On the topic of UPS and power conditioning

"Dave Gower" wrote in message
...

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote

It is NOT TRUE that these lamps require fan operation for cool down. I
have asked this question of every major vendor for which we are selling
and servicing these products and the answer is always the same. The cool
down cycle with the fan is to allow for a quicker restart availability.

Strange. My JVC owner's manual specifically warns of reduced lamp life
with improper shutdowns. It says nothing about hot restarts.

Perhaps JVC does not have thermal protection that prevents a hot restart.
Perhaps JVC has a different view than Sony, Panasonic, Yamaha, Runco,
Mitsubishi, and Marantz tech reps. Perhaps the guys that write the owners
manuals understand about as much about the products as the typical sales rep
or trainer. I have specifically addressed the issue with the manufacturers
listed aboveand they all have repeatedly said the same thing. I will send
emails to Osram, Philips, and Ushio and see what their views on the matter
might be. I'll post the responses, if I get any.

Leonard

These bulbs require a cool down cycle via an internal fan that runs for a
while after the TV is turned off.

The cool down cycle with the fan is to allow for a quicker restart
availability. All current models that I am awasre of will not restart a
hot lamp. You CAN damage a lamp with a hot restart

Are we not saying the same thing. For whatever reason necessary to extend
bulb life there is a cool down fan.

Howard

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Howard" wrote in message
...
Home entertainment systems, including projection TV's often run off of a
very hot, hi intensity bulb used for the projection of the picture. These
bulbs require a cool down cycle via an internal fan that runs for a while
after the TV is turned off. Power would be required to run that fan. In
the event of an outage, the TV can be turned off and the bulb can be
properly cooled down. Bulbs can cost a few hundred dollars to replace. A
UPS/Surge protector can be good insurance.
Howard

It is NOT TRUE that these lamps require fan operation for cool down. I
have asked this question of every major vendor for which we are selling
and servicing these products and the answer is always the same. The cool
down cycle with the fan is to allow for a quicker restart availability.
All current models that I am awasre of will not restart a hot lamp. You
CAN damage a lamp with a hot restart, and they are aged faster with more
frequent restarts. The only benefits to a UPS are avoiding the restart
at all and the convenience of not having to restart the system. A good
surge suppressor and good grounding is all that is needed to protect a
system. Some units don't like running on a UPS and will shut down if the
output is not close to the sine wave that they equipment was designed to
operate with.

Leonard

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote

...I will send emails to Osram, Philips, and Ushio and see what their views
on the matter might be. I'll post the responses, if I get any.

That might be very interesting. Actually, when you and others say that a
slow cool-down without a fan is not harmful to a hot bulb, indeed may
actually be less stressful than a quicker cool-down with a fan, it makes
sense to me, and makes me wonder about the content of my owner's manual. I
just wish there was more hard technical data on this, and I suspect that
part of the reason there isn't is that TV makers are trying to duck the
issue while the industry looks for a better lighting technology. If I was a
TV maker exec I'd probably feel trapped between angry consumers and a bulb
supply I couldn't really control, so I might be trying to duck the issue in
that way too.

O.K. after re-reading my origional post I can see that my question sounded
more like " Why can't someone make a good backup unit?" However, my intended
question was; why do they make power conditioners that claim to remove EMI,
RF, static, etc. through fancy sounding filter circuits and are supposed to
help provide a cleaner TV picture and cleaner sound when (if I under stand
UPS's correctly) a UPS will do that and provide backup as well. Maybe I
don't understand the smaller UPS systems. I know the large $40,000 to
$100,000 units that we used to install would provide VERY clean power at the
output regardless of how crappy and dirty the input AC was. Protection was
great too, lightning outside killed the ac and did some damage to electronic
gadgets throughout the neighborhood but was unable to affect anything in the
server/telephone room. If the small consumer UPS's opperate the same way as
the big ones then why are the power conditioners like the Monster Cable Pro
5100 even around for ~$800 when a $300 UPS can do as much and more? What is
the advantage of a conditioner over a UPS? Do they really provide cleaner
power than a good UPS? Why would someone buy one?
P.S. as far as all the replies - interesting debate. I often wondered about
the cool down period for the lamp. A little off subject but, worth reading
non-the-less.
Thanks

"Redneck" wrote in message
...

O.K. after re-reading my origional post I can see that my question sounded
more like " Why can't someone make a good backup unit?" However, my
intended question was; why do they make power conditioners that claim to
remove EMI, RF, static, etc. through fancy sounding filter circuits and
are supposed to help provide a cleaner TV picture and cleaner sound when
(if I under stand UPS's correctly) a UPS will do that and provide backup
as well. Maybe I don't understand the smaller UPS systems. I know the
large $40,000 to $100,000 units that we used to install would provide VERY
clean power at the output regardless of how crappy and dirty the input AC
was. Protection was great too, lightning outside killed the ac and did
some damage to electronic gadgets throughout the neighborhood but was
unable to affect anything in the server/telephone room. If the small
consumer UPS's opperate the same way as the big ones then why are the
power conditioners like the Monster Cable Pro 5100 even around for ~$800
when a $300 UPS can do as much and more? What is the advantage of a
conditioner over a UPS? Do they really provide cleaner power than a good
UPS? Why would someone buy one?
P.S. as far as all the replies - interesting debate. I often wondered
about the cool down period for the lamp. A little off subject but, worth
reading non-the-less.
Thanks

This is like asking why they make both cars and buses when they make a space
shuttle, which can carry a lot and go fast. Consumer UPS units may or may
not have adequate surge protection, may or may not have significant
filtering, and may or may not have clean output that closely approximates
the power system. OTOH, expensive power conditioners may be good at both
filtering and protection, may lack some protections, and are generally
marketed to solve a problem that does not exist for most consumers. You
want a general answer to a complex market with every conceivable combination
of capabilities in the products, marketed based on misconceptions and fears.
Sorry, but the real answer is, as usual, is that you have to look at what
you have, determine what you need, and search out the best fit for what is
on the market. For most people that means a decent, but inexpensive surge
suppressor that covers all incoming lines. Espensive filtering is usually
of little or no benefit in most systems. UPSs are a convenience, but offer
little protection that you can't get for a better value in a cheaper SS and
may cause problems with some units if they don't produce a clean output.

Some may need more filtering. Some may want a UPS if there are frequent
outages. You have to evalutate the system and determine your needs. The
bottom line on power conditioners is that if you don't perceive a problem
with noise to start with, any benefits are likely to be placebo or
expectation derived. The bottom line with UPS systems is that they are not
necessarily the best protection for your system and can create problems.
The only sure thing is that everything has to have good system grounding to
work best, so no matter what you buy, verify the installation of your source
signals into the home was done correctly and that your a.c. system ground is
solid and clean.

Leonard

Leonard,

Thanks for your answer


"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in message
news[email protected]

"Redneck" wrote in message
...

O.K. after re-reading my origional post I can see that my question
sounded more like " Why can't someone make a good backup unit?" However,
my intended question was; why do they make power conditioners that claim
to remove EMI, RF, static, etc. through fancy sounding filter circuits
and are supposed to help provide a cleaner TV picture and cleaner sound
when (if I under stand UPS's correctly) a UPS will do that and provide
backup as well. Maybe I don't understand the smaller UPS systems. I know
the large $40,000 to $100,000 units that we used to install would provide
VERY clean power at the output regardless of how crappy and dirty the
input AC was. Protection was great too, lightning outside killed the ac
and did some damage to electronic gadgets throughout the neighborhood but
was unable to affect anything in the server/telephone room. If the small
consumer UPS's opperate the same way as the big ones then why are the
power conditioners like the Monster Cable Pro 5100 even around for ~$800
when a $300 UPS can do as much and more? What is the advantage of a
conditioner over a UPS? Do they really provide cleaner power than a good
UPS? Why would someone buy one?
P.S. as far as all the replies - interesting debate. I often wondered
about the cool down period for the lamp. A little off subject but, worth
reading non-the-less.
Thanks

This is like asking why they make both cars and buses when they make a
space shuttle, which can carry a lot and go fast. Consumer UPS units may
or may not have adequate surge protection, may or may not have significant
filtering, and may or may not have clean output that closely approximates
the power system. OTOH, expensive power conditioners may be good at both
filtering and protection, may lack some protections, and are generally
marketed to solve a problem that does not exist for most consumers. You
want a general answer to a complex market with every conceivable
combination of capabilities in the products, marketed based on
misconceptions and fears. Sorry, but the real answer is, as usual, is that
you have to look at what you have, determine what you need, and search out
the best fit for what is on the market. For most people that means a
decent, but inexpensive surge suppressor that covers all incoming lines.
Espensive filtering is usually of little or no benefit in most systems.
UPSs are a convenience, but offer little protection that you can't get for
a better value in a cheaper SS and may cause problems with some units if
they don't produce a clean output.

Some may need more filtering. Some may want a UPS if there are frequent
outages. You have to evalutate the system and determine your needs. The
bottom line on power conditioners is that if you don't perceive a problem
with noise to start with, any benefits are likely to be placebo or
expectation derived. The bottom line with UPS systems is that they are
not necessarily the best protection for your system and can create
problems. The only sure thing is that everything has to have good system
grounding to work best, so no matter what you buy, verify the installation
of your source signals into the home was done correctly and that your a.c.
system ground is solid and clean.

Leonard

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Dave Gower" wrote in message
...

"Leonard Caillouet" wrote

It is NOT TRUE that these lamps require fan operation for cool down. I
have asked this question of every major vendor for which we are selling
and servicing these products and the answer is always the same. The
cool down cycle with the fan is to allow for a quicker restart
availability.

Strange. My JVC owner's manual specifically warns of reduced lamp life
with improper shutdowns. It says nothing about hot restarts.

Perhaps JVC does not have thermal protection that prevents a hot restart.
Perhaps JVC has a different view than Sony, Panasonic, Yamaha, Runco,
Mitsubishi, and Marantz tech reps. Perhaps the guys that write the owners
manuals understand about as much about the products as the typical sales
rep or trainer. I have specifically addressed the issue with the
manufacturers listed aboveand they all have repeatedly said the same
thing. I will send emails to Osram, Philips, and Ushio and see what their
views on the matter might be. I'll post the responses, if I get any.

Leonard

I sent requests for opinions on the cool down issue to the three lamp
vendors that I listed above. So far, I have received info from only Osram.
They inform me that there may be reason for a cooldown fan, depending on the
specific application, that goes beyond the restart issue. When the lamp
supply is disrupted, there may be a short term increase in temperature in
the lamp due to "thermal lag" if the fan is shut down at the same time. The
significance of this is expected to vary with a number of variables, such as
the available air volume, the temperature that the lamp is running normally,
how close to the drive limits the manufacturer runs the lamp, etc. In more
conservative applications it is likely less of an issue, in designs that are
using the lamp closer to its limits, it might be of concern.

The bottom line view of the tech rep that I communicated with was that it
should not be a matter of concern if outages are rare, but it would make
sense to have a UPS in locations that see lots of power interuptions. Also,
it may be more significant in projectors as opposed to RPTV, as the lamps
may be run harder with less effective cooling and are often higher power to
start with.

I suspect that JVC is just being very conservative with their note in the
owners manual. Perhaps they are running the lamps closer to their limits,
but I suspect that they are more similar to other brands than different in
this regard. We have not seen lamp life as a significant issue and have
been selling projectors and RPTV using them for a number of years. Most
systems have had lamp life in in the ballpark of the manufacturers
expectations. Some have been much longer, some have been much shorter. We
typically do not use UPS on our systems, but do use mostly Panamax surge
suppressors. We have a higher incidence of lightning here in north central
Florida than most areas of the US. Some areas have more frequent outages.
For those I would recommend a UPS with pure sine wave output and similar
protection to the surge suppressors that we normally use, including
protecting all incoming signal lines in the one device.

Leonard