Do you really like the way HDTV looks?

Went into a local Circuit City and took a good long look at their HDTV
selections. They had several including 2 1080p sets that I was told were set
up correctly and what I was seeing was as good as it gets. Everything HD
from the cams to the screen. Both the 1080p's were running some sort of hard
drive unit, not off a broadcast.

I've been hearing how amazing HDTV is. Well....while there's a certain "pow"
when you first see them, I get the sense it's due to some artifically
induced phenomena. The colors seem vivid, but it seems to me in an
enhanced - i.e. forced way. There seems to be an excessive "whiteness" to
the image that adds a certain kind of sparkle/sharpness, but again it seems
artificial. The real world as viewed by eyeballs doesn't seem that "sharp"
or vivid. The demos that were showing were clearly intended to take
advantage of this, all these closeups of brightly colored flowers,
snowboarders on glaring snow etc. I don't believe a sky exists anywhere the
shade of blue they were depicting in that demo.

I see all kinds of artifacts in the images. Yeah, okay, they're not meant to
be viewed from 6 inches away. But when I back off to 8 - 10 feet, I still
see this odd graininess, especially when the image pans. Plus all these
other odd things that happen to the image. Overall I find it harder on my
eyes than a sharp picture on a good analog tv.

As I understand it, in a few years we're getting all digital whether we like
it or not. Is the whole HDTV thing just a bill of goods we got sold/crammed
down our throats?

HiC wrote:
Went into a local Circuit City and took a good long look at their HDTV
selections. They had several including 2 1080p sets that I was told were set
up correctly and what I was seeing was as good as it gets. Everything HD
from the cams to the screen. Both the 1080p's were running some sort of hard
drive unit, not off a broadcast.

I've been hearing how amazing HDTV is. Well....while there's a certain "pow"
when you first see them, I get the sense it's due to some artifically
induced phenomena. The colors seem vivid, but it seems to me in an
enhanced - i.e. forced way. There seems to be an excessive "whiteness" to
the image that adds a certain kind of sparkle/sharpness, but again it seems
artificial. The real world as viewed by eyeballs doesn't seem that "sharp"
or vivid. The demos that were showing were clearly intended to take
advantage of this, all these closeups of brightly colored flowers,
snowboarders on glaring snow etc. I don't believe a sky exists anywhere the
shade of blue they were depicting in that demo.

I see all kinds of artifacts in the images. Yeah, okay, they're not meant to
be viewed from 6 inches away. But when I back off to 8 - 10 feet, I still
see this odd graininess, especially when the image pans. Plus all these
other odd things that happen to the image. Overall I find it harder on my
eyes than a sharp picture on a good analog tv.

As I understand it, in a few years we're getting all digital whether we like
it or not. Is the whole HDTV thing just a bill of goods we got sold/crammed
down our throats?





I noticed much the same thing, glad I'm not the only one! Especially
during moderate to fast pans I can notice the artifacts. After a few
minutes of watching it the wow effect had worn off and I didn't think it
was all that great, in fact I find my old 32" JVC easier on the eyes..

I agree and have postponed an HDTV purchase as a consequence. Nonetheless,
be aware that the sets in a store have the contrast pumped all the way up,
yielding an artificailly harsh picture display.


"HiC" wrote in message
ink.net...
Went into a local Circuit City and took a good long look at their HDTV
selections. They had several including 2 1080p sets that I was told were
set
up correctly and what I was seeing was as good as it gets. Everything HD
from the cams to the screen. Both the 1080p's were running some sort of
hard
drive unit, not off a broadcast.

I've been hearing how amazing HDTV is. Well....while there's a certain
"pow"
when you first see them, I get the sense it's due to some artifically
induced phenomena. The colors seem vivid, but it seems to me in an
enhanced - i.e. forced way. There seems to be an excessive "whiteness" to
the image that adds a certain kind of sparkle/sharpness, but again it
seems
artificial. The real world as viewed by eyeballs doesn't seem that "sharp"
or vivid. The demos that were showing were clearly intended to take
advantage of this, all these closeups of brightly colored flowers,
snowboarders on glaring snow etc. I don't believe a sky exists anywhere
the
shade of blue they were depicting in that demo.

I see all kinds of artifacts in the images. Yeah, okay, they're not meant
to
be viewed from 6 inches away. But when I back off to 8 - 10 feet, I still
see this odd graininess, especially when the image pans. Plus all these
other odd things that happen to the image. Overall I find it harder on my
eyes than a sharp picture on a good analog tv.

As I understand it, in a few years we're getting all digital whether we
like
it or not. Is the whole HDTV thing just a bill of goods we got
sold/crammed
down our throats?

In article . net,
says...
Went into a local Circuit City and took a good long look at their HDTV
selections. They had several including 2 1080p sets that I was told were set
up correctly and what I was seeing was as good as it gets. Everything HD
from the cams to the screen. Both the 1080p's were running some sort of hard
drive unit, not off a broadcast.

I've been hearing how amazing HDTV is. Well....while there's a certain "pow"
when you first see them, I get the sense it's due to some artifically
induced phenomena. The colors seem vivid, but it seems to me in an
enhanced - i.e. forced way. There seems to be an excessive "whiteness" to
the image that adds a certain kind of sparkle/sharpness, but again it seems
artificial. The real world as viewed by eyeballs doesn't seem that "sharp"
or vivid. The demos that were showing were clearly intended to take
advantage of this, all these closeups of brightly colored flowers,
snowboarders on glaring snow etc. I don't believe a sky exists anywhere the
shade of blue they were depicting in that demo.

I see all kinds of artifacts in the images. Yeah, okay, they're not meant to
be viewed from 6 inches away. But when I back off to 8 - 10 feet, I still
see this odd graininess, especially when the image pans. Plus all these
other odd things that happen to the image. Overall I find it harder on my
eyes than a sharp picture on a good analog tv.

As I understand it, in a few years we're getting all digital whether we like
it or not. Is the whole HDTV thing just a bill of goods we got sold/crammed
down our throats?






I seriously doubt that CC has any TVs, SD or HD set up "correctly". They
usually have the brightness cranked up to "grab you". Same goes for the
color most of the time. The blue sky is a tip off. My TV looks about as
close to the real color blue as I could hope for. But I have the color
turned down nearly all the way, unlike the way it's set in the store. On
a correctly set up TV sky blue looks sky blue, grass looks green, not
plastic plant green, faces look flesh toned, not like they have sunburn,
or are made out of putty.

I have NEVER seen a TV set up right at CC, BB or anyplace except one
local dealer who does custom installs. His prices are so insanely high,
that even with a "discount", I could buy the TV I bought someplace else,
another cheap 37" LCD TV, and an upconverting DVD player, and still had
some cash left.


If the demo is the same one shown at CCs around here, the demo itself
has the "odd graininess", it's NOT coming from the TV itself. There's
one demo shown at one of the places around here, I can't remember where,
of a football game, and there is all kinds of artifacting when the
camera pans. It's not from the TV, it's the source. It's visible on
every TV it is shown on, even in on an ED Plasma. They probably have the
sharpness turned up big time too.

The last question is just kind of bizarre. An HD TV bought today will
obviously pick up digital signals, since HD is digital. The only real
complaint I have about my TV is/was the price. But if it lasts 10 years,
that's a lot less than a buck a day, so I can live with it happily.


BDK

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, saxmaniac wrote:
Nonetheless,
be aware that the sets in a store have the contrast pumped all the way up,
yielding an artificailly harsh picture display.

That, more than anything else, is what you are seeing. The sets in the
store are invariably set in "vivid" mode, which has a very high white
level. Supposedly, the pretty (garish) colors sell more sets.

Anyone with any sense goes through a proper set adjustment once they get
the set at home. There are various DVDs available to help you do it (at
least do the basic stuff with color bars!). It's much more important with
a large screen HDTV than with a small standard definition TV. In modern
TVs, the factory settings in "standard" (NOT "vivid"!) mode are usually
pretty good, but are rarely exactly right.

If you have an installer do it for you, watch what they do. If they don't
put up some test patterns and hold up a blue filter to their eye, they're
not doing a proper set adjustment.

-- Mark --

http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.

"Mark Crispin" wrote in message da.com...
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, saxmaniac wrote:
Nonetheless,
be aware that the sets in a store have the contrast pumped all the way up,
yielding an artificailly harsh picture display.

That, more than anything else, is what you are seeing. The sets in the
store are invariably set in "vivid" mode, which has a very high white
level. Supposedly, the pretty (garish) colors sell more sets.

I love going into a TV store and turning down the contrast/color/etc
settings to proper levels, and just stand back and watch people start
to gather around it. But there's never been any accounting for taste,
and it's astonishing the number of people who think a TV image
which burns out their eyeballs with contrast and color saturation
qualifies as a "good picture".

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:42:53 GMT, "HiC" wrote:

I see all kinds of artifacts in the images. Yeah, okay, they're not meant to
be viewed from 6 inches away. But when I back off to 8 - 10 feet, I still
see this odd graininess, especially when the image pans.

Most likely a compression artifact in the signal source, i.e. a too
low bit rate was used.

If the original source was from a (feature) film, which may have been
upconverted from 24p to 1080i x 60 with 3:2 pulldown and then
converted to 1080p x 60 in the display, you may observe some jerkiness
when panned.

Paul

Maybe SED will improve things?
http://www.behardware.com/articles/5...-kind-sed.html

Mike



"HiC" wrote in message
ink.net...
Went into a local Circuit City and took a good long look at their HDTV
selections. They had several including 2 1080p sets that I was told were
set
up correctly and what I was seeing was as good as it gets. Everything HD
from the cams to the screen. Both the 1080p's were running some sort of
hard
drive unit, not off a broadcast.

I've been hearing how amazing HDTV is. Well....while there's a certain
"pow"
when you first see them, I get the sense it's due to some artifically
induced phenomena. The colors seem vivid, but it seems to me in an
enhanced - i.e. forced way. There seems to be an excessive "whiteness" to
the image that adds a certain kind of sparkle/sharpness, but again it
seems
artificial. The real world as viewed by eyeballs doesn't seem that "sharp"
or vivid. The demos that were showing were clearly intended to take
advantage of this, all these closeups of brightly colored flowers,
snowboarders on glaring snow etc. I don't believe a sky exists anywhere
the
shade of blue they were depicting in that demo.

I see all kinds of artifacts in the images. Yeah, okay, they're not meant
to
be viewed from 6 inches away. But when I back off to 8 - 10 feet, I still
see this odd graininess, especially when the image pans. Plus all these
other odd things that happen to the image. Overall I find it harder on my
eyes than a sharp picture on a good analog tv.

As I understand it, in a few years we're getting all digital whether we
like
it or not. Is the whole HDTV thing just a bill of goods we got
sold/crammed
down our throats?

HiC wrote:
Went into a local Circuit City and took a good long look at their HDTV
selections. They had several including 2 1080p sets that I was told
were set up correctly and what I was seeing was as good as it gets.
Everything HD from the cams to the screen. Both the 1080p's were
running some sort of hard drive unit, not off a broadcast.

As many have said, it isn't just the set that's off. If it's coming from a hard drive then it's likely that it's re-compressed at a bit rate around 12-15Mb/s, maybe even from an original off-air signal that was broadcast at 18Mb/s. When you consider that the prime source used maybe 400Mb/s, you can see why it might suffer.

If you'd seen original film transfers or studio-quality video on a decent monitor you'd know why HD is praised. But then, if you'd seen high-end SD in the same environment you would probably have thought you were seeing HD, so poor is the current delivery of TV to the home.

Unfortunately, what you saw _is_ as good as it gets for most people. Squeezing high-bitrate video down a soda straw delivery 'pipe' robs HD of what makes it shine. "Digital" in home TV terms means low-bitrate MPEG. Yeah, it's noise-free. It's also quality-free.

"Mike Alpha" wrote in message
...
Maybe SED will improve things?
http://www.behardware.com/articles/5...-kind-sed.html

Mike


Not much. The vendors will still not calibrate the sets properly in
production, there will still be compression and distribution artifacts, and
there will still be a tendency on the part of the mass market to make buying
decisions based on first impressions that confuse intensity with quality.

No one should make judgements on the quality of a display without at least
attempting to properly adjust it and viewing a variety of sources. Same for
HDTV or any other technology, in general.

Leonard


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