Germany

AVSForum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=496065

quote:
Originally posted by dcarl
I guess our OTA system isn'r quite perfect either, but webpages like
this one (from Berlin) make me glad we're using 8VSB.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...ein%2fdvb-t.htm

Using an outdoor antenna, and the transmitter 25 miles away, his
refrigerator is ruining his reception.

After translating a couple of German DTV forums, I get the distinct
impression impulse noise is still a serious issue with those systems.

CKNA answers...
Certain individual whose banned from here would disagree with you. That
is the fact however, that COFDM has very serious problems with impulse
noise. I frequently read Australian DTV forum were people bitch all the
time that hair dryer or even light switch break up the picture.

No system is perfect. I believe that most problems in US with DTV
reception are because people do not have decent antenna, or the station
is not broadcasting at full power.

Bob Miller responds...

First the German DTV viewer in Berlin does not have his reception
ruined. In fact he ends the article with perfect reception on all
channels but one as I quote him here...

"On the channels 5 to 44 IN THE BEST WAY is everything! Only on channel
56 there are still up to 5 seconds long picture and clay/tone misfires,
sometimes remains the box also hanging and I must it again start: - ("

AND channel 56 is a pretty high UHF channel that would need a big
transmitter (the higher the channel the higher the necessary power
needed) yet the effective radiated power of channel 56 in Berlin is only
10 kWs on the closest transmitter. In fact only one stations transmitter
at Alexanderplatz, his closest transmitter, is over 20 kWs.

What would our friends say about that power level on a US DTV station?
They would call it a extremely low power station and blame any reception
problem on its low power status. But they don't mention it here. Wonder why?

Also at 25 miles it is a "DVB t receipt in the peripheral area" as is
the heading of this German's report. That is he is saying that the
offending site is in a forest well beyond the coverage area of Berlin's
transmitters. In fact the German author say that reception of all
stations in the ACTUAL Berlin coverage area is "The DVB t receipt is
completely trouble free" and "And this with a simple open dipole
(consisting of two telescope staffs) and without any amplifiers". The
author has gone to the trouble of testing reception at the farthest
limits he expects to have any luck. In a place where he has no cable and
problems with the forest interfering with satellite.

Here in the US we have total failure of 8-VSB at a MEGAWATT (Million
Watts) within 10 city blocks of the transmitter while our friends CKNA
and dcarl from AVSForum suggest it is better than one that gives perfect
reception of all but one station at 25 miles in a forest using 10 kWs
(thousand Watts). The math says the power differential is 100 times
less. Would dcarl and CKNA like to try at the same power levels?

And then in the most twisted logic possible CKNA says that US problems
mostly have to do with NOT BEING AT FULL POWER and not using the right
antenna. Come to New York friend. Your filings vibrate from the power
coming off the Empire State Building at 34th ST. but there is NO
reception in Times Square at 42nd ST.

The powers of denial are infinite. This is insanity.

Then you can add to this a little real world market reality. In the US
we have a MANDATE because no one in their right mind would buy the junk
being sold as OTA receivers while in Germany they have major public
acceptance of COFDM OTA receivers. Germany will have a successful DTV
transition while in the US we will have a MANDATED pretend transition.
We will pretend that since people were forced to buy integrated DTV sets
that they actually use them OTA and further we will pretend that they
actually work. Reminds one of the USSR where everything was handled this
way and nothing worked.

Bob Miller

Of course there is the caveat that maybe someone will start making LG
5th gen receivers or thiner equivalent and flood the market with them in
which case our DTV transition has a chance of success. A rather poor
limited success.

Booby.... Damn dude you really need to get a job, some sort of job. this
silly thing has got the best of you. Move on Booby. BTW: if I want to read
AVS I can go there and read all I like, I just don't believe the magic 8
ball..... ROFLOL.......

Fear can hold you prisoner
Hope can set you free

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
ink.net...
AVSForum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=496065

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
ink.net...
AVSForum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=496065

quote:
Originally posted by dcarl
I guess our OTA system isn'r quite perfect either, but webpages like this
one (from Berlin) make me glad we're using 8VSB.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...ein%2fdvb-t.htm

Using an outdoor antenna, and the transmitter 25 miles away, his
refrigerator is ruining his reception.

After translating a couple of German DTV forums, I get the distinct
impression impulse noise is still a serious issue with those systems.

CKNA answers...
Certain individual whose banned from here would disagree with you. That is
the fact however, that COFDM has very serious problems with impulse noise.
I frequently read Australian DTV forum were people bitch all the time that
hair dryer or even light switch break up the picture.

No system is perfect. I believe that most problems in US with DTV
reception are because people do not have decent antenna, or the station is
not broadcasting at full power.

Bob Miller responds...

First the German DTV viewer in Berlin does not have his reception ruined.
In fact he ends the article with perfect reception on all channels but one
as I quote him here...

"On the channels 5 to 44 IN THE BEST WAY is everything! Only on channel 56
there are still up to 5 seconds long picture and clay/tone misfires,
sometimes remains the box also hanging and I must it again start: - ("

AND channel 56 is a pretty high UHF channel that would need a big
transmitter (the higher the channel the higher the necessary power needed)
yet the effective radiated power of channel 56 in Berlin is only 10 kWs on
the closest transmitter. In fact only one stations transmitter at
Alexanderplatz, his closest transmitter, is over 20 kWs.

What would our friends say about that power level on a US DTV station?
They would call it a extremely low power station and blame any reception
problem on its low power status. But they don't mention it here. Wonder
why?

Also at 25 miles it is a "DVB t receipt in the peripheral area" as is the
heading of this German's report. That is he is saying that the offending
site is in a forest well beyond the coverage area of Berlin's
transmitters. In fact the German author say that reception of all stations
in the ACTUAL Berlin coverage area is "The DVB t receipt is completely
trouble free" and "And this with a simple open dipole (consisting of two
telescope staffs) and without any amplifiers". The author has gone to the
trouble of testing reception at the farthest limits he expects to have any
luck. In a place where he has no cable and problems with the forest
interfering with satellite.

Here in the US we have total failure of 8-VSB at a MEGAWATT (Million
Watts) within 10 city blocks of the transmitter while our friends CKNA and
dcarl from AVSForum suggest it is better than one that gives perfect
reception of all but one station at 25 miles in a forest using 10 kWs
(thousand Watts). The math says the power differential is 100 times less.
Would dcarl and CKNA like to try at the same power levels?

And then in the most twisted logic possible CKNA says that US problems
mostly have to do with NOT BEING AT FULL POWER and not using the right
antenna. Come to New York friend. Your filings vibrate from the power
coming off the Empire State Building at 34th ST. but there is NO reception
in Times Square at 42nd ST.

The powers of denial are infinite. This is insanity.

Then you can add to this a little real world market reality. In the US we
have a MANDATE because no one in their right mind would buy the junk being
sold as OTA receivers while in Germany they have major public acceptance
of COFDM OTA receivers. Germany will have a successful DTV transition
while in the US we will have a MANDATED pretend transition. We will
pretend that since people were forced to buy integrated DTV sets that they
actually use them OTA and further we will pretend that they actually work.
Reminds one of the USSR where everything was handled this way and nothing
worked.

Bob Miller

Of course there is the caveat that maybe someone will start making LG 5th
gen receivers or thiner equivalent and flood the market with them in which
case our DTV transition has a chance of success. A rather poor limited
success.

Jesus! That AVS posting is interesting... I can't believe Germany is having
the EXACT SAME problems England and Australia have been having.

"David" wrote

Jesus! That AVS posting is interesting...

;-)

Mike Parisey wrote:
Booby.... Damn dude you really need to get a job, some sort of job.
this
silly thing has got the best of you. Move on Booby. BTW: if I want to
read
AVS I can go there and read all I like, I just don't believe the
magic 8
ball..... ROFLOL.......

No Mike, it is utterly impossible for BOB to let it go. He is as
obsessed as any individual I've ever met in my life. Now I wonder if
"Inky Black" is actually BOOBY?

Bob Miller wrote:
Here in the US we have total failure of 8-VSB at a MEGAWATT (Million
Watts) within 10 city blocks of the transmitter while our friends
CKNA
and dcarl from AVSForum suggest it is better than one that gives
perfect
reception of all but one station at 25 miles in a forest using 10 kWs

(thousand Watts). The math says the power differential is 100 times
less. Would dcarl and CKNA like to try at the same power levels?


Golly BOOBSTER, I get perfect reception at about 35 miles from the
transmitter. You always fall back on your buddy Mark Schubin when it
comes to posting about City reception. It really does get old, but so
do you. The fact is BOBBY, most people have little trouble with 8VSB.
However, many people have problems with COFDM in the U.S.....it's
called XM Radio and it SUCKS!! Thank God we never adopted that for OTA
HD, what an utter DISASTER that could have been!!!!

In the US
we have a MANDATE because no one in their right mind would buy the
junk
being sold as OTA receivers while in Germany they have major public
acceptance of COFDM OTA receivers.

No BOOBSTER, most people wouldn't buy a stand-alone OTA HD receiver
since they've probably already got one built into their satellite HD
receiver. Sorry BOOBY, we can let yet ANOTHER lie pass through this ng.

Your most likely right, but one can only hope he will just go away along
with all the rest of the trolls who think the sky fell years ago. ;-O

wrote in message
ups.com...

No Mike, it is utterly impossible for BOB to let it go. .........

wrote in message
ups.com...

Mike Parisey wrote:
Booby.... Damn dude you really need to get a job, some sort of job.
this
silly thing has got the best of you. Move on Booby. BTW: if I want to
read
AVS I can go there and read all I like, I just don't believe the
magic 8
ball..... ROFLOL.......

No Mike, it is utterly impossible for BOB to let it go. He is as
obsessed as any individual I've ever met in my life. Now I wonder if
"Inky Black" is actually BOOBY?

No, I don't think Bob would let his daughter use a name like "inky black",
he'd think up something more appropriate.

wrote:
Bob Miller wrote:
Here in the US we have total failure of 8-VSB at a MEGAWATT (Million
Watts) within 10 city blocks of the transmitter while our friends
CKNA and dcarl from AVSForum suggest it is better than one that
gives perfect reception of all but one station at 25 miles in a
forest using 10 kWs

(thousand Watts). The math says the power differential is 100 times
less. Would dcarl and CKNA like to try at the same power levels?


Golly BOOBSTER, I get perfect reception at about 35 miles from the
transmitter. You always fall back on your buddy Mark Schubin when it
comes to posting about City reception. It really does get old, but so
do you. The fact is BOBBY, most people have little trouble with 8VSB.
However, many people have problems with COFDM in the U.S.....it's
called XM Radio and it SUCKS!! Thank God we never adopted that for OTA
HD, what an utter DISASTER that could have been!!!!

As Bob mentioned a megawatt station I thought I'd add this ...

WJZ Baltimore just went 1MEG on their UHF 38-DTV. Reception on my attic
aerial located just west of Dover DE (Route 8 halfway between Dover & the
state line - 56 miles distant) went to a solid 95%. Experimenting with a
bow-tie aerial on the ground floor (granted, near a west facing window) I
was able to positition it to get an 80% strength.

Again, YMMV. ;-)

drewdawg wrote:

wrote:

Bob Miller wrote:

Here in the US we have total failure of 8-VSB at a MEGAWATT (Million
Watts) within 10 city blocks of the transmitter while our friends
CKNA and dcarl from AVSForum suggest it is better than one that
gives perfect reception of all but one station at 25 miles in a
forest using 10 kWs

(thousand Watts). The math says the power differential is 100 times
less. Would dcarl and CKNA like to try at the same power levels?


Golly BOOBSTER, I get perfect reception at about 35 miles from the
transmitter. You always fall back on your buddy Mark Schubin when it
comes to posting about City reception. It really does get old, but so
do you. The fact is BOBBY, most people have little trouble with 8VSB.
However, many people have problems with COFDM in the U.S.....it's
called XM Radio and it SUCKS!! Thank God we never adopted that for OTA
HD, what an utter DISASTER that could have been!!!!


As Bob mentioned a megawatt station I thought I'd add this ...

WJZ Baltimore just went 1MEG on their UHF 38-DTV. Reception on my attic
aerial located just west of Dover DE (Route 8 halfway between Dover & the
state line - 56 miles distant) went to a solid 95%. Experimenting with a
bow-tie aerial on the ground floor (granted, near a west facing window) I
was able to positition it to get an 80% strength.

Again, YMMV. ;-)


So with ONLY 100 times the power you get reception at twice the
distance. That is amazing. Of course our German friend did not try to
get reception at more than 25 miles in a forest but what if he did? I
would expect that in the right circumstances he might get 80% signal
strength at 35 miles, 45 miles and even 56 miles. What are you saying?
That it is a good thing that we use a MEGAWATT of power in this
incredibly inefficient way?

And as we know from 1999 Sinclair test you probably have a very
difficult time receiving the MEGAWATT transmitter IN Baltimore itself.

Bob Miller