DD and DTS and muffled center channel audio

Hi all,

Here's something I've noticed about both Dolby Digital and DTS, to
varying levels, on all of the equipment I've tried. Now I've never
used any high end equipment. Most of my stuff has been from Yamaha,
Kenwood, Sony etc. However, I've gone through three different
receivers and a couple of speaker brands (My current receiver is a
Kenwood and the speakers are Athenas all across the front).

Here's the thing. With all the equipment I've tried or owned, I've
noticed a distinct muffled sound with almost all spoken dialogue
through the center channel. Other sounds, suck as bullets whizzing,
zinging and such sound great. The audio is fine otherwise but it's
almost as if the actors are speaking through mics covered with a towel
or something. To get the voices in any given soundtrack to a
comfortable level, I have to boost the volume in the center channel
all the way to +10 and crank my entire system up to the point to where
any sudden action or explosions are very loud indeed.

For a while, I thought I must be doing something wrong, have
something hooked up wrong or just have crappy equipment. I checked out
everything that I could think of and then checked it twice. Same
results.

I've come to the conclusion that for listening at moderate volume
levels, DD and DTS simply aren't what they're cracked up to be. I
suppose if you live somewhere where you can crank the volume up to the
insane levels they play it at in the theaters, it might sound great.
For those of us who are considrate of our neighbors, it seems to be
not so great.

Anyway, I suppose I might be able to correct this if I had a receiver
that allowed me to tweak the center channel but I honestly don't know
of any and the Kenwood I have doesn't have any adjustments that make a
real difference. Hell, even the tone controls on this Kenwood don't
work whilst in DD or DTS modes. If you don't like the "Cinema" EQ
preset that Kenwood has chosen, you're kind of screwed (Unless you
want to go from slightly muffled sounding audio to VERY muffled
sounding audio and turn the EQ off completely).

Anyone else notice this at all or have any suggestions?

After over 4 years with my Yamaha DSP-A1 the only time I heard
"muffled" center sound was when the center's tweeter blew. But after
repairing that problem, I had also experienced lower than desired
center dialog volume when compared to the surrounds - was having to
many times increase vol for dialog, then decrease vol for surround
effects - fixed this by setting the A1's Dynamic Range to "Standard"
(H-Level Cut=1.0, L-Level Boost=1.0)

Here's the thing. With all the equipment I've tried or owned, I've
noticed a distinct muffled sound with almost all spoken dialogue
through the center channel. Other sounds, suck as bullets whizzing,
zinging and such sound great. The audio is fine otherwise but it's
almost as if the actors are speaking through mics covered with a towel
or something.

if you mean muffled as in no treble, one cause is THX Re-EQ (or its clones),
which reduces treble when turned on. On Goldmember in the audio setup it
even tells you that it's already re-eq'd so don't muck with it. Other
movies really need it on the other hand.

if you really meant not loud enough:

To get the voices in any given soundtrack to a
comfortable level, I have to boost the volume in the center channel
all the way to +10 and crank my entire system up to the point to where
any sudden action or explosions are very loud indeed.

snip

suppose if you live somewhere where you can crank the volume up to the
insane levels they play it at in the theaters, it might sound great.
For those of us who are considrate of our neighbors, it seems to be
not so great.

solution: midnight mode or whatever the particular brand calls it. It's
dynamic range reduction, and used to apply only to DD, but DTS started using
it not too long ago

You don't mention whether your receiver or dvd player ACTUALLY DECODES
DD DTS.

Hmmm! You have a receiver which doesn't allow for increasing the
volume on the center channel, independent of the right and left
speakers? That sounds like a "stereo" receiver (or stereo setting),
which DOESN'T decode DD DTS. If so, that's a major part of your
dilemma.

(Rooster) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

Here's something I've noticed about both Dolby Digital and DTS, to
varying levels, on all of the equipment I've tried. Now I've never
used any high end equipment. Most of my stuff has been from Yamaha,
Kenwood, Sony etc. However, I've gone through three different
receivers and a couple of speaker brands (My current receiver is a
Kenwood and the speakers are Athenas all across the front).

Here's the thing. With all the equipment I've tried or owned, I've
noticed a distinct muffled sound with almost all spoken dialogue
through the center channel. Other sounds, suck as bullets whizzing,
zinging and such sound great. The audio is fine otherwise but it's
almost as if the actors are speaking through mics covered with a towel
or something. To get the voices in any given soundtrack to a
comfortable level, I have to boost the volume in the center channel
all the way to +10 and crank my entire system up to the point to where
any sudden action or explosions are very loud indeed.

For a while, I thought I must be doing something wrong, have
something hooked up wrong or just have crappy equipment. I checked out
everything that I could think of and then checked it twice. Same
results.

I've come to the conclusion that for listening at moderate volume
levels, DD and DTS simply aren't what they're cracked up to be. I
suppose if you live somewhere where you can crank the volume up to the
insane levels they play it at in the theaters, it might sound great.
For those of us who are considrate of our neighbors, it seems to be
not so great.

Anyway, I suppose I might be able to correct this if I had a receiver
that allowed me to tweak the center channel but I honestly don't know
of any and the Kenwood I have doesn't have any adjustments that make a
real difference. Hell, even the tone controls on this Kenwood don't
work whilst in DD or DTS modes. If you don't like the "Cinema" EQ
preset that Kenwood has chosen, you're kind of screwed (Unless you
want to go from slightly muffled sounding audio to VERY muffled
sounding audio and turn the EQ off completely).

Anyone else notice this at all or have any suggestions?

(CEO) wrote in message . com...
You don't mention whether your receiver or dvd player ACTUALLY DECODES
DD DTS.

Sorry, you're right. I should have been more clear about certain
things. The receiver in question is a Kenwood VR-6050. It does decode
both DD and DTS and is connected by TOSLINK.

Hmmm! You have a receiver which doesn't allow for increasing the
volume on the center channel, independent of the right and left

Yes, it does allow for independent volume adjustments for the center
channel. However, raising it all the way to +10 barely makes a
difference in many cases. I know it's not the speaker because I've had
three different center speakers and they all sounded pretty much the
same.

speakers? That sounds like a "stereo" receiver (or stereo setting),
which DOESN'T decode DD DTS. If so, that's a major part of your
dilemma.

Again, it is a DD/DTS receievr and I am using it in either DD or DTS
mode (Depending on the movie). Some movies, the center volume seems at
least adequate. On others, it seems really low or muffled in
comparison to the music and surround effects in all other speakers.

Again, I've had about three receivers capable of decoding at least DD
(My last two could decode both DD and DTS).

(Rooster) wrote in message . com...
Hi all,

Here's something I've noticed about both Dolby Digital and DTS, to
varying levels, on all of the equipment I've tried. Now I've never
used any high end equipment. Most of my stuff has been from Yamaha,
Kenwood, Sony etc. However, I've gone through three different
receivers and a couple of speaker brands (My current receiver is a
Kenwood and the speakers are Athenas all across the front).

Here's the thing. With all the equipment I've tried or owned, I've
noticed a distinct muffled sound with almost all spoken dialogue
through the center channel. Other sounds, suck as bullets whizzing,
zinging and such sound great. The audio is fine otherwise but it's
almost as if the actors are speaking through mics covered with a towel
or something. To get the voices in any given soundtrack to a
comfortable level, I have to boost the volume in the center channel
all the way to +10 and crank my entire system up to the point to where
any sudden action or explosions are very loud indeed.

For a while, I thought I must be doing something wrong, have
something hooked up wrong or just have crappy equipment. I checked out
everything that I could think of and then checked it twice. Same
results.

I've come to the conclusion that for listening at moderate volume
levels, DD and DTS simply aren't what they're cracked up to be. I
suppose if you live somewhere where you can crank the volume up to the
insane levels they play it at in the theaters, it might sound great.
For those of us who are considrate of our neighbors, it seems to be
not so great.

Anyway, I suppose I might be able to correct this if I had a receiver
that allowed me to tweak the center channel but I honestly don't know
of any and the Kenwood I have doesn't have any adjustments that make a
real difference. Hell, even the tone controls on this Kenwood don't
work whilst in DD or DTS modes. If you don't like the "Cinema" EQ
preset that Kenwood has chosen, you're kind of screwed (Unless you
want to go from slightly muffled sounding audio to VERY muffled
sounding audio and turn the EQ off completely).

Anyone else notice this at all or have any suggestions?

"B. Earp" wrote in message ...
Here's the thing. With all the equipment I've tried or owned, I've
noticed a distinct muffled sound with almost all spoken dialogue
through the center channel. Other sounds, suck as bullets whizzing,
zinging and such sound great. The audio is fine otherwise but it's
almost as if the actors are speaking through mics covered with a towel
or something.

if you mean muffled as in no treble, one cause is THX Re-EQ (or its clones),
which reduces treble when turned on. On Goldmember in the audio setup it
even tells you that it's already re-eq'd so don't muck with it. Other
movies really need it on the other hand.

Well, my receiver is a lower end one. I don't think there are any THX
settings on it (if that's what you mean). It's not a complete lack of
treble. Rather, the treble seems somewhat muted AND the volume in the
center seems a bit lower in the center no matter what I do.


if you really meant not loud enough:

To get the voices in any given soundtrack to a
comfortable level, I have to boost the volume in the center channel
all the way to +10 and crank my entire system up to the point to where
any sudden action or explosions are very loud indeed.

snip

suppose if you live somewhere where you can crank the volume up to the
insane levels they play it at in the theaters, it might sound great.
For those of us who are considrate of our neighbors, it seems to be
not so great.

solution: midnight mode or whatever the particular brand calls it. It's
dynamic range reduction, and used to apply only to DD, but DTS started using
it not too long ago

I have tried the Midnight mode. I suppose it makes things better in
some respects but then it doesn't seem very realistic. Perhaps I can
get used to it. I'll maybe give it another shot.

Rooster wrote:
Yes, it does allow for independent volume adjustments for the
center channel. However, raising it all the way to +10 barely
makes a difference in many cases. I know it's not the speaker
because I've had three different center speakers and they
all sounded pretty much the same.

Have you got the center wired correctly? Maybe having the wires
crossed (out of phase) may make a difference?

Is there a Phantom mode for the center speaker? I can't remember for
DD/DTS amps, but if the center is set to Phantom, then the sounds may
be coming from the l/r speakers instead.

Try running a new cable to the center speaker - if you've had 3 amps
and 3 different center speakers attached at various times, then maybe
the cable is at fault?

Gary.


--?
www.g-lightfoot.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Please remove the spam trap from my email addy to reply.

(Rooster) wrote in message . com...
(CEO) wrote in message . com...
You don't mention whether your receiver or dvd player ACTUALLY DECODES
DD DTS.

Sorry, you're right. I should have been more clear about certain
things. The receiver in question is a Kenwood VR-6050. It does decode
both DD and DTS and is connected by TOSLINK.

Hmmm! You have a receiver which doesn't allow for increasing the
volume on the center channel, independent of the right and left

Yes, it does allow for independent volume adjustments for the center
channel. However, raising it all the way to +10 barely makes a
difference in many cases. I know it's not the speaker because I've had
three different center speakers and they all sounded pretty much the
same.

speakers? That sounds like a "stereo" receiver (or stereo setting),
which DOESN'T decode DD DTS. If so, that's a major part of your
dilemma.

Again, it is a DD/DTS receievr and I am using it in either DD or DTS
mode (Depending on the movie). Some movies, the center volume seems at
least adequate. On others, it seems really low or muffled in
comparison to the music and surround effects in all other speakers.

I, like others, suspect your equipment. I've used my DD/DTS 5.1
system with a center speaker and without (phantom center). In both
cases the dialog was loud, crisp and clear. Turning the center volume
way up in the reciever made the dialog too loud. We don't want you to
miss out on this. :-)

Have you run a 5.1 setup test? One of the tests that sends sound
through each speaker so you can adjust volume levels. The volume of
this noise test from the center speaker should be the same as your
left, right and surround channels. Maybe you'll have to do a +1 on
the volume for center. But if it's still quiet at +10 then you know
something in either speaker or reciever is faulty regardless of the
5.1 mix on a DVD. The THX setup option that comes on many disks
nowadays is a good one if you don't want to go out and buy a real
setup DVD. It even plays with the phase of the sound so you can make
sure you wired them correctly.

First thing after that, i would try the "Phantom Center" mode for your
receiver. Disconnect your center speaker completely and tell the
receiver you don't have a center. Dialog should come out of your
front L/R speakers. If this sounds fine, then either your center,
center speaker wire, or receiver outputs for center speaker are
somehow faulty. I used this test to convince myself that something
inside my center speaker had died. It's still using the 5.1 track but
putting the sound through the other speakers. If this sounds just as
bad, then i would suspect something wrong in the way the receiver
decodes the center channel.

And when you say 5.1 is bad, what are you comparing it to? If you try
the DD2.0 track or use analog L/R connections and fine either of those
muddy as well, then that's further evidence that something is wrong in
the equipment. But even if they sound fine i guess it doesn't help
narrow down the problem since both will bypass the reciever's digital
center channel.

Kevin

"Gary Lightfoot" wrote in message ...
Rooster wrote:
Yes, it does allow for independent volume adjustments for the
center channel. However, raising it all the way to +10 barely
makes a difference in many cases. I know it's not the speaker
because I've had three different center speakers and they
all sounded pretty much the same.

Have you got the center wired correctly? Maybe having the wires
crossed (out of phase) may make a difference?

Is there a Phantom mode for the center speaker? I can't remember for
DD/DTS amps, but if the center is set to Phantom, then the sounds may
be coming from the l/r speakers instead.

I don't think this particular receiever has a Phantom mode per se.
I'm pretty sure if I turn the speaker off, it reroutes the center
information to the front l/r but there's no mode that says "phantom"
and I can't find any reference to it in the manual. There is sound
coming from the center.....it just isn't very loud.

Try running a new cable to the center speaker - if you've had 3 amps
and 3 different center speakers attached at various times, then maybe
the cable is at fault?

I thought of that too. I've tried various cables and various gauges
with very little varience in the sound. The current wire is made by
Acoustic Research and is from the same roll I used for my entire
system. I also thought it might be out of phase and rewired it,
checking the polarity closely. No luck there.

Gary.


--?
www.g-lightfoot.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Please remove the spam trap from my email addy to reply.

From: (Kevin)

(Rooster) wrote in message
.com...
(CEO) wrote in message
.com...
You don't mention whether your receiver or dvd player ACTUALLY DECODES
DD DTS.

Sorry, you're right. I should have been more clear about certain
things. The receiver in question is a Kenwood VR-6050. It does decode
both DD and DTS and is connected by TOSLINK.

Hmmm! You have a receiver which doesn't allow for increasing the
volume on the center channel, independent of the right and left

Yes, it does allow for independent volume adjustments for the center
channel. However, raising it all the way to +10 barely makes a
difference in many cases. I know it's not the speaker because I've had
three different center speakers and they all sounded pretty much the
same.

speakers? That sounds like a "stereo" receiver (or stereo setting),
which DOESN'T decode DD DTS. If so, that's a major part of your
dilemma.

Again, it is a DD/DTS receievr and I am using it in either DD or DTS
mode (Depending on the movie). Some movies, the center volume seems at
least adequate. On others, it seems really low or muffled in
comparison to the music and surround effects in all other speakers.

I, like others, suspect your equipment. I've used my DD/DTS 5.1
system with a center speaker and without (phantom center). In both
cases the dialog was loud, crisp and clear. Turning the center volume
way up in the reciever made the dialog too loud. We don't want you to
miss out on this. :-)

Hmmmm....that is as I thought it should be. I had expected the level control
for the center speaker to have much more of an affect than it actually does. I
would also suspect my equipment if I hadn't had the same issue with three
seperate receivers. First was a cheap Aiwa, then a moderately priced Yamaha and
now the Kenwood. The center speakers have been KLH (Not surprised it didn't
sound so hot) Then, I had a Yamaha center and now I'm using the Athena
Technologies AS-C1. I moved the center to the left channel and it sounded fine.

Have you run a 5.1 setup test?

Yes, I've run the one on the Terminator 2 DVD and the test tones available on
my receiver. There is sound coming from all speakers but again, the sound from
the center is lower and can only be evened out by setting the center volume all
the way to +10. I've also played around with the speaker distance settings and
that helped a little.

One of the tests that sends sound
through each speaker so you can adjust volume levels. The volume of
this noise test from the center speaker should be the same as your
left, right and surround channels. Maybe you'll have to do a +1 on
the volume for center. But if it's still quiet at +10 then you know
something in either speaker or reciever is faulty regardless of the
5.1 mix on a DVD. The THX setup option that comes on many disks
nowadays is a good one if you don't want to go out and buy a real
setup DVD. It even plays with the phase of the sound so you can make
sure you wired them correctly.

Unless the speaker terminals are mislabeled on my receiver or speakers,
they're all wired correctly. I've been over and over the entire wiring for each
speaker, making sure none of them are out of phase.

First thing after that, i would try the "Phantom Center" mode for your
receiver. Disconnect your center speaker completely and tell the
receiver you don't have a center. Dialog should come out of your
front L/R speakers. If this sounds fine, then either your center,
center speaker wire, or receiver outputs for center speaker are
somehow faulty. I used this test to convince myself that something
inside my center speaker had died. It's still using the 5.1 track but
putting the sound through the other speakers. If this sounds just as
bad, then i would suspect something wrong in the way the receiver
decodes the center channel.

Just out of curiosity, how loud do you normally listen to your movies? My
receiver's volume control starts out at 92 (lowest) and goes to 1. I've found
that somewhere around 45 is about the loudest I want to go, without going deaf
in the louder parts of action flicks. Is it possible that I'm just not turning
the master volume up loud enough?

And when you say 5.1 is bad, what are you comparing it to?

Well, the entire 5.1 isn't bad, just the voices. I've even found that music
and sound effects coming from the center sound fine. It's almost as if the
speaking parts of the movies have been turned way down, leaving everything else
alone. I've only found a few films where everything sounds great. Off the top
of my head, Braveheart and Die Another Day.

If you try
the DD2.0 track or use analog L/R connections and fine either of those
muddy as well, then that's further evidence that something is wrong in
the equipment. But even if they sound fine i guess it doesn't help
narrow down the problem since both will bypass the reciever's digital
center channel.

I've used the DD2.0 setting and it sounds fine, other than the fact that I
miss the surround sound.

Anyway, I've had this particular receiver for about a year and I've tried
everything I can think of. Does anyone know of a receiver for under $500 (US
Dollars) that I might be happier with? I'd like to find one that gives me
slightly more control. A good example would be something where the tone
controls actually work in DD and DTS modes (The digital modes override the tone
controls on this receiver). Perhaps some receivers even have independent EQs
for each speaker?


Kevin