Home Theater "Junkyard Wars"

As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part. Onkyo has dumped a
large amount of their older mid-end receivers on the market, and
having been exposed to some of them (and also aware of their
reliability/reputation), it was where I focused my search. The search
was over in a couple days, and it settled on:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=101500

Why? First off was the price- MSRP (ha, ha, yes I know) of $999,
available everywhere for under $500... $289 was within the budget. Of
course the reputation and other factors were the ultimate decision
maker (I can easily spend less than $289 on other ****e floating about
the boom-box-theater scene). Quality of the amplification was key-
while no better or worse than lots in this market, Onkyo's reputation
of smooth, clean power output was a main swaying factor. Quite
honestly as well, it had what was needed, and potential for
upgradability speakerwise (i.e. rear center surround) provided
additional incentive.


Now on to speakers. This was perhaps where I should have started,
since it was ultimately the most difficult part to accomplish. My tact
was to see what was out there in used/demo stock, and assemble (i.e.
cobble) a decent 6 piece system (mains, center, POWERED sub, two rear
surrounds) using reputable names, without putting too much of a
bottleneck qualitywise on the head of the speakers. Bear in mind I now
had $211 to spend on this task.

It became clear in a hurry that I had bitten off more than I could
chew.

A typical candidate for the cobbling approach:

Atlantic Technology 254.1SR White, $104/pr.
http://www.soundcityoutlet.com/page....product_id=484

Great little surrounds... but I'm running out of money. I could never
match these with what I had left... even if I went back to the
"customer" and asked her to pony up $200 more... I would still be
short a sub. This same scenario played itself out again and again.
Unless I found an insane deal on something like an Atlantic Tech T70
system, or the equivalent Paradigm, etc. level- I was going to have to
swallow my pride and venture into the Vinyl/MDF carnival of horrors.

After psyching myself into going down the rabbit hole, the black box
bonanza became a might unsettling. They all looked like something I'd
buy out of the back of a white van, and buying sound unseen meant that
I was probably getting something that would mangle Jim Morrison into
sounding like White Van Morrison. But, here I was, $200 to spend, 6
speakers to puchase. Names like "BIC America", "KLH", "Altec Lansing",
"Cambridge Soundworks"... all caused my trash-radar to beep wildly.
But, I was slumming. The wedding ring was off, and I had my shirt half
unbuttoned, and it was time to get dirty. Here's where I ultimately
dove:

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...Surround+Sound

I can hear your gasps and cringes from here... and with good reason.
CV's approach to sound reproduction is similar to Arnold
Schwarzenegger's behavior on a first date: Sure they're subtle enough
when they're quiet, but soon it because obvious that they're both
obvious, moderately offensive, and heavy-handed. But, hey, at least
they've got muscle, right? That's precisely why I chose this speaker
"system" over the other MDF-clones... I'd rather start off someone
with accurate-enough reproduction at low volumes and
scary-peaky-offense at high power, as opposed to just-plain-suck at
all decibel levels. That, and, hey! It's under $200! After my
interconnects and other various miscellany, I'll be a tad over my $500
budget, but not by much.

What have I learned during this? Buying stuff sound-unseen off the net
is a real exercise in humility, not to mention a crap shoot, when a
budget is set so low. I'm going to be very interested in this, when I
install it and put it through its paces.

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here... and feel free to point out where I've gone horribly wrong, as
I'm sure many of you have similar excursions into the back-alleys of
low-priced home audio/theater. Cheers!

-Blipvert

Blipvert wrote:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here.

On one hand, given your budget, you way overspent on the receiver. Onecall
has a 65-Watt x 6 Onkyo on clearance for $150
(http://ww1.onecall.com/PID_20408.htm ) which would have left a lot more room
for reasonable speakers. I then would have looked for a $100 powered sub
(BestBuy has a KLH or a Sony for $100 and the $150 Radio Shack one goes on sale
for $75 and packs a decent punch), leaving $250 for the three best front
speakers I could find (Onecall also has NHT SuperZeroes for about $85 shipped,
they'd probably go down a bit), and pitch in $10 of my own money for a couple
of little Goodwill speakers to serve as rears. You *did* say Junkyard, and
this is the realm of B-stock, used stuff, and thrift stores.

On the other hand, you've probably done your friend a favor in the long run
as rather than having two major components that he'll want to upgrade shortly
he'll only have one. The higher-end Onkyo will meet his needs forever and the
next time he's got $400 burning a hole in his pocket he can upgrade the front
speakers to something that will make the whole system highly competetive -- and
the old C/Vs will probably still be fine as rears, and the extras will still be
worth a few bucks each to a college kid or as a writeoff to Goodwill.

JGM

Geez man, I think you went overboard spending the bulk of that moolah on
the receiver. I would have gone for one of those HTIB jobs, probably
from Yamaha.

--
"Get rid of the Range Rover. You are not responsible for patrolling
Australia's Dingo Barrier Fence, nor do you work the Savannah, capturing
and tagging wildebeests."
--Michael J. Nelson

Grand Inquisitor
http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost

Jesus, man, screw the $500 system, you write so well you should write a book
about searching for the right home theater and use the royalties to buy a
kick ass system for you and your buddy.

Doug

--
Why watch it when you can Replay it?
Replay ID 00004-54831-74727


"Blipvert" wrote in message
...
As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part. Onkyo has dumped a
large amount of their older mid-end receivers on the market, and
having been exposed to some of them (and also aware of their
reliability/reputation), it was where I focused my search. The search
was over in a couple days, and it settled on:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=101500

Why? First off was the price- MSRP (ha, ha, yes I know) of $999,
available everywhere for under $500... $289 was within the budget. Of
course the reputation and other factors were the ultimate decision
maker (I can easily spend less than $289 on other ****e floating about
the boom-box-theater scene). Quality of the amplification was key-
while no better or worse than lots in this market, Onkyo's reputation
of smooth, clean power output was a main swaying factor. Quite
honestly as well, it had what was needed, and potential for
upgradability speakerwise (i.e. rear center surround) provided
additional incentive.


Now on to speakers. This was perhaps where I should have started,
since it was ultimately the most difficult part to accomplish. My tact
was to see what was out there in used/demo stock, and assemble (i.e.
cobble) a decent 6 piece system (mains, center, POWERED sub, two rear
surrounds) using reputable names, without putting too much of a
bottleneck qualitywise on the head of the speakers. Bear in mind I now
had $211 to spend on this task.

It became clear in a hurry that I had bitten off more than I could
chew.

A typical candidate for the cobbling approach:

Atlantic Technology 254.1SR White, $104/pr.

http://www.soundcityoutlet.com/page....product_id=484

Great little surrounds... but I'm running out of money. I could never
match these with what I had left... even if I went back to the
"customer" and asked her to pony up $200 more... I would still be
short a sub. This same scenario played itself out again and again.
Unless I found an insane deal on something like an Atlantic Tech T70
system, or the equivalent Paradigm, etc. level- I was going to have to
swallow my pride and venture into the Vinyl/MDF carnival of horrors.

After psyching myself into going down the rabbit hole, the black box
bonanza became a might unsettling. They all looked like something I'd
buy out of the back of a white van, and buying sound unseen meant that
I was probably getting something that would mangle Jim Morrison into
sounding like White Van Morrison. But, here I was, $200 to spend, 6
speakers to puchase. Names like "BIC America", "KLH", "Altec Lansing",
"Cambridge Soundworks"... all caused my trash-radar to beep wildly.
But, I was slumming. The wedding ring was off, and I had my shirt half
unbuttoned, and it was time to get dirty. Here's where I ultimately
dove:

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...Surround+Sound

I can hear your gasps and cringes from here... and with good reason.
CV's approach to sound reproduction is similar to Arnold
Schwarzenegger's behavior on a first date: Sure they're subtle enough
when they're quiet, but soon it because obvious that they're both
obvious, moderately offensive, and heavy-handed. But, hey, at least
they've got muscle, right? That's precisely why I chose this speaker
"system" over the other MDF-clones... I'd rather start off someone
with accurate-enough reproduction at low volumes and
scary-peaky-offense at high power, as opposed to just-plain-suck at
all decibel levels. That, and, hey! It's under $200! After my
interconnects and other various miscellany, I'll be a tad over my $500
budget, but not by much.

What have I learned during this? Buying stuff sound-unseen off the net
is a real exercise in humility, not to mention a crap shoot, when a
budget is set so low. I'm going to be very interested in this, when I
install it and put it through its paces.

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here... and feel free to point out where I've gone horribly wrong, as
I'm sure many of you have similar excursions into the back-alleys of
low-priced home audio/theater. Cheers!

-Blipvert

The first thing you should learn is that it's not a good idea to pick
out equipment for someone else. If you're lucky, they'll love it and
give you some credit for having chosen it. If yoou're unlucky, they
won't like it, and will hold you responsible for wasting a lot of
their money.

The second thing is to remember that your taste isn't going to match
theirs. Certainly, you wouldn't be happy with a $600 system, so why
are you recommending same? They should be getting their info from
someone that has a $600 system and is happy with it.

Third, never recommend refurbished stuff.

When you give someone advise about what to buy, make sure Consumer
Reports also recommends it. Now, if they don't like it, both of you
can blame CR. At the very least, it should be a system similar to one
that CR recommends.

Cheers,

Norm Strong


"Blipvert" wrote in message
...
As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend
of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his
birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a
keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good
setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers
that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part. Onkyo has dumped
a
large amount of their older mid-end receivers on the market, and
having been exposed to some of them (and also aware of their
reliability/reputation), it was where I focused my search. The
search
was over in a couple days, and it settled on:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=101500

Why? First off was the price- MSRP (ha, ha, yes I know) of $999,
available everywhere for under $500... $289 was within the budget.
Of
course the reputation and other factors were the ultimate decision
maker (I can easily spend less than $289 on other ****e floating
about
the boom-box-theater scene). Quality of the amplification was key-
while no better or worse than lots in this market, Onkyo's
reputation
of smooth, clean power output was a main swaying factor. Quite
honestly as well, it had what was needed, and potential for
upgradability speakerwise (i.e. rear center surround) provided
additional incentive.


Now on to speakers. This was perhaps where I should have started,
since it was ultimately the most difficult part to accomplish. My
tact
was to see what was out there in used/demo stock, and assemble (i.e.
cobble) a decent 6 piece system (mains, center, POWERED sub, two
rear
surrounds) using reputable names, without putting too much of a
bottleneck qualitywise on the head of the speakers. Bear in mind I
now
had $211 to spend on this task.

It became clear in a hurry that I had bitten off more than I could
chew.

A typical candidate for the cobbling approach:

Atlantic Technology 254.1SR White, $104/pr.

http://www.soundcityoutlet.com/page....product_id=484

Great little surrounds... but I'm running out of money. I could
never
match these with what I had left... even if I went back to the
"customer" and asked her to pony up $200 more... I would still be
short a sub. This same scenario played itself out again and again.
Unless I found an insane deal on something like an Atlantic Tech T70
system, or the equivalent Paradigm, etc. level- I was going to have
to
swallow my pride and venture into the Vinyl/MDF carnival of horrors.

After psyching myself into going down the rabbit hole, the black box
bonanza became a might unsettling. They all looked like something
I'd
buy out of the back of a white van, and buying sound unseen meant
that
I was probably getting something that would mangle Jim Morrison into
sounding like White Van Morrison. But, here I was, $200 to spend, 6
speakers to puchase. Names like "BIC America", "KLH", "Altec
Lansing",
"Cambridge Soundworks"... all caused my trash-radar to beep wildly.
But, I was slumming. The wedding ring was off, and I had my shirt
half
unbuttoned, and it was time to get dirty. Here's where I ultimately
dove:

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...Surround+Sound

I can hear your gasps and cringes from here... and with good reason.
CV's approach to sound reproduction is similar to Arnold
Schwarzenegger's behavior on a first date: Sure they're subtle
enough
when they're quiet, but soon it because obvious that they're both
obvious, moderately offensive, and heavy-handed. But, hey, at least
they've got muscle, right? That's precisely why I chose this speaker
"system" over the other MDF-clones... I'd rather start off someone
with accurate-enough reproduction at low volumes and
scary-peaky-offense at high power, as opposed to just-plain-suck at
all decibel levels. That, and, hey! It's under $200! After my
interconnects and other various miscellany, I'll be a tad over my
$500
budget, but not by much.

What have I learned during this? Buying stuff sound-unseen off the
net
is a real exercise in humility, not to mention a crap shoot, when a
budget is set so low. I'm going to be very interested in this, when
I
install it and put it through its paces.

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here... and feel free to point out where I've gone horribly wrong,
as
I'm sure many of you have similar excursions into the back-alleys of
low-priced home audio/theater. Cheers!

-Blipvert

On 28 Oct 2003 00:21:34 GMT, (JGM) wrote:


On the other hand, you've probably done your friend a favor in the long run
as rather than having two major components that he'll want to upgrade shortly
he'll only have one. The higher-end Onkyo will meet his needs forever and the
next time he's got $400 burning a hole in his pocket he can upgrade the front
speakers to something that will make the whole system highly competetive -- and
the old C/Vs will probably still be fine as rears, and the extras will still be
worth a few bucks each to a college kid or as a writeoff to Goodwill.

JGM

This was very close to my original train of thought... I looked at the
TX-SR500 and balked because of the substantially lower power rating,
lack of OSD, less remote control intercompatibility, and perhaps the
most important difference, completely different amplifier circuitry.
The 600's heat sink is massive compared to the 500 (verified by
research visit to Circuit City)- which makes me feel better, if
nothing else.

I still haven't ruled out using the C/V surrounds, sub, and center and
upgrading the L/R mains with a gift influx of cash. The NHT isn't a
bad idea- and there happens to be a set (albeit in White) used in
Evanston (where this install will take place) he
http://www.audioconsultants.com/used.html .

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:59:08 GMT, normanstrong wrote:
When you give someone advise about what to buy, make sure Consumer
Reports also recommends it. Now, if they don't like it, both of you
can blame CR. At the very least, it should be a system similar to one
that CR recommends.

If you never buy equipment that hasn't been recommended by CR, you're
always going to have mass-produced, consumer-grade junk. Bad, bad
advice.

--
************************************************** **********************
* John Oliver http://www.john-oliver.net/ *
* "For the wages of spam is death!" http://www.spamcon.org/legalfund/ *
************************************************** **********************


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normanstrong wrote:

Third, never recommend refurbished stuff.

As long as it's beat on Norm day, I'm going to disagree with this, too. I've
found B-stock and refurbs to be a great way to stretch into a higher category
of quality than could otherwise be afforded. These units have typically been
given personal attention by a skilled technician (more so than one that just
"came off the line") and always come with an equivalent-to-new warranty. The
reliability curve says if it's going to fail, it'll fail sooner rather than
later.

Now, if you're talking about the *psychology* of advising friends while still
keeping them, I'd say never *tell* them it's B-stock, or used, or thrift store.
Just show up with the thing, tell them the list price and then tell them how
much they owe you. Of course, it helps to know the psychological profile of
your friend. Most people seeking this type of advice are going to be thrilled
with *anything* -- your job is to keep them from getting ripped off. Other
people are never going to be happy with anything -- your job there is to stay
the heck away!

JGM

On 28 Oct 2003 18:29:14 -0600, (John Oliver)
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:59:08 GMT, normanstrong wrote:
When you give someone advise about what to buy, make sure Consumer
Reports also recommends it. Now, if they don't like it, both of you
can blame CR. At the very least, it should be a system similar to one
that CR recommends.

If you never buy equipment that hasn't been recommended by CR, you're
always going to have mass-produced, consumer-grade junk. Bad, bad
advice.

CR is just that.. CONSUMER reports... and doesn't exactly represent
either the best, or the worst of the stuff available, merely the stuff
that's available in mass quantities to the general consumer. Case in
point were the reviews a few years back, where they raved over the "CR
Best Buy" Technics receivers. Technics?!

The reason why I went with the Onkyo head in the budget, was to
provide a base to expand from. The CV speakers will handle the power
it puts out, and while not sounding pure and beautiful, will probably
indeed put out adequate sound.... adequate enough to leave the
ultimate owner wanting more... and being able to add more with a
decent speaker purchase, as opposed to a complete junk-and-start-over.

If I was doing something like this on commission, or for an
acquaintance, I'd be a lot more likely to have my CYA mode enabled. As
it is, I've spent $500, and have something coming in that's workable.

Oddly enough, nobody replying to this thread (in this group or others)
has mentioned anything specific about the HTS-2 CV MDF speaker set. I
actually had a (free) CV center channel once upon a time, which, upon
dissection, revealed decent individual speakers, shoddy assembly and
super-cheap electronics. It sounded obvious, but, it wasn't
discernibly "bad". That being said, it WAS a center channel, and
responsible for a spectrum that most any reasonable cabineted 2 way
can reproduce.

"JGM" wrote in message
...
normanstrong wrote:

Third, never recommend refurbished stuff.

As long as it's beat on Norm day, I'm going to disagree with this,
too. I've
found B-stock and refurbs to be a great way to stretch into a higher
category
of quality than could otherwise be afforded. These units have
typically been
given personal attention by a skilled technician (more so than one
that just
"came off the line") and always come with an equivalent-to-new
warranty. The
reliability curve says if it's going to fail, it'll fail sooner
rather than
later.

I didn't say "never buy refurbished stuff", I said "never RECOMMEND
refurbished stuff."

Norm Strong