1 in 6 people don't watch BBC TV

Java Jive wrote:
"DAB sounds worse than FM" wrote in message
...

I've got work to do, and I've spent too long arguing over something
that is hypothetical for the next 10 years, and neither you nor I
will change the other person's view, so it's all a bit of a waste of
time, innit.

If this had genuinely been your last post on the subject, I would have
accepted this, but the fact that you're still replying to others
suggests to me that you realise you've lost this particular exchange,
but are not man enough to admit it.


I tell you what, I've marked the posts as unread, and if I feel I've got
time over the next day or two I will try and reply to them.



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wrote:
Likewise, the licence fee is a terrible way to fund public service
television but it remains better than any of the alternatives.

snip

You've summarised my viewpoint precisely!

wrote:
dAB sounds worse than FM wrote:


Methinks that at this rate of decline, the BBC licence fee will
*definitely* be unsustainable by the next Charter renewal period in
10 years' time, because there will be far too many people that just
never watch the BBC, which I think is by far the strongest argument
against there being a universal licence fee/tax.

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others
that have been tried.
- Winston Churchill

Likewise, the licence fee is a terrible way to fund public service
television but it remains better than any of the alternatives. The
current licence fee costs less than the basic Sky or Cable
subscription yet gives me a great selection of advertising free
national television, radio channels plus a rather wonderful website.
At a cost of £2.52 a week or 36pence a day (ie less than the cost of
a daily newspaper).

Compared to other entertainment options I can't think of a bigger
bargain - a single song downloaded from iTunes costs 99p, my 'two dvds
at a time' DVD rental service costs £12 per month, the last live gig i
went to cost me £28. The last glossy magazine i bought cost £3.60.

There are lots of other taxes or charges that are ostensibly 'unfair'
- I currently pay BT £10 a month for a landline just so can run ADSL
over it, I pay council tax based on the value of my house rather than
the volume of local services the occupants use - but far more than the
others I'm happy with the result the licence fee gives.


The issue is not about people that use the BBC services a lot, it's about
people that have to pay for it but don't even use it or hardly use it and
don't get good value for money - it's good value for you, because they're
helping to pay your fair share! It's not surprising that high BBC users want
to keep the status quo so that Mr Northern Council Estate Dweller helps to
fund the viewing habits of Mr Home Counties Professional...


--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview & DAB prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.php
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"DAB sounds worse than FM" wrote in message
...
snip


I tell you what, I've marked the posts as unread, and if I feel
I've got
time over the next day or two I will try and reply to them.


Hmm, and what's the betting that Mr DAB hasn't kill-filed me
either...

Ok ...

"DAB sounds worse than FM" wrote in message
...

I tell you what, I've marked the posts as unread, and if I feel I've got
time over the next day or two I will try and reply to them.

In article ,
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:
John Cartmell wrote:
In article ,
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:
I've already told you that one is from the Open University (the
general science one, although it mainly consisted of engineering
courses),

Which courses? When you say 'General Science' course

I meant as in it was an unnamed degree - you just get a BSc, rather than,
say, BSc in Elec Engineering.

So it's quite recent. It used to be a BA whatever your course choices.

- do you mean the
Foundation Course (S100/S101...) and did you also take the Technology
Foundation Course (T100/T101...)? Which Engineering Courses did you
take?

BTW As D0100268 I'm a touch long in tooth OU-wise but I'm sure
aspects of my: A100
S100
DS261
SDT286
S225
A202
TM222
D303
A303
A402
and a few more whose numbers escape me,
must overlap yours. Maybe we even met at tutorials or summer schools?
Do offer more details.

No, I didn't do foundation courses, because I'd already completed an
undergraduate degree at a traditional university, but because I'd taken a
rather unconvential route though uni by changing course and university at
the end of 2nd year I wanted to learn some of the courses I missed in the
1st and 2nd years of the course I moved to (from mech eng to elec eng).

I only took 2nd year, 3rd year and post-grad courses.

Ones off the top of my head that I studied we

Digital Communications
T305
Radio-frequency engineering
?
Architectures of computing systems (post-grad course)
M881
Putting computer systems to work (basically C/C++ programming)
MT262
Logic Design
?
and maybe a couple of others that I can't remember.

Perhaps T209 or T293 in preparation for T305 - or even MST209

What was included in T305?

It's a poor do if you're forgetting so soon though - I'm remembering some of
mine back to 1975!

I only had to get, IIRC, 180 points, because I could claim transferred
credit because I'd already completed an MEng degree, so that saved me having
to do any 1st year courses.

That's taking the easy way. I have the equivalent of 600 points (mostly 3rd
and 4th level) under my belt + others studied 'for fun'.

I was impressed by the quality of all of the courses, because I'd expected
they wouldn't be as good as they were - I think it's mainly because they're
distance learning courses, so the course materials have to be good or the
tutors will get hassled every 5 minutes.

With the exception of the Introduction to Electronics course every OU course
I've encountered has been superb.

But the coursework and the exams were a lot easier than in traditional
uni's, although the grading scheme does take that into account, because
you need higher average marks to get a 1st, 2.1 etc than in traditional
uni's.

But you only took one third level course! In its first year of presentation
D303 was offered to students at a 'conventional' campus based university as
half a year's course and they complained about lack of support - whilst we OU
students were working full time and arranged amongst ourselves study groups
with a catchment area of 3 or 4 counties.
How easy it seems depends on how it's presented and your response as a
student. The learning is second to none.

I think the main difference in difficulty as far as engineering courses are
concerned is that 2nd and 3rd year exams at traditional uni's require you to
understand and use far more difficult maths than you're required to
understand at the OU. But as I say, the grading scheme is different to take
that into consideration.

That depends on the course. There are quite a range of Technology courses at
the OU - and TAD for instance had even less mathematics requirement! ;-)

--
John Cartmell [email protected] followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
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DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:

The issue is not about people that use the BBC services a lot, it's about
people that have to pay for it but don't even use it or hardly use it and
don't get good value for money - it's good value for you, because they're
helping to pay your fair share! It's not surprising that high BBC users want
to keep the status quo so that Mr Northern Council Estate Dweller helps to
fund the viewing habits of Mr Home Counties Professional...

That was my point about comparable spends - even if you're not a very
light BBC user it almost certainly still represents great value for
money. These peopel who 'hardly ever watch television' but listen to
Radio4 or Radio 1 (that picks up both ends of the spectrum doesn't it)
for hours each day. Personally i think 36p a day is good value just
for the radio.

The BBC enriches the culture of the UK. Without it we'd rapidly become
even more of an American outpost. The strength of UK television is one
of the factors that helps us punch above our weight globally. Looked
at in some ways sure, you can argue a flat tax is unfair but a dogmatic
approach to competition and fairness does not always get the best
solution.

Two examples that come immediately to mind are the Poll Tax (infinitely
fairer than Council tax but uncollectable), and directory enquiries
(where we've gone from a single number and a known cost to multiple
numbers, no idea of cost and all more expensive to the user).

There might be a few tweaks to the way the bbc works but mess too much
and you risk destroying something that is the envy of most of the
world.

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"Roderick Stewart" wrote in message
om...
snip

At least you are paying for a car tax disk in order to use a car.
You
don't have to buy a car tax disk in order to travel by bus. But you
do
have to buy a TV licence, which funds the BBC, even if you only
want to
watch other broadcasters' programmes.


One has to buy VED just to keep a vehicle on the public road,
irrespective of it's use.


But one doesn't need it if one drives only on private roads.

Regards,
Arfur

"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfur Million wrote:
"Stewart Smith" wrote in message
...
Arfur Million wrote:
Stewart Smith wrote:
Arfur Million wrote:
(Does a quick google). OK then, let me rephrase that. I notice that
you
even include a cookery programme for children - is this what the
licence fee is for?

If it's educational then yes, definitely. I think teaching kids
about
real food is an extremely laudable thing to do.


In that case, it should surely be funded out of the education budget,
ie from general taxation? (That's assuming that it's worthwhile doing
on TV in the first place.)


So should the license fee only fund programs that you personally
approve
of

Not at all - I am arguing against the very existence of the licence fee,
so
that viewers can vote with their feet. Why wouldn't you want a laudable
and
worthwhile educational programme funded from the education budget?

Because sticking it in a slot marked 'education' would nullify much of its
purpose and it would simply cost far more produced that way and have far
less
effect. The BBC has its purpose and it does it well.

So you keep asserting.

It does it far, far
better than anyone else and at a far lower cost than anyone might hope
for.

Strange how so many people are willing to pay money - on top of the licence
fee - for alternatives.

That doesn't mean that we are satisfied with it as it exists and there is
much
that can (and should) be done to improve it. What isn't appropriate is the
idea that you are pushing as that is one thing guaranteed to destroy the
whole
lot.

At the moment I believe that the BBC is sleepwalking into oblivion, and that
subscription could offer them a way out, if they are able to grasp the
opportunity.


or should it fund programs which meet the BBC's founding principle to
inform, educate and entertain?


Well, that could be (and is) used to justify virtually any programme that
they broadcast.

But some do it better than others. I simply listed a (long) list of
programmes
that did meet the principles and that I might want to watch/listen to
yesterday if only I had time. I pointed out that it was easy for anyone to
make such a long list - no matter (within reason) what their interests
were -
and that showed the value of the BBC.


And yet 1 in 6 people are unable to make any sort of a list that stretches
to 15 minutes viewing a week.

Regards,
Arfur

John Cartmell wrote:
In article ,
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:
John Cartmell wrote:
In article ,
DAB sounds worse than FM wrote:
I've already told you that one is from the Open University (the
general science one, although it mainly consisted of engineering
courses),

Which courses? When you say 'General Science' course

I meant as in it was an unnamed degree - you just get a BSc, rather
than, say, BSc in Elec Engineering.

So it's quite recent. It used to be a BA whatever your course choices.


Right.


- do you mean the
Foundation Course (S100/S101...) and did you also take the
Technology Foundation Course (T100/T101...)? Which Engineering
Courses did you take?

BTW As D0100268 I'm a touch long in tooth OU-wise but I'm sure
aspects of my: A100
S100
DS261
SDT286
S225
A202
TM222
D303
A303
A402
and a few more whose numbers escape me,
must overlap yours. Maybe we even met at tutorials or summer
schools? Do offer more details.

No, I didn't do foundation courses, because I'd already completed an
undergraduate degree at a traditional university, but because I'd
taken a rather unconvential route though uni by changing course and
university at the end of 2nd year I wanted to learn some of the
courses I missed in the 1st and 2nd years of the course I moved to
(from mech eng to elec eng).

I only took 2nd year, 3rd year and post-grad courses.

Ones off the top of my head that I studied we

Digital Communications
T305
Radio-frequency engineering
?


T327


Architectures of computing systems (post-grad course)
M881
Putting computer systems to work (basically C/C++ programming)
MT262
Logic Design
?


T323


and maybe a couple of others that I can't remember.

Perhaps T209 or T293 in preparation for T305 - or even MST209

What was included in T305?


All sorts of stuff - it was a 60 points course.


It's a poor do if you're forgetting so soon though - I'm remembering
some of mine back to 1975!


That list might have been all of them, because I only needed about 180
points.


I only had to get, IIRC, 180 points, because I could claim
transferred credit because I'd already completed an MEng degree, so
that saved me having to do any 1st year courses.

That's taking the easy way. I have the equivalent of 600 points
(mostly 3rd and 4th level) under my belt + others studied 'for fun'.


Yeah, but I'd just completed a 4-year full-time degree at a normal uni... I
do plan to study some more courses "for fun" once I've got all the
engineering stuff I want to study done and dusted - I think I might do a few
maths, physics and astronomy courses.


I was impressed by the quality of all of the courses, because I'd
expected they wouldn't be as good as they were - I think it's mainly
because they're distance learning courses, so the course materials
have to be good or the tutors will get hassled every 5 minutes.

With the exception of the Introduction to Electronics course every OU
course I've encountered has been superb.


Yes, they are very good, and highly recommended.


But the coursework and the exams were a lot easier than in
traditional uni's, although the grading scheme does take that into
account, because
you need higher average marks to get a 1st, 2.1 etc than in
traditional uni's.

But you only took one third level course!


Architectures of Computing Systems was a post-grad course, and Digital
Comms, RF engineering and Logic Design were all 3rd year courses. The only
2nd year course I can remember was MT262.


In its first year of
presentation D303 was offered to students at a 'conventional' campus
based university as half a year's course and they complained about
lack of support - whilst we OU students were working full time and
arranged amongst ourselves study groups with a catchment area of 3 or
4 counties.
How easy it seems depends on how it's presented and your response as a
student.


I probably found it easy because I'd already just done 5 years of full-time
uni education (foundation course + 4 year degree) before I started the OU
course, plus the maths was easier than at the traditional uni.


The learning is second to none.


I wouldn't agree it's second to none. It's *very* different to doing it
full-time at a university. At uni you do a lot of practical work, they pile
on the coursework at times, you do quite a few big projects, courses are
nowhere near as self-contained as OU courses are, so you have to trudge to
the library all the time, search through an endless number of books till you
find what you're looking for (the Internet wasn't very good for finding info
then...), and the degree course is designed to give you the breadth coverage
of information that the department thinks you ought to have before you're
unleased into industry. That last point will have improved at the OU with
the introduction of named degrees, but I doubt OU graduates would have the
same breadth of knowledge as someone from a traditional uni taking the same
named degree - OU courses are bigger, because a 30 point course is a
quartere of a year's study, whereas at a normal uni we took about 10-15
courses in 1st and 2nd years and a few less in 3rd and 4th years. And we did
things like business and management courses even though we were doing an
engineering degree, because the department deemed it necessary to know about
these things, whereas I don't think a named engineering degree at the OU
would get you doing things like that.


I think the main difference in difficulty as far as engineering
courses are concerned is that 2nd and 3rd year exams at traditional
uni's require you to understand and use far more difficult maths
than you're required to understand at the OU. But as I say, the
grading scheme is different to take that into consideration.

That depends on the course. There are quite a range of Technology
courses at the OU - and TAD for instance had even less mathematics
requirement! ;-)


The RF Engineering course was the most mathematical of all the OU courses I
did, but the maths was tame compared to what we got at normal uni. It's
mainly down to the differences in pre-requisites, because you're expected to
have an A-level or equivalent in maths to get on an engineering degree, and
then we did 3 more engineering maths courses in 1st and 2nd years, which is
to get you up to the required level to throw some nasty maths problems at
you in exams at the end of 2nd year. The OU just doesn't have anything like
the same kind of pre-requisites, so they can't make the 2nd and 3rd year
exams as difficult.


--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview & DAB prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.php
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