TV switchover fiasco

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:57:06 +0100, "Ivan"
wrote:



| As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have
| 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from
| maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why
| people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you?

Does anyone have a list of boxes which *are* or *are not* 8k compatible?
or a way of testing boxes?


--
Dave F

Ivan wrote:
That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod
digital and go back to analouge.

iirc, the ofcom consultation document was asking whether they should
switch to 8k as soon as analogue is switched off, so there won't be any
analogue to go back to.

As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have
8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from
maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why
people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you?

One of the main criticisms of the current DTT arrangement is that it
doesn't work well with portable TVs and set-top aerials. 8k should help
quite a bit with this, so I can see it being a real success.

"Dave Fawthrop" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:57:06 +0100, "Ivan"
wrote:



| As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably
have
| 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart
from
| maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why
| people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you?

Does anyone have a list of boxes which *are* or *are not* 8k compatible?
or a way of testing boxes?


I don't really know Dave, but from everything I've been able to ascertain
over the last few years on this newsgroup and others from people a lot more
knowledgeable on this subject than myself, it would appear that shortly
after the initial introduction of On-digital in the late Nineties, 8K
chipsets became readily available and were fitted as standard in later
receivers.

If this is correct then one must assume that by the time Freeview took over
that out of the existing 1 million On-digital subscribers, many will have
dumped their receivers and switched to Sky, a sizeable chunk of the
remaining ones will have been 8Kcompatible anyway and many others will have
upgraded to more up-to-date Freeview receivers.

So despite what the article says (around a million people losing reception)
I find it hard to accept that this is true, especially as I don't think that
there are 'any' Freeview receiver's that were fitted with 2K chipsets...
unless someone out there knows different and can enlighten us with some more
details.


--
Dave F

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:46:34 GMT, Kev wrote:

Ad said the following on 2005-03-30 18:40:
Ivan wrote:
That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod
digital and go back to analouge.
I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom
not to change the system when it likes?

It's ITV Digitals fault. 8K transmission falls within the DVB-T
standard, but On digital rushed to market with boxes that arn't fully
complient with the specs.

IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv
digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station
is turned off.

You seem to be forgetting that ONdigital was a subsidiary company that
went into receivership which means that legally ITV plc have no
liability for its obligations.

Scott

Ivan wrote:
"Ad" wrote in message
...
Ivan wrote:
I found this snippet in this week's ERT, personally I don't think
that there is anywhere near that amount of early receiver's still
in use, but let's hope that progress for the overwhelming majority
won't be held up by a vociferous few.

29 March 2005 TV switchover fiasco

GOVERNMENT regulator Ofcom is backing a change to the Freeview TV
signal that will render a million set-top boxes obsolete.

The switch from the 2k to 8k transmission standard will also
adversely affect 75,000 integrated digital TVs (IDTV).

The proposed modification would provide the UK with a more reliable
digital terrestrial TV (DTT) system but because many older ITV
Digital and Freeview receivers are incapable of handling the 8k
carrier system they will stop working if the change is made.



That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say
sod digital and go back to analouge.
I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut
Ofcom not to change the system when it likes?

As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's
probably have 8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any
difference (apart from maybe improved reception for lots of people)
then I can't really see why people would be turning away from
Freeview 'en mass' can you?


Not to mention the fact that 8K allows national SFNs, which should allow
us to receive far more multiplexes than we can currently.


--
Steve - www.digitalradiotech.co.uk - Digital Radio News & Info

Find the cheapest Freeview, DAB & MP3 Player Prices:
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/fr..._receivers.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/da...tal_radios.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...rs_1GB-5GB.htm
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/mp...e_capacity.htm

Ivan wrote:



As far as I know 2K chipsets only affected early On-digital boxes, also
after ITV digital folded a large number of subscribers 'won' their receivers
anyway.

If a tiny handful of people are still using slow early generation receivers
( from what I can gather later On-digital boxes were equipped for use with 8
K) and have owned them for more than five years, then surely they've had
their money's worth?

Especially when one considers that for the cost of a single TV licence, it's
now possible to purchase a couple of good quality Freeview receiver's!



So these people can forget about paying their license for 12 months, so
they can get a couple of boxes. I do not think the BBc will take that
excuse somehow.

Only a years T.V license, that is in total over £200, that is a lot of
money for asome people.

Kev wrote:

It's ITV Digitals fault. 8K transmission falls within the DVB-T
standard, but On digital rushed to market with boxes that arn't fully
complient with the specs.

You can also blame the government and they gave the permission for it to
go though.


IMHO ITV PLC should be responsable for replacing all 2K (on digital/itv
digital branded) only boxes still in use when the first analogue station
is turned off.



ITv can only just afford to keep itself going.

Ivan wrote:


That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod
digital and go back to analouge.
I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom
not to change the system when it likes?


As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably have
8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart from

That is just guess work, a lot of people may still have the older
Ondigital boxes even when/if the analogue is switched off. what about
the first no Ondigital set top box, the small Pace, can that cope with 8K?

maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why
people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you?

That depends if people can trust Ofcom and the government and how often
is the goal post going to be moved.

Look at it this way, have had analogue T.v for years, the only major
change was from VHF to UHF, then we went for years with the same system,
ok, so we had a couple more channels, but my old 25 years old Fergi that
I got up here will still work with the analogue system, I got a 30 years
old Black and white portable, that will also work with the analogue system.

Now if Ofcom is going to change the system every 5 to 10 years, do you
not think people will get a bit ****ed off?

What about people who spent a fair bit of money on Integrated digital
T.vs, how are they going to feel when they find out that they will not
be able to use it? About time this country made a standard and stayed
with it.
I doubt very much if changing to 8K will make any difference to quality,
unless the bit rates are increased.

My faith in this government, Ofcom and our digital t.v system have
decreased.

Ad wrote:
Now if Ofcom is going to change the system every 5 to 10 years, do you
not think people will get a bit ****ed off?

The system needs to change in several ways. For example, MPEG2 is
outdated now, more efficient compression schemes such as H264 could be
used. The key is to have receivers/decoders that are either software
upgradeable or cheap enough to be effectively disposable. The
receiver/decoder should not be integrated into the display. Display
devices are expensive items that people will not want to be forced to
replace every 10 years (although most people do replace their TV every
10 years anyway, but being made to do it is a different matter entirely).

What about people who spent a fair bit of money on Integrated digital
T.vs, how are they going to feel when they find out that they will not
be able to use it? About time this country made a standard and stayed
with it.

They can use it - they can get a cheap set top box like everyone else.

I doubt very much if changing to 8K will make any difference to quality,
unless the bit rates are increased.

Having more COFDM sub-carriers will make not the slightest difference to
picture quality, what it does is improve reliability in the presence of
impulse interference. The robustness of the signal (influenced by
choices such as 2k/8k and 64QAM/16QAM) is an entirely separate thing
from the quality of the picture, which is largely determined by bitrate
and the quality of the source material.

"Ad" wrote in message
...
Ivan wrote:


That would be suicide, if that happened, then people will just say sod
digital and go back to analouge.
I do not think it will happen, if it does, then how can we trsut Ofcom
not to change the system when it likes?


As well over 90 per cent of Freeviews near 6 million viewer's probably
have
8K compatible receivers anyway, and won't notice any difference (apart
from

That is just guess work, a lot of people may still have the older
Ondigital boxes even when/if the analogue is switched off. what about
the first no Ondigital set top box, the small Pace, can that cope with 8K?

maybe improved reception for lots of people) then I can't really see why
people would be turning away from Freeview 'en mass' can you?

That depends if people can trust Ofcom and the government and how often
is the goal post going to be moved.

Look at it this way, have had analogue T.v for years, the only major
change was from VHF to UHF, then we went for years with the same system,
ok, so we had a couple more channels, but my old 25 years old Fergi that
I got up here will still work with the analogue system, I got a 30 years
old Black and white portable, that will also work with the analogue
system.

Now if Ofcom is going to change the system every 5 to 10 years, do you
not think people will get a bit ****ed off?

What about people who spent a fair bit of money on Integrated digital
T.vs, how are they going to feel when they find out that they will not
be able to use it? About time this country made a standard and stayed
with it.
I doubt very much if changing to 8K will make any difference to quality,
unless the bit rates are increased.

My faith in this government, Ofcom and our digital t.v system have
decreased.

Being in the TV trade at the time, I can well remember the moans and groans
from people who had perfectly working VHF 405 TV's so didn't see any reason
to pay for a new UHF aerial and TV receiver, which in real terms cost them a
helluva lot more than a present-day 'possible' replacement for a
five-year-old digi box.

Remember it was to appease a few thousand pre-war viewer's with obsolete TV
sets (which had been in storage for years, and would therefore have possibly
blown up when reconnected) that we were lumbered with the 405 system for
donkey's years after the rest of Europe and other parts of world had opted
for 625 lines.

I think that even you must agree that there are times when we have to move
on, otherwise we would all still be stuck in the 1960s!