over the air digital broadcast - don't waste your money yet

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:29:30 -0400, Alan Figgatt
wrote:

wrote:

oops you are correct
I meant Sanyo HT27546 - I had downloaded the pdf manual for the
DS24425 a while back.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...uct_id=4810689

I returned it last week primarily because I realized that a 16x9
aspect ratio TV is what I really want. I will probably wait to next
year for the 30" HDTVs to come down in price or least get the kinks out
of the manufacturing process.

Any other experiences out there with OTA digital broadcast versus
NTSC?

I get 17 stations OTA on my digital ATSC receiver. Several of them are
marginal with dropouts, but these are distant stations and are not of
much interest to me as they duplicate closer network stations. 16 of
these stations are digitally broadcasting on UHF channels and are at
distances of 16 to 53 miles. My setup is a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay
Bowtie antenna in my attic with a CM 7777 amplifier for the long RG-6
cable run.

Most of the digital channels are on UHF because the VHF channels are
in use with the analog broadcast. For example, the ABC station in
Washington, WJLA broadcasts the analog signal on Channel 7, but the
digital channel is on UHF 39. Can't broadcast digitally on 7 because it
would interfere with the analog signal. Embedded in the digital signal
is the PSIP which tells the ATSC tuner to map the displayed channel back
to 7. When the analog shutdown occurs in February, 2009 (assuming no
more delays), WJLA will turn off their analog signal and shift the
digital transmission to channel 7, freeing up channel 39.

When the analog shutdown occurs, UHF channels 52 to 69 will be vacated
for TV broadcasting and used for other purposes. This is the key driving
force behind the digital conversion.

However, many of the current low VHF stations - channels 2 to 6 - will
keep their digital broadcasts on UHF. The low VHF channels are much
lower in frequency than the upper VHF channels 7 to 13 and have turned
out to not work very well for digital transmissions because of problems
with electrical interference. The two low VHF Washington DC stations, 4
& 5, have already decided to stay in UHF for their digital broadcasts
after the shutdown.

So to get digital ATSC broadcasts, the key is a good UHF antenna for
most areas. If you want an antenna setup for 2009 and afterwards, then
an antenna setup for upper VHF and UHF is the way to go. To read up on
antennas, go to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html.
Look at the "It Doesn't work! Now What?" link for suggestions.

Based on what I have read from many people on avsforum.com, the
biggest problem with ATSC reception - provided the station is at full
power digitally as many are not - has been with people close in to the
broadcast towers. They have multi-path and/or too strong a signal
overloading the front end of their ATSC receiver. A common solution for
those who live close to the broadcast towers is add an attenuator to
damp down the signal. Way too many people buy these overpriced "HD"
antennas with built-in amplifiers. In many cases, the amplifier makes it
worse. Multipath is a more difficult problem, but the newer generations
of ATSC have gotten better at dealing with it.

Other useful links:
www.antennaweb.org - best starting point to find out what is in your
area, but is too conservative. For example, I get a number of stations
that don't show up on antennaweb for my address.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html - FCC database for all TV
stations. Enter call sign or city, select digital TV and get a detailed
info dump on any station. The location, height, licensed power of the
transmitter is provided. You can also find a map of the nominal
reception area. Have to read the stuff carefully, but useful for anyone
with a technical bent.

This is a rather long winded reply, but I hope it is of some use.

Alan F


I get 3 stations OTA and only one is as good as cable. I live in a
hilly area with brick buildings all around me. This is an a fairly
high populated area of western Ma.

Why is it so hard to believe that he just lives in an area that has
lousy reception as many people do?
Thumper

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 15:08:42 -0400, Thumper wrote:

Why is it so hard to believe that he just lives in an area that has
lousy reception as many people do?

Couldn't be because he's trying to use rabbit ears (without UHF?) could it.:-)

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

wrote:
wrote:

If you expect to receive over the air digital broadcast I would wait. I
purchased a Sanyo DS24425 SDTV. It worked well with the comcast cable
plugged in the "digital" coax port (about 10 channels) but my attempt
to receive over the air digital broadcast via antenna was fruitless.
The TV stations are probably using very low power for digital broadcast
(and probably will never put the money into this because of cable and
satellite). I couldn't even get the very nearby station which I can
receive the NTSC broadcast without an antenna and crystal clear with
simple rabbit ears.


I have the Samsung 2651D which has dual tuners and can get about 10
stations in HD. Funny though,
they seem to be PBS types but they come in beautifully. No, cbs, nbc,
abc or fox though.
I am using one of those radio shack indoor vertical antennas with
metal butterflys
going down it. I can switch easily between cable and over the air.

I have noticed that the commercial station treat the digital signal as a
a poor cousin. The public stations seem to be making the most of the
opportunity.

In article Thumper writes:

I get 3 stations OTA and only one is as good as cable. I live in a
hilly area with brick buildings all around me. This is an a fairly
high populated area of western Ma.

Why is it so hard to believe that he just lives in an area that has
lousy reception as many people do?

It is not hard to believe he lives in an area with lousy analog reception. I
get at least 15 analog stations, and similarly, only one really beats what one
would expect of cable quality. The others have weak/noisy, ghosty, soft images.

I get 18 digital stations (with the same antenna) (more, if you count the subchannels),
and a 19th that is on the edge, and drops out frequently.

The digital stations put in essentially perfect pictures (well, as good as they
transmit).

The digital produces much better signals, where the analog channels are just
barely watchable (and worse, some can be identified, but are not watchable).

Why is it so hard for people to believe that digital can be the solution for
lousy analogreception.


Alan

In article m Philip writes:
wrote:
I have the Samsung 2651D which has dual tuners and can get about 10
stations in HD. Funny though,
they seem to be PBS types but they come in beautifully. No, cbs, nbc,
abc or fox though.
I am using one of those radio shack indoor vertical antennas with
metal butterflys
going down it. I can switch easily between cable and over the air.

And, if you put it outside, in the clear, you would probably get more channels.
It has been said often, but http://www.antennaweb.org/ will tell you a lot.

I have noticed that the commercial station treat the digital signal as a
a poor cousin. The public stations seem to be making the most of the
opportunity.

Amazing. Here the main PBS station is wasting it by breaking up into
too many subchannels, so they all suffer.

Alan

I just picked up the best VHF/UHF ChannelMaster roof antenna, a line amp and
set it up with RG-11 quad shielded cable direct to my mother-in-law's analog
set. Once her local stations go full digital power later this summer I will
plug in a new digital set and let you know if she receives anything. Analog
reception is very difficult at her location, but we get about 5 stations,
none to perfection mind you.

Richard.

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:55:46 -0400, Richard wrote:

I just picked up the best VHF/UHF ChannelMaster roof antenna, a line amp and
set it up with RG-11 quad shielded cable direct to my mother-in-law's analog
set. Once her local stations go full digital power later this summer I will
plug in a new digital set and let you know if she receives anything. Analog
reception is very difficult at her location, but we get about 5 stations,
none to perfection mind you.

The best antenna in the world won't help a lot unless it's pointed in the
right unobstructed direction. just a reminder.:-)

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
http://mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html Usenet alt.video.ptv.mythtv
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
HD Tivo S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm

"Richard" wrote:

I just picked up the best VHF/UHF ChannelMaster roof antenna, a line amp and
set it up with RG-11 quad shielded cable direct to my mother-in-law's analog
set. Once her local stations go full digital power later this summer I will
plug in a new digital set and let you know if she receives anything. Analog
reception is very difficult at her location, but we get about 5 stations,
none to perfection mind you.

I believe they should all be at full power as of 7/1/06 unless they
have a waiver. But the penalty for noncompliance is loss of
interference protection, which probably doesn't scare them very much,
except maybe in a big city.

Del Mibbler

Del Mibbler wrote:
"Richard" wrote:


I just picked up the best VHF/UHF ChannelMaster roof antenna, a line amp and
set it up with RG-11 quad shielded cable direct to my mother-in-law's analog
set. Once her local stations go full digital power later this summer I will
plug in a new digital set and let you know if she receives anything. Analog
reception is very difficult at her location, but we get about 5 stations,
none to perfection mind you.


I believe they should all be at full power as of 7/1/06 unless they
have a waiver. But the penalty for noncompliance is loss of
interference protection, which probably doesn't scare them very much,
except maybe in a big city.

Del Mibbler

I gather there are a lot of stations still not at "full" power,
especially in the smaller markets, despite the deadline. Several weeks
ago, I was wondering how so many stations were still at low power and
found the compliance with the July 1 deadline guidelines on the FCC
website:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-06-1255A1.pdf - if
anyone really wants to read this.

Besides waivers, stations with construction permits (CP) for upgrading
the transmission facilities could slide pass the July 1 deadline until
the permit expired or they get a waiver. I suspect a lot of smaller
market or rural stations may have held off on getting CPs until close to
the deadline because they could use that to delay going full power a few
months.

The Washington DC UPN station, WDCA channel 20, had been at a low
power of 1.1 KW with a low height antenna for years. Few people could
get the station on the digital channel. On July 2, they finally went
full power followed by going on & off the air for a week for upgrade
work. Since last Tuesday, they have been at full power or close to it.
OTOH, the UPN affiliate in Baltimore, WUTB 24, is still at a low power
of all of ~ 550 Watts! They have a CP Mod in the FCC database and the
word is they won't upgrade until September, so they did not meet the
July 1 dealine.

It may be close to the end of this year before we get almost all the
primary stations across the US at full power digitally.

Alan F

"Alan Figgatt" wrote in message
...
wrote:

However, many of the current low VHF stations - channels 2 to 6 - will
keep their digital broadcasts on UHF. The low VHF channels are much
lower in frequency than the upper VHF channels 7 to 13 and have turned
out to not work very well for digital transmissions because of problems
with electrical interference. The two low VHF Washington DC stations, 4
& 5, have already decided to stay in UHF for their digital broadcasts
after the shutdown.

2 to 6 do not work very well for analog either.