Please review my proposed Shuttle Media Center PC spec

"Tiny Tim" wrote in message
...
Stephen Neal wrote:
"Tiny Tim" wrote in message
...
[snip]
[snip]
Thanks for the reply. I'll take on board what you say about ATI generating
composite syncs, although I wonder whether TVTool ( I use that on my Dell
Inspiron 8000 nVidia laptop at the moment) basically offers a similar
feature. I know that my DIVX video is improved tenfold when processed
through TVTool and that includes both filling the screen properly and
providing strong contrast and rich colours. Without TVTool the s-video
output is pretty rubbish. TVTool offers a transformation.

I doubt it - I also use TV Tool on my laptop, but this is specifically
designed for controlling the TV output bits of video cards, and the
VGA-SCART solution is designed to completely ignore these bits of the card.
Instead it is driven directly by the RGB VGA analogue outputs that would
otherwise be driving a VGA CRT or LCD - in other words the native output of
the video card.

The TV Output - and the bits that TV Tool control - are basically extra bits
that derive a composite or s-video and standard TV line/field rate video
signal from the video card - they don't take the native output and feed it
to the TV. They will obviously generate composite syncs for the composite
video feed - that is the only possible syncs that you can use for a
composite or s-video feed. TV Tool does allow you to improve the quality of
your composite and s-video output - but only a bit - you are still limited
by the inherent quality limitations of the subcarrier based chroma system
used by s-video and composite (they are effectively identical video
signals - it is just that the chroma is physically separated by being
carried on different wires in the case of s-video!) They are nowhere near
the quality of RGB.

However AIUI the ATI series of cards are unusual in allowing their VGA
outputs (i.e. the 15 pin sub-mini) to output either separate H and V sync
pulses - as per the VGA standard - as well as allowing them to generate
mixed or composite syncs (where the H+V are presented on the same pin). I
believe they are also unusual in allowing an interlaced output (where
alternate Windows desktop lines are output in alternate fields - this gives
huge amounts of flickering when using normal Windows applications, because
single pixel lines only appear in every other field (so flicker at 25Hz not
50Hz) - but Windows Media Center's menus, and normal video, look fine.

(Composite syncs can be easily created using a little extra circuitry - but
the hassle and cost of this is obviously not a problem with ATIs!
Interlacing is much more crucial)


As I have no recent experience of ATI graphics or Powerstrip I just
plumped for nVidia as I have more recent experience of getting that to
work. I do have a 6 year old Dell Inspiron 7000 with ATI graphics so
perhaps I'll see if Powerstrip will work with that and have a bit of a
tinker :-)


AIUI older video cards may be more easily persuadable to do this than newer
ones, however they may not be as MCE compatible.

Anyway - I've managed to build my cable (horrid gash thing made up from a
dead scart-scart lead and soldered rather too hastily) - to check it works.
All I can say is WOW! The quality improvement over S-video is amazing, and
the image fills the screen.

I'm currently running in 720x576 mode - so the desktop is slightly chopped
off at the edges - but it means the TV picture is displayed beautifully.
MCE 2005 looks great, Windows normal stuff looks horrid! I used a second
computer to drive the MCE machine using VNC - as that is the neatest way of
configuring a PC when you have no way of looking at its video output!

Next step is to attempt a 16:9 1024x576 or 1080x576 mode so that I get a
16:9 Windows desktop (rather than 4:3 stretched) - and don't have to switch
ZOOM modes in MCE to watch 4:3 and 16:9 stuff the right shape.

Fingers crossed!

Steve

- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set top
box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T or
Nebula cards.

Don't consider a DVB-T card - you need an analogue card to record from Sky.
Stick with the Hauppauge!

Terry

In ,
Tiny Tim wrote:

I'm allowing myself to be guided by the hardware compatibility list here -
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...erlisting.mspx
for MCE 2005. I see no mention of Matrox or Voodoo so have no information on
which to choose such a card. If the card doesn't work fully with MCE 2005
then it is not of interest to me.

MCE isn't really designed for what you want though. They've only really
considered using a monitor as the display device. The only way you're
going to get a TV picture anywhere near as good as a STB is with
something other than NVidia or ATI TV-out. If MCE or even XP don't
support the alternatvies you'll have to use Linux - but TV is one of the
hardest things to get working in Linux, I can tell you!

There's no need for at least a Radeon 9800 and why does a wireless
router have to be certified for a HTPC? The list just shows who was
willing to pay MS's extortion money and which of their products they
felt were worth pushing.

But perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. As a laptop user of almost 10
years I have never really bothered about graphics before as everything has
worked just fine on the TFT display, and I don't play games. As my video
signal from the STB will be interlaced PAL and my TV expects interlaced PAL
then I do not understand why I should be concerned about software
de-interlacing - or is that only where DIVX is concerned? If so, my current
nVidia Geforce2go 32MB laptop graphics card seems to manage quite well at
producing a watchable TV picture through s-video so long as I use TVTool to
magically transform the picture. WMP 10 uses about 50% cpu of my PIII 900
processor when playing a DIVX movie.

AIUI you only need to worry about interlacing if the programme/film is
interlaced. I've never had interlacing problems with a DivX, only with
some DVB programmes. On a monitor you get some jaggedness if it isn't
processed, and on an interlaced TV the violent juddering is enough to
make you sick. The problem is because it's crucial to synchronise the
interlacing of the source with the TV output, and most graphics cards
can't do that.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
Tiny Tim wrote:
- 250GB SATA HDD (haven't chosen model - any suggestions?)

Any reason for going SATA? At this point in time, there is no benefit
to SATA, especially if all you're doing is HTPC: the HDD activity is
not too intensive.

Well I chose SATA because the Shuttle supports it and it appears to be the
next "great thing" and for a 250GB drive the price difference is only £7 on
a figure of ~£100.

- 2*256MB PC3200 DDR400 ram (any reason not to simply get budget
Crucial/generic memory?)

I'd be tempted to go up to 1GB here. No reason not to get budget RAM:
high performance is not the issue with XP MCE, but the more memory
the better. With a HTPC, you don't want pauses as the OS swaps out to
disk.

I'd be surprised if there was any swapping, given the only multi-tasking
demands will be to record a TV programme while watching or listening to
something else. I do not intend to use the machine for all its computing
power - simply as a media/entertainment center. My laptop, which has plenty
of concurrent apps running, does not seem to be unduly burdened by paging. I
see many retail media center PCs come with only 512MB.

- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set top
box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T or
Nebula cards.

144 listed in stock at Savastore and the price is v.good too. I don't see
the Black Gold or Nebula listed on the HCL. I also don't want DVB-T as I
shall be using Sky as my TV source.

- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything
cheapish so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)

I'd go for an ATI 9600 non-pro 128MB. It has no fan and you can use
the VGA-out to feed your RGB-enabled SCART on your telly.
Alternatively, consider passively cooled versions of the 9600Pro or
9800Pro. Although another poster recommended the Matrox card, which
does have excellent TV-out, MCE2005 requires a VMR9 capable card
(i.e. DirectX9), which the Matrox isn't.

It seems I should definitely switch to ATI :-)

Thanks for your feedback :-)

--
Please quote "easytiger" for your PlusNet referral :-)

Terry Walsh wrote:
- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set
top box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T
or Nebula cards.

Don't consider a DVB-T card - you need an analogue card to record
from Sky. Stick with the Hauppauge!

Terry

Cheers. That's what I thought. But I've only been looking into this for the
last 7-10 days so I'm not certain of anything. It's good to have it
confirmed.

--
Please quote "easytiger" for your PlusNet referral :-)

In ,
Tiny Tim wrote:

-= a q u a b u b b l e =- wrote:
Tiny Tim wrote:

- nVidia FX5200 128MB DVI video card (no brand chosen but anything
cheapish so long as it keeps MCE 2005 happy)

I'd go for an ATI 9600 non-pro 128MB. It has no fan and you can use
the VGA-out to feed your RGB-enabled SCART on your telly.
Alternatively, consider passively cooled versions of the 9600Pro or
9800Pro. Although another poster recommended the Matrox card, which
does have excellent TV-out, MCE2005 requires a VMR9 capable card
(i.e. DirectX9), which the Matrox isn't.

Ah, so that's why the graphics card requirements are so high (but why no
R9500/9600)?

It seems I should definitely switch to ATI :-)

Only if you're planning to use VGA to RGB, in which case you'll probably
find this invaluable: http://www.idiots.org.uk/vga_rgb_scart/. And who
knows whether you'll be OK with the interlacing? If you're planning to
stick to S-Video you might be better off with NVidia. I think 5200s are
cheaper than 9600s, and a while ago someone said their TV-out quality is
better. I haven't tried one myself, but I can confirm that my cheapo
9200SE's TV-out was very ropy, and my Sapphire 9000 was hardly better.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:

Anyway - I've managed to build my cable (horrid gash thing made up from a
dead scart-scart lead and soldered rather too hastily) - to check it works.
All I can say is WOW! The quality improvement over S-video is amazing, and
the image fills the screen.

I think most of the degradation in quality comes from the cheap scaling
circuitry on the cards rather than being inherent to S-Video. IME with
cards that are capable of displaying PAL without the scaling - such as a
Voodoo 3 or Creative DXR3 MPEG decoder - the colours are faded compared
to RGB, but the picture is very crisp and hardly distinguishable from
RGB in that respect, whereas composite suffers from colour crawl.

I actually get a better picture overall from my PC with a Freeview card
and one of the above S-Video outputs than RGB from my Sky box, because
Sky use lower rate MPEG. It's quite noticeable with the snooker.

I'm currently running in 720x576 mode - so the desktop is slightly chopped
off at the edges - but it means the TV picture is displayed beautifully.
MCE 2005 looks great, Windows normal stuff looks horrid! I used a second
computer to drive the MCE machine using VNC - as that is the neatest way of
configuring a PC when you have no way of looking at its video output!

I don't suppose you know whether MCE can handle displaying interlaced
DVB on an interlaced output?

Next step is to attempt a 16:9 1024x576 or 1080x576 mode so that I get a
16:9 Windows desktop (rather than 4:3 stretched) - and don't have to switch
ZOOM modes in MCE to watch 4:3 and 16:9 stuff the right shape.

I never bothered with that. Anamorphic DVB and DVD are the same
resolution as 4:3, they just use stretched pixels, so you're no better
off with a higher resolution and a software option to match the picture
and TV ratios.

--
The address in the Reply-To is genuine and should not be edited.
See http://www.realh.co.uk/contact.html for more reliable contact addresses.

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
. uk...
In ,
Stephen Neal wrote:

Anyway - I've managed to build my cable (horrid gash thing made up from a
dead scart-scart lead and soldered rather too hastily) - to check it
works.
All I can say is WOW! The quality improvement over S-video is amazing,
and
the image fills the screen.

I think most of the degradation in quality comes from the cheap scaling
circuitry on the cards rather than being inherent to S-Video.

Yep - I think they soften and blur rather than process properly.

IME with
cards that are capable of displaying PAL without the scaling - such as a
Voodoo 3 or Creative DXR3 MPEG decoder - the colours are faded compared
to RGB, but the picture is very crisp and hardly distinguishable from
RGB in that respect, whereas composite suffers from colour crawl.

Hmm - I have a RealMagic XCard (and work with SDI serial digital, RGB,
Composite, S-video and DV-Firewire video stuff every day so am sensitive to
picture quality I guess) - and still massively prefer the RGB over the
S-video. Whilst I accept that the lack of dot crawl is a major benefit of
S-video over composite, I still find the overall chroma resolution reduction
annoying, and also the "processed" look just a bit less than ideal - so will
always go for RGB if possible.

I agree that the improvement gained by feeding VGA to RGB SCART over S-video
TV out is more than just a function of RGB vs S-Video though - the
rescaling, flicker-reduction, re-interlacing etc. all have a part to play.


I actually get a better picture overall from my PC with a Freeview card
and one of the above S-Video outputs than RGB from my Sky box, because
Sky use lower rate MPEG. It's quite noticeable with the snooker.

Isn't the Snooker on the BBC - if so the compression on satellite is nothing
to do with Sky - the BBC handle their own satellite uplinks ;-)

I have both Sky and Freeview, both as set top boxes and PC sources, so can
comment quite effectively. In my experience some channels are better on
DTT, others on DSat. ITV1 has historically been much better on Freeview -
as it is 720x576 on DTT - and a higher data rate, whereas it is heavily
compressed and only 544x576 on DSat (aka Sky - though again Sky have nothing
to do with ITV on satellite - NTL look after the compression and uplinking
in this case)

The best pictures I have so far had were from an XCard delivering an RGB
SCART signal from my Nova-T PCI card. However the TVEdia application is just
not quite there yet - it suffers massively in the support of DVB and EPGs
when compared to MCE 2005 - hence me making the switch and moving to a
Radeon RGB solution.

So far, although I have yet to get an entirely stable picture (my DVD
recorder is in circuit and acting as a TBC but knocking the edge off the
picture and delaying it a bit), the RGB output is almost as good as the
XCard.


I'm currently running in 720x576 mode - so the desktop is slightly
chopped
off at the edges - but it means the TV picture is displayed beautifully.
MCE 2005 looks great, Windows normal stuff looks horrid! I used a second
computer to drive the MCE machine using VNC - as that is the neatest way
of
configuring a PC when you have no way of looking at its video output!

I don't suppose you know whether MCE can handle displaying interlaced
DVB on an interlaced output?


I'm not sure - I'm pretty certain Im getting 50Hz motion (not 25Hz flicker
vision) - the tickers on the ITV News Channel and Sky, as well as rolling
credits - look fluid rather than jerku, and there is no double imaging. This
could of-course be 50Hz interlaced DVB up converted to 50Hz progressive in
the card and then downconverted to 50Hz interlaced again for output. I will
fiddle with the nVidia decoder settings to see what happens if I turn all
the de-interlacing off (or can force weave or film mode - which should mean
all lines remain un-processed I think)

Next step is to attempt a 16:9 1024x576 or 1080x576 mode so that I get a
16:9 Windows desktop (rather than 4:3 stretched) - and don't have to
switch
ZOOM modes in MCE to watch 4:3 and 16:9 stuff the right shape.

I never bothered with that. Anamorphic DVB and DVD are the same
resolution as 4:3, they just use stretched pixels, so you're no better
off with a higher resolution and a software option to match the picture
and TV ratios.


Ah - but it makes MCE much nicer to use.

1. If you configure a 1024x576 mode then Windows thinks you are running in
16:9 and so the text on-screen in Windows and Windows Apps remains the right
shape (I am sensitive to stretched pictures)
2. You get more information in the TV Guide as Windows thinks it is running
on a wider desktop (so you get an extra 30 mins of listings in TV Guide for
example)
3. You never have to change aspect ratios, 4:3 stuff is displayed in
pillarbox, 16:9 stuff as full-width. (If Windows thinks you have a 4:3
display you have to force 16:9 stuff into stretch mode in MCE - with your TV
in 16:9 you then get the right shape pictures. However 4:3 stuff then is
also stretched, so you have to reset your TV to 4:3.)

It isn't a resolution thing in this case - it is a Windows/ease of use
thing.

Steve

"Tony Houghton" wrote in message
. uk...
In ,
Tiny Tim wrote:

I'm allowing myself to be guided by the hardware compatibility list
here -
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...erlisting.mspx
for MCE 2005. I see no mention of Matrox or Voodoo so have no information
on
which to choose such a card. If the card doesn't work fully with MCE 2005
then it is not of interest to me.

MCE isn't really designed for what you want though. They've only really
considered using a monitor as the display device. The only way you're
going to get a TV picture anywhere near as good as a STB is with
something other than NVidia or ATI TV-out. If MCE or even XP don't
support the alternatvies you'll have to use Linux - but TV is one of the
hardest things to get working in Linux, I can tell you!

Hmm - I've managed to improve significantly over the TV-outs with the
VGA-RGB SCART connection using an ATI Radeon. This is, at first glance,
pretty close to set top box quality. Massively better than S-video or
Composite from a TV out.


There's no need for at least a Radeon 9800 and why does a wireless
router have to be certified for a HTPC? The list just shows who was
willing to pay MS's extortion money and which of their products they
felt were worth pushing.

I think they rate wireless routers to ensure that they are capable of
streaming 9Mbs MPEG2 video - effectively you should be using 11g or 11a - as
11b won't cut it. (11a is apparently slightly better as it is out of the
common 2.4GHz band that video senders etc. also use - though my 11g system
works fine for streaming video and DVD stuff around the house)

I guess the MCE logo is to guarantee it will work - otherwise people might
by 11b stuff? I agree it is a bit tenuous though!


But perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. As a laptop user of almost 10
years I have never really bothered about graphics before as everything
has
worked just fine on the TFT display, and I don't play games. As my video
signal from the STB will be interlaced PAL and my TV expects interlaced
PAL
then I do not understand why I should be concerned about software
de-interlacing - or is that only where DIVX is concerned? If so, my
current
nVidia Geforce2go 32MB laptop graphics card seems to manage quite well at
producing a watchable TV picture through s-video so long as I use TVTool
to
magically transform the picture. WMP 10 uses about 50% cpu of my PIII 900
processor when playing a DIVX movie.

AIUI you only need to worry about interlacing if the programme/film is
interlaced.

Yep in 50Hz regions - de-interlacing is only an issue for interlaced
sources - not stuff sourced from film or progressive video.

Modern video cards use hardware acceleration to allow quite complex
de-interlacing algorithms to be deployed (as well as to assist in MPEG2
decoding) - meaning that 50Hz interlaced stuff is now often converted to
50Hz progressive, rather than 25Hz progressive (as used to be the case) This
means the motion rendition isn't dropped to half - and things don't judder
as much as they did.

If you are then re-interlacing for output using a 1:1 mapping between source
video and output video (and aren't scaling in between) then you could
theoretically get away with no de-interlacing (or "Film" mode) though - but
the minute you scaled the video using a PC it would start tearing as the 1:1
mapping would be broken and video from the two separate fields would be
moved around between the two output fields - causing horrible problems.
(This would probably make the "video in a box" modes on MCE look a bit pants
I guess - though the scaling is so extreme it might not)

I've never had interlacing problems with a DivX, only with
some DVB programmes.

Divx is almost always progressive - so won't require de-interlacing. It is
normally 25 or 30fps rather than 50 or 60fps as well IME.

On a monitor you get some jaggedness if it isn't
processed, and on an interlaced TV the violent juddering is enough to
make you sick. The problem is because it's crucial to synchronise the
interlacing of the source with the TV output, and most graphics cards
can't do that.

Yep - you can get the fields the wrong way round (which means that the
motion is backwards within the frame - horrid)

It seems - however nasty it may seem - that de-interlacing and
re-interlacing using a decent quality algorithm and video card is the least
worst option available these days. As I say - the revelation I've had
building the SCART cable this afternoon means I'm really quite pleased with
MCE 2005 and my Radeon now.

Overscan in the menus is the major problem to beat at the moment. I've got
a 1024 x 576 mode running - but the MCE 2005 menus are too close to the
edges of Overscan for this to be fantastic. I've tried a 960x540 mode - but
this drops the picture quality a bit too much (so the 1:1 mapping between
input and output DVB and DVD must be paying off even if de-interlacing and
re-interlacing is taking place)

Steve

Terry Walsh wrote:
- Hauppauge PVR-150-MCE TV card (to record from Sky satellite set
top box - no UHF TV required)

Is this available in the UK yet? Also consider the Black Gold DVB-T
or Nebula cards.

Don't consider a DVB-T card - you need an analogue card to record
from Sky. Stick with the Hauppauge!

Sorry yeah... misread that bit! It's been a long day! ;o)