Drax (TOT)

Bill Wright wrote:

wrote in message
...
Bill Wright wrote:
What's more I'm largely expressing what people say to me over a cuppa.
I've
never known a period like this, in which ordinary reasonable good-hearted
people are so annoyed and worried about this issue. I've looked askance
over
my cup at several people recently who've looked bashful, and shamefully
whispered something really very fascist.

I'm sorry but that's the classic argument of many - the "I heard it at
the pub" anecdote. Without some real verifiable information of actual
opinions its so much hot air.

So what do you want me to do? Get sworn statements from everyone I have a
casual conversation with?

When you move about in the community as I do you start to get a feeling when
there's a general problem on people's minds.

Lots of people "move about in the community" and they all get
*different* feelings. To argue that your feeling is the right one
needs more evidence and reasoned argument.

--
Chris Green

John Cartmell wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
However I think that by "current events" you may actually mean the slant
put on news/events by our government and media. If all the hype about "the
war on terrorism" and "the immigration problem" wasn't so heavily
publicised I don't think people would be half so worried/paranoid.

Agreed.

We're actually better off and more comfortable (by a long way) than we were
in the 1950s, 1960s or whenever.

But in the 60s there was a *perception* that things were getting better.
Things were moving in the right direction. Except for the late 90s that hasn't
been the perception since then.

Yes, and the government were telling us "you've never had it so good",
I think an optimistic govenerment makes for an optimistic populace.

We're also just as safe, the chances of being blown up by a mad bomber (of
whatever persuasion) are still pretty insignificant, other ways of being
killed or killing ourselves are way more common.

We learnt to live with The Bomb. We learnt to live with the IRA. What we
*perceive* as the current threat is too close and too alien (ie alien in its
psychology). In many ways it's similar to the situation in Elizabethan/Stuart
England: the potential traitors, murderers and bombers are living amongst us
but have an alien ideal and are controlled by religious fanatics from abroad
searching for martyrdom.

So how do we set about persuading ourselves that the current 'threats'
aren't really so bad as they're made out to be?

--
Chris Green

Ivan wrote:
wrote:
Ivan wrote:

A logical progression of what is already happening, is that in 50
years' time there will hardly be a town or village which won't be
dominated by a mosque, and most of the important social and
political institutions of this country will have been largely
infiltrated adherents of the Islamic faith.

You know that is bull****, you spout it knowing that is so - why?


Try asking the same question of the daily growing band of
politicians, journalists, academics and so-called community leaders,
who are going even further by publicly stating that multiculturalism
has been, and will continue to be an unmitigated disaster for this
country.

What's that got to do with it?

Should we thus be knocking down all the churches belonging to the
quite small minority of active Christians in the country as well?
They don't have to, with Christianity in terminal decline in here in the UK,
churches are closing down anyway and are being sold off for anything from
housing development to temples of worship for other religions, remember
Islam 'is' the world's fastest growing religion.

On a global basis Christianity isn't doing badly. It's only in Europe
that it's in decline.

--
Chris Green

Bill Wright wrote:

wrote in message
...
Ivan wrote:

Try asking the same question of the daily growing band of politicians,
journalists, academics and so-called community leaders, who are going
even
further by publicly stating that multiculturalism has been, and will
continue to be an unmitigated disaster for this country.

What's that got to do with it?

Should we thus be knocking down all the churches belonging to the
quite small minority of active Christians in the country as well?

No because they live their lives as good citizens. They don't have priests
who advocate violence.

What about Ian Paisley and his kin? You can find nutters in any
group/religion.

--
Chris Green

wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:
As regarding 'jogging along together'. Well yes, I'd love it if we could all
be embraced by that woolly liberal phrase. But when we have groups of people
in which 25% say that the mass murders in London and NY were a good thing I

I thought it was 10% and I don't think they said it was a "good
thing", can you quote the actual place where that is from?

Here, download the original NOP report:
http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SU...20Download.pdf

It looks like 22%, rising to 31% of young Muslims.

--
Dave Farrance

Bill Wright wrote:
"JW" wrote in message
...

Bill Wright wrote:

I've defined them above. But as it happens they seem to be the cultures
that have values that are at odds with our own. They believe that
homosexuals should be executed, that female adulterers should be stoned
to death, that women are inferior to men, that no-one should be allowed
to question their religion. That sort of culture.

Bill

50 years ago, they would have fitted perfectly into British culture!
Cultural change is a generational process.


No, we always had an innate sense of fairness and justice. Cultural and
moral fashions change, but in this country we have a Christian heritage that
has given us a bedrock of sound values.

Bill



Would you say Muslims lack that sense, or sound values?

Much of the anger of the disaffected stems from a perceived
lack of fairness towards other Muslims, twisted into a sense
of persecution and victimhood. Maybe their problem is that
we don't live up to our values.

A generation or two ago, similar attitudes were used to
justify the class war, when that "innate sense" was applied
selectively. The resentments were exploited by
politicians both moderate and extreme. They have weakened
gradually over my lifetime, for fairly complex reasons
including, I'd suggest, greater general prosperity and a
more open society.

Politicians may be leaping off the multicultural bandwagon,
but any increase in intolerance might feed the resentments
and make matters worse. Despite our fears, we need to avoid
that road, and give time, and our basic values, a chance to
work.

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 12:14:49 GMT, Dave Farrance
wrote:

wrote:
|
|Bill Wright wrote:
| As regarding 'jogging along together'. Well yes, I'd love it if we could all
| be embraced by that woolly liberal phrase. But when we have groups of people
| in which 25% say that the mass murders in London and NY were a good thing I
|
|I thought it was 10% and I don't think they said it was a "good
|thing", can you quote the actual place where that is from?

Thanks for that link downloaded :-)
|
|Here, download the original NOP
actually GKF
| report:
|http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SU...20Download.pdf
|
|It looks like 22%, rising to 31% of young Muslims.

Perhaps worse P35 9% of all Muslims believe that it is "acceptable for
religious or political groups to use violence" I doubt that 1% of the
indigenous population would agree.

Also P47 55% of Muslims think that wives should obey their husbands, but
P45 56% believe that Islam does *not* treat women as second class citizens.
ROTFL

I would like to see the same questions asked of the indigenous population
for comparison.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...

"[email protected]" wrote in message
.uk...
You do know that a jumbo jet works out at about 70+mpg so I hope you have
4+ people in that car.
If you don't take the plane and save the carbon.

That's a disingenuous reply if ever I heard one. You deliberately ignore
the fact that people who go on holiday in planes travel thousands of
miles, whilst us motorcaravaners travel hundreds.


You said you drove instead of taking a plane.
Its not my fault if you said the wrong thing.

Dave Fawthrop wrote:
Also P47 55% of Muslims think that wives should obey their husbands, but
P45 56% believe that Islam does *not* treat women as second class citizens.
ROTFL

You need to be a bit mindful of cultural differences there. Do you obey
your boss at work? Does that make you a second class citizen? Moreover,
it's perfeclt reasonable to believe that wives should obey husbands and to
also believe that that does not make them second class citizens, Would
you expect your kids to obey you? What does that make them?

I would like to see the same questions asked of the indigenous population
for comparison.

30 years ago the same proportion of Anglo-saxon Britons might have
answered the same. I think you might be suprised at the number of people
who still believe it, even prople who profess to have an equal
marriage, for example, the man is often the dominant partner in the
relationship. That might be less overt than "expecting to be obeyed",
but it's nevertheless an unequal arrangement, and I'd bet that many
men expect that what they say goes.

--
Nobby Anderson

"Dave Farrance" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:
As regarding 'jogging along together'. Well yes, I'd love it if we could
all
be embraced by that woolly liberal phrase. But when we have groups of
people
in which 25% say that the mass murders in London and NY were a good
thing I

I thought it was 10% and I don't think they said it was a "good
thing", can you quote the actual place where that is from?

Here, download the original NOP report:
http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SU...20Download.pdf

It looks like 22%, rising to 31% of young Muslims.

My goodness we've got some work to do to get British values across to these
people. The big worry, of course, is that it can't be done.

Bill