AVSForum Misinformation

On AVSForum misinformation is not refuted because it will be deleted. So
I will do it here.

snipped

"As far as why the US chose its transmission concepts is because the US
was trying to lay down in concrete as soon as possible the total digital
specification (DTV as well as HDTV) so that implementation could get
underway as soon as possible. Europe didn't finalize its specification
until 2004/2005."

The US hasn't finalized 8-VSB yet. They are busy trying to fix it with
A-VSB, E-VSB and various patches to get a Single Frequency Network to
work. By the time they are done all legacy receivers will only be
capable of receiving 10% of what is being broadcast at most.


" The US chose 8VSB (better bit rate capabilities) instead of Europe's
COFDM (better urban reception) because of differences in needs."

The US chose 8-VSB to satisfy a back room deal meant to save Zenith
which is now owned by LG of Korea. COFDM has a higher bit rate than
8-VSB if set thus and at that higher bit rate, for example 19.76 Mbps,
it can be received mobile and portable as was demonstrated to Congress
in 2000. Its on the record. COFDM offers better reception across the
board not just in urban settings as Australia pointed out after
extensive public testing.

" The US chose MPEG2 for OTA HD transmissions because there wan't
anything else at the time while Europe initially decided to use MPEG2
for HD OTA reception but later decided that MPEG4 was also acceptable
making it uncertain as to whether any current HDTV with a built in tuner
will be able to receive any HD OTA transmissions. I still don't think
they are shippping any HDTVs in Europe that have built in tuners that
support MPEG4."

There was something else available in 2000 when Congress held hearings
on the subject of changing our modulation. There were other codecs
similar to MPEG4 like ON2's VP4 or VP5. In fact this technology was
offered to those who made the decision for MPEG2. MPEG2 was chosen on a
whim not because other possibilities were properly vetted.

"DVB may be slightly better than ATSC but the US HDTV implementation has
moved at a much better pace and less problematic than it has in Europe.
Only countries that did not go with DVB have widely available HDTV (US,
Canada, Japan, and South Korea)."

There it is, the genuflecting to 8-VSB, by saying that DVB might be a
bit better. It is orders of magnitude better. And for example even if
something is just a little bit better than a competing system and that
makes it successful, that itty bit is everything, the works. Say a
battleship is just a bit better than another one, it floats and the
other one sinks. Which would you prefer? They are virtually identical
but one has a little hole in it. 8-VSB has holes all over it.

Other countries that didn't go with DVB-T like Japan???? Japan went with
ISDB-T which is very close to DVB-T since they both rely on COFDM. COFDM
is the operative word here. Japan's modulation is even farther removed
from 8-VSB than DVB-T, it is more advanced. As is the Chinese DMB-T/H
just adopted.

Japan has sold 13 million OTA ISDB-T COFDM receivers, mostly integrated
HDTV sets, in about 3 years. With NO mandate. Both Japan and Australia
are far far ahead of the US in their digital transitions though they
started much later than we did. Both feature HD. Australia even mandates HD.

"Problematic" he says, talking of DTV transitions in the UK". The UK has
seen the most successful electronic venture ever in the world in its OTA
digital transition all without the need for a mandate. S. Korea is
having a major problem with their OTA HDTV transition. It seems their
public has problems with reception there to. It just ain't happening in
Korea. And Canada?? How much OTA HD broadcasting is going on there?


"ATSC is the broadcasting equivalent of HD-DVD which provides a very
good solution now and DVB is blue-ray a product that is supposed to be
technically superior but has not yet proven itself.
Last edited by mterzich : 09-01-06 at 02:33 PM. "

Pathetic!! Bad analogy. DVB-T has not only proven itself it is running
away from the field. Just recently Brazil chose to use ISDB-T. Again I
consider that Japan's ISDB-T as a copy of DVB-T to avoid royalty cost so
it is the same thing for these discussions. China's new modulation is
better than DVB-T but still relies on the basic OFDM of COFDM or in
China's case TD-OFDM.

A better analogy would be that 8-VSB is the equivalent of Morse code,
they are both digital and they are both essentially dead.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller wrote:
On AVSForum misinformation is not refuted because it will be deleted. So
I will do it here.

snipped

"As far as why the US chose its transmission concepts is because the US
was trying to lay down in concrete as soon as possible the total digital
specification (DTV as well as HDTV) so that implementation could get
underway as soon as possible. Europe didn't finalize its specification
until 2004/2005."

The US hasn't finalized 8-VSB yet. They are busy trying to fix it with
A-VSB, E-VSB and various patches to get a Single Frequency Network to
work. By the time they are done all legacy receivers will only be
capable of receiving 10% of what is being broadcast at most.

" The US chose 8VSB (better bit rate capabilities) instead of Europe's
COFDM (better urban reception) because of differences in needs."

The US chose 8-VSB to satisfy a back room deal meant to save Zenith
which is now owned by LG of Korea. COFDM has a higher bit rate than
8-VSB if set thus and at that higher bit rate, for example 19.76 Mbps,
it can be received mobile and portable as was demonstrated to Congress
in 2000. Its on the record. COFDM offers better reception across the
board not just in urban settings as Australia pointed out after
extensive public testing.

" The US chose MPEG2 for OTA HD transmissions because there wan't
anything else at the time while Europe initially decided to use MPEG2
for HD OTA reception but later decided that MPEG4 was also acceptable
making it uncertain as to whether any current HDTV with a built in tuner
will be able to receive any HD OTA transmissions. I still don't think
they are shippping any HDTVs in Europe that have built in tuners that
support MPEG4."

There was something else available in 2000 when Congress held hearings
on the subject of changing our modulation. There were other codecs
similar to MPEG4 like ON2's VP4 or VP5. In fact this technology was
offered to those who made the decision for MPEG2. MPEG2 was chosen on a
whim not because other possibilities were properly vetted.

"DVB may be slightly better than ATSC but the US HDTV implementation has
moved at a much better pace and less problematic than it has in Europe.
Only countries that did not go with DVB have widely available HDTV (US,
Canada, Japan, and South Korea)."

There it is, the genuflecting to 8-VSB, by saying that DVB might be a
bit better. It is orders of magnitude better. And for example even if
something is just a little bit better than a competing system and that
makes it successful, that itty bit is everything, the works. Say a
battleship is just a bit better than another one, it floats and the
other one sinks. Which would you prefer? They are virtually identical
but one has a little hole in it. 8-VSB has holes all over it.

Other countries that didn't go with DVB-T like Japan???? Japan went with
ISDB-T which is very close to DVB-T since they both rely on COFDM. COFDM
is the operative word here. Japan's modulation is even farther removed
from 8-VSB than DVB-T, it is more advanced. As is the Chinese DMB-T/H
just adopted.

Japan has sold 13 million OTA ISDB-T COFDM receivers, mostly integrated
HDTV sets, in about 3 years. With NO mandate. Both Japan and Australia
are far far ahead of the US in their digital transitions though they
started much later than we did. Both feature HD. Australia even mandates
HD.

"Problematic" he says, talking of DTV transitions in the UK". The UK has
seen the most successful electronic venture ever in the world in its OTA
digital transition all without the need for a mandate. S. Korea is
having a major problem with their OTA HDTV transition. It seems their
public has problems with reception there to. It just ain't happening in
Korea. And Canada?? How much OTA HD broadcasting is going on there?

"ATSC is the broadcasting equivalent of HD-DVD which provides a very
good solution now and DVB is blue-ray a product that is supposed to be
technically superior but has not yet proven itself.
Last edited by mterzich : 09-01-06 at 02:33 PM. "

Pathetic!! Bad analogy. DVB-T has not only proven itself it is running
away from the field. Just recently Brazil chose to use ISDB-T. Again I
consider that Japan's ISDB-T as a copy of DVB-T to avoid royalty cost so
it is the same thing for these discussions. China's new modulation is
better than DVB-T but still relies on the basic OFDM of COFDM or in
China's case TD-OFDM.

A better analogy would be that 8-VSB is the equivalent of Morse code,
they are both digital and they are both essentially dead.

Bob Miller


Whether or not what you say is true, IT DOES NOT MATTER! We in the USA use 8-VSB! WE DO NOT USE COFDM! That is all that matters!
Get the **** over it, Bob. Virtually no one but you cares about this. My God you are a jerk. Go away, go very far away!

Chip

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

"Bob Miller" wrote

... It just ain't happening in Korea. And Canada?? How much OTA HD
broadcasting is going on there?

Bob I explained to you the last time you posted this crap that the low
amount of OTA HD in Canada has to do with our geography and climate and
NOTHING to do with the choice of transmission scheme. Except for a couple of
very large cities (especially Toronto, with the CN Tower dominating the
skyline) OTA has had a poor history which is why it's losing out to
satellite and cable. We became tired of having signals spoiled by snow,
passing aircraft, summer storms and above all ice.

Those who object to paying for their TV tend to focus their attention not on
broadcast signals but on stealing satellite signals using FTA dishes.

Bob Miller wrote:
On AVSForum misinformation is not refuted because it will be deleted. So
I will do it here.

snipped

Bob Miller

Once again, bob proves just how pathetic he is. He can't respond on that
forum because he was thrown off it years ago for doing exactly what he
does here.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Dave Gower wrote:
"Bob Miller" wrote

... It just ain't happening in Korea. And Canada?? How much OTA HD
broadcasting is going on there?

Bob I explained to you the last time you posted this crap that the low
amount of OTA HD in Canada has to do with our geography and climate and
NOTHING to do with the choice of transmission scheme. Except for a couple of
very large cities (especially Toronto, with the CN Tower dominating the
skyline) OTA has had a poor history which is why it's losing out to
satellite and cable. We became tired of having signals spoiled by snow,
passing aircraft, summer storms and above all ice.

Those who object to paying for their TV tend to focus their attention not on
broadcast signals but on stealing satellite signals using FTA dishes.


All the more reason that Canada should have a decent modulation. OTA has
been "losing out" almost from the first days of OTA TV because of such
things as airplanes and storms, people wandering around near the set top
antenna and trees blowing in the wind.

Using a COFDM based modulation that is history and in most cases you can
use an indoor antenna.

OTA has a poor history everywhere in all countries but those where they
are now using COFDM based modulations are experiencing a rebirth of OTA
that is record breaking by any measure of consumer electronics. And OTA
is offering needed competition to cable and satellite in those countries.

When we were testing COFDM against 8-VSB from the CN tower in Toronto we
had a number of the biggest Canadian broadcasters tell us that they
would have already been on the air with COFDM if it had been allowed in
Canada.

Bob Miller

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
nk.net...
On AVSForum misinformation is not refuted because it will be deleted. So I
will do it here.

snipped

It doesn't sound like big problem...
Why don't you just ask your daughter to shill-post there for you again?

"Bob Miller" wrote

When we were testing COFDM against 8-VSB from the CN tower in Toronto we
had a number of the biggest Canadian broadcasters tell us that they would
have already been on the air with COFDM if it had been allowed in Canada.

Funny. There's not a peep of that on the Canadian forums I've read.

Dave Gower wrote:
"Bob Miller" wrote

When we were testing COFDM against 8-VSB from the CN tower in Toronto we
had a number of the biggest Canadian broadcasters tell us that they would
have already been on the air with COFDM if it had been allowed in Canada.

Funny. There's not a peep of that on the Canadian forums I've read.


Are there broadcasters on these Canadian forums? If so ask them.

Bob Miller

Without getting into personalities or character assassination, the
United States, Europe and the rest of the world should be using
compatible HD transmission standards. The world would be a better
place if there were not two TV standards, NTSC and PAL (I am ignoring
SECAM). Once a HD transmission protocol is in place, there is no
turning back for the country. Depending on the FCC to make the right
decision for consumers is delusional, the FCC is an extension of the
major networks except when it comes to Janet Jackson's exposed rack.

David wrote:
"Bob Miller" wrote in message
nk.net...
On AVSForum misinformation is not refuted because it will be deleted. So I
will do it here.

snipped

It doesn't sound like big problem...
Why don't you just ask your daughter to shill-post there for you again?

"gerry" wrote in message
ps.com...
Without getting into personalities or character assassination, the
United States, Europe and the rest of the world should be using
compatible HD transmission standards. The world would be a better
place if there were not two TV standards, NTSC and PAL (I am ignoring
SECAM). Once a HD transmission protocol is in place, there is no
turning back for the country. Depending on the FCC to make the right
decision for consumers is delusional, the FCC is an extension of the
major networks except when it comes to Janet Jackson's exposed rack.


The FCC [and the ATSC*] made the perfect decision in this case.

Had they chosen COFDM, we would now have zero or next-to-no OTA HDTV, and
slimy, offensive companies like Sinclair would be making millions with
mobile advertising.

Judging by the forums and articles to which I've posted about 50,000 links
over the years, developing OTA HDTV in other countries seems to be nothing
but a strucking fuggle.

We have it here in every city, coast-to-coast.


*The members of the ATSC/Grand Alliance we

-AT&T
-General Instrument
-North American Philips
-Massachusetts Institute of Technology
-Thomson Consumer Electronics
-David Sarnoff Research Center
-Viacel
-Zenith Electronics Corporation