if displayed without motion estimating
uppsampling, so I'm looking for an HDTV that can do that also on HDTV
signals.

New Subject:
...are all HDMI-connected TVs, HDCP-compliant?

I believe that HDMI is specified including HDCP but also some models
are reported to have "compatibility issues".
/Jan

Most of them throw away an (overscan) area around all edges and scale
the rest to the screen resolution.
There are only certain models that can be percueded to display (and
often only a PC processed) signal, pixel for pixel (aka 1:1 pixel
mapping).


Which lcds can be persueded to 1:1 pixel mapping?? I'm trying with Sony
Kdl-32s2000 on Geforce 6800 but picture is upscaled. 1280x720 exceeds native
1366x768 of display (

Regrads, Tomek

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:04:35 +0200, "Tomek" wrote:


Most of them throw away an (overscan) area around all edges and scale
the rest to the screen resolution.
There are only certain models that can be percueded to display (and
often only a PC processed) signal, pixel for pixel (aka 1:1 pixel
mapping).


Which lcds can be persueded to 1:1 pixel mapping?? I'm trying with Sony
Kdl-32s2000 on Geforce 6800 but picture is upscaled. 1280x720 exceeds native
1366x768 of display (

It is reported that that Sony model can do it at the resolution
1360x768 on the VGA input (but not on the HDMI).
It has to be 1360 horisontal pixels and leaves 3 black columns at each
side. At least the V-model has adjustments for phase and clock so I
assume also the S has it (automatic adjustment doesn't always work.)
/Jan

Which lcds can be persueded to 1:1 pixel mapping?? I'm trying with Sony
Kdl-32s2000 on Geforce 6800 but picture is upscaled. 1280x720 exceeds
native
1366x768 of display (

It is reported that that Sony model can do it at the resolution
1360x768 on the VGA input (but not on the HDMI).
It has to be 1360 horisontal pixels and leaves 3 black columns at each
side. At least the V-model has adjustments for phase and clock so I
assume also the S has it (automatic adjustment doesn't always work.)
/Jan

Actually I've connected it via d-sub, and you're absolutly right at
resulution 1360x768 it looked very good with perfect 1:1 mapping. S-series
has also adjustments for phase and clock but there was no need to use it.
But I was sure that digital connection dvi-hdmi can do only better. I
supposed that it's drivers or settings problem.
I wonder, which connection is better for watching 720p contents, in both
cases picture must be scaled.

Thx for reply, regards
Tomek

It is imperative that I use a fully-compliant HDMI display. (Client-system
design.)

When all is said and done (No PC connection), what native resolutions and
respective mnfrs are going do the best job in applying overscan?

Does anyone apply interpolation? Or is that a technique beyond the $s that
one may get for the current line of scalers?

What is confusing is determining the best picture for a 768 display, a 720
display and a 1080 display. Depends on the source of course. So for all of
the media currently out there + the new 1080P DVDs, where does one put down
their money? Or are we being "jerked" around by the mnfrs? See msg
above, my reply to HDMI from Mandy. Noticed at one large retailer the
(unusually) high number of returns. When the display gets home, the images
are not at all like what the buyer saw in the store.

Wayne






"Jan B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 19:04:35 +0200, "Tomek" wrote:


Most of them throw away an (overscan) area around all edges and scale
the rest to the screen resolution.
There are only certain models that can be percueded to display (and
often only a PC processed) signal, pixel for pixel (aka 1:1 pixel
mapping).


Which lcds can be persueded to 1:1 pixel mapping?? I'm trying with Sony
Kdl-32s2000 on Geforce 6800 but picture is upscaled. 1280x720 exceeds
native
1366x768 of display (

It is reported that that Sony model can do it at the resolution
1360x768 on the VGA input (but not on the HDMI).
It has to be 1360 horisontal pixels and leaves 3 black columns at each
side. At least the V-model has adjustments for phase and clock so I
assume also the S has it (automatic adjustment doesn't always work.)
/Jan