LCD, DLP, Plasma -- cant they do blacks?

hello,

i am interesting in purchasing a HD tv for the primary purpose of
wathing movies. currently movies on DVD (netflix, etc), but eventually
HD discs as well. dont really care about broadcast tv. 300 channels of
crap.

anyway, im testing out some models (right now i have a 42" Samsung
DLP). however the common thing i see in them is -- they cant make
"black". they can make "darker", but its never the true black im used
to from CRTs.

this is likely because when a crt's proton gun isnt sending protons to
the glass tube, it remains off (true black). but in these new sets,
which are bulb-lit, they can evidently only attempt to mask the light
from certain pixel areas. this is imperfect and produces a luminscent
blue-black. i see this on computer LCDs as well, but their contrast
ratios are much less than the 3,000-8,000:1 ratios home theater LCD &
plasma.

anyway... can anyone help set my expectation -- can anything produce
actual or near-CRT blacks? or will i be disappointed w/ each technology
& brand, because none of them are as dark as a CRT?

also, im still looking at marketing material, but any idea what a
typical DLP contrast ratio is?


thanks!
matt

oh, and replace "proton" w/ "photon" or whatever it is that makes these
things work...


matt

Yes nothing is as black as a CRT. Also, contrast ratios that are reported
are based on different methods so you cannot use them to compare one
manufacturers to another.
Got to see in person and lighting levels in stores are too bright.

Plasmas should be darker then LCDs. I am not sure about DLPs.

wrote in message
ups.com...
hello,

i am interesting in purchasing a HD tv for the primary purpose of
wathing movies. currently movies on DVD (netflix, etc), but eventually
HD discs as well. dont really care about broadcast tv. 300 channels of
crap.

anyway, im testing out some models (right now i have a 42" Samsung
DLP). however the common thing i see in them is -- they cant make
"black". they can make "darker", but its never the true black im used
to from CRTs.

this is likely because when a crt's proton gun isnt sending protons to
the glass tube, it remains off (true black). but in these new sets,
which are bulb-lit, they can evidently only attempt to mask the light
from certain pixel areas. this is imperfect and produces a luminscent
blue-black. i see this on computer LCDs as well, but their contrast
ratios are much less than the 3,000-8,000:1 ratios home theater LCD &
plasma.

anyway... can anyone help set my expectation -- can anything produce
actual or near-CRT blacks? or will i be disappointed w/ each technology
& brand, because none of them are as dark as a CRT?

also, im still looking at marketing material, but any idea what a
typical DLP contrast ratio is?


thanks!
matt

In 2008, SED is coming out from Toshiba.

SED technology works much like a traditional CRT except instead of one
large electron gun firing at all the screen phosphors that light up to
create the image you see, SED has thousands of tiny electron guns known as
"emitters" for each phosphor sub-pixel. This may bode well for video
purists who feel that CRTs offer the best picture quality, bar none. One
prototype has even attained a contrast ratio of 100,000:1.

RobH wrote:
In 2008, SED is coming out from Toshiba.

SED technology works much like a traditional CRT except instead of one
large electron gun firing at all the screen phosphors that light up to
create the image you see, SED has thousands of tiny electron guns known as
"emitters" for each phosphor sub-pixel. This may bode well for video
purists who feel that CRTs offer the best picture quality, bar none. One
prototype has even attained a contrast ratio of 100,000:1.

Please remember that a 50:1 contrast ratio is all you need, if it is
linear. Take a look at some of Mitsubishi's best CRT projectors. That's
all they provided for a CR in a darkened room. The image quality was/is
spectacular.

Matthew

--
You can bet that a week after Daguerre took the first photograph,
vendors were selling feelthy pictures on the streets of Paris.

Thomas A. Horsley on alt.tv.tech.hdtv

wow, that sounds awesome. thats what im into -- true blacks due to lack
of phospor lumination. looks awesome. too bad its not out yet....

fyi, ive also heard of "diamond dust" display technology, which would
also be actual lumination.


thanks,
matt


RobH wrote:
In 2008, SED is coming out from Toshiba.

SED technology works much like a traditional CRT except instead of one
large electron gun firing at all the screen phosphors that light up to
create the image you see, SED has thousands of tiny electron guns known as
"emitters" for each phosphor sub-pixel. This may bode well for video
purists who feel that CRTs offer the best picture quality, bar none. One
prototype has even attained a contrast ratio of 100,000:1.

"RobH" wrote in message
...
In 2008, SED is coming out from Toshiba.

SED technology works much like a traditional CRT except instead of one
large electron gun firing at all the screen phosphors that light up to
create the image you see, SED has thousands of tiny electron guns known as
"emitters" for each phosphor sub-pixel. This may bode well for video
purists who feel that CRTs offer the best picture quality, bar none. One
prototype has even attained a contrast ratio of 100,000:1.

And it is all hype. the ratios quoted are gray to gray, not balc to black,
which means for watching movies the contrast ratio is useless.

There are many issues for SED to be addressed before it will be ready to
compete with current technologies.

Putting any hope or faith in SED would be foolish for at least 2 years after
market wide production begins.

Bobby

Rick wrote:
Yes nothing is as black as a CRT. Also, contrast ratios that are
reported
are based on different methods so you cannot use them to compare one

manufacturers to another.
Got to see in person and lighting levels in stores are too bright.

Plasmas should be darker then LCDs. I am not sure about DLPs.


When we got the DLP Christmas '03 I was very disappointed in the black
level performance. After going to work the next Monday and bemoaning
the blacks, I was all set to be unhappy - but in fact, I like it. When
Jay Leno came on with his almost black suit, I was unhappy - until I
noticed the shadows his arm was casting on his torso. I didn't THINK I
was crushing the blacks on the old set but...

The ambient light level will have a big impact on the perceived black
level. The black looks much better with some background lights on and
the same is true of a CRT. The apparent gamma changes with ambient as
well. Worst case viewing is a totally dark room.

SED will be neat if / when it shows up but I'm happy at present.

And you're right about contrast ratio numbers. If you can't duplicate a
measurement, it means essentially nothing.

GG

NoNoBadDog! wrote:
"RobH" wrote in message
...
In 2008, SED is coming out from Toshiba.

SED technology works much like a traditional CRT except instead of one
large electron gun firing at all the screen phosphors that light up to
create the image you see, SED has thousands of tiny electron guns known as
"emitters" for each phosphor sub-pixel. This may bode well for video
purists who feel that CRTs offer the best picture quality, bar none. One
prototype has even attained a contrast ratio of 100,000:1.

And it is all hype. the ratios quoted are gray to gray, not balc to black,
which means for watching movies the contrast ratio is useless.

There are many issues for SED to be addressed before it will be ready to
compete with current technologies.

Putting any hope or faith in SED would be foolish for at least 2 years after
market wide production begins.

Bobby


Could you elaborate on your "gray to gray, not balc to black" remark?
Don't understand your reference.

Bob Miller

G-squared wrote:
When we got the DLP Christmas '03 I was very disappointed in the black
level performance. After going to work the next Monday and bemoaning
the blacks, I was all set to be unhappy - but in fact, I like it. When

not following you. why were you disappointed on first viewing, but
then..not?

The ambient light level will have a big impact on the perceived black

good to know. i was in a dark room, as is customary when we watch
movies. i suppose i could try it w/ a light on. is this why philips
sells that rear "ambi-light" flat panel?

level. The black looks much better with some background lights on and
the same is true of a CRT.

....not sure about this. w/ my CRT i always watched movies in a darkened
room, and they were true black -- not electrons hitting the glass.
never noticed anything disappointing.


matt