no subscription = useless TiVo .. this is rediculous
 

*Rant on*

Ok, well my credit card was over its limit, so I canceled it and let
TiVo expire for a while. I understood that I would no longer get the
channel guide, and season passes would cease to work. However, what
happened is beyond unacceptable and as such I will never resubscribe
to TiVo.

Now, when I flip through channels, I get the message that my
subscription expired in the box that normally has the program's info.
I can not minimize the box to show only the channel like I could
before my subscription expired.

If it was just that, I could live with it. BUT, here's what really
gets me. I can't set up TiVo to record by time slot! I had read posts
saying you could do this with an expired unit, so maybe this is a
"new" feature. When I go to Pick Programs to Record - Record by Time
or Channel I get a message screen saying that my TiVo service is
Suspended. Wha?? I payed for the box, I should still be able to record
something if I set up the time.

*Rant off*

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:15:17 -0800, Ken wrote:

[Without a subscription,] I can't set up TiVo to record by time slot! I
had read posts saying you could do this with an expired unit, so maybe
this is a "new" feature.

I don't have any experience in this regard, but I've heard the S1s are
more "forgiving" than S2s...

I [paid] for the box, I should still be able to record something if I
set up the time.

The fact that Tivo service is _required_ is pretty common knowledge... it
says so on the box, on the website, etc.

If they tell you something is _required_, they have no responsibility to
provide you with anything if you don't have the required element.

I agree it would be nice to be able to get something without a
subscription, but Tivo is in no way obligated to give it to you...

--
Lenroc

Lenroc wrote:

I [paid] for the box, I should still be able to record something if I
set up the time.

The fact that Tivo service is _required_ is pretty common knowledge... it
says so on the box, on the website, etc.

Is it really required? On my S1 unit, I'm pretty sure I remember that
the subscription was optional. It was required if I wanted the season
features, etc, but I could record by time (like a VCR) with no
subscription.

Reading the website on the DVD-R unit says that is true with it too.
They even had an ad on TiVo a couple weeks back where they said it was
good out of the box, but that you could subscribe to TiVo for even more
features (season pass, etc).

I'd advise Ken to call them up and ask.

--
- Burt Johnson
MindStorm, Inc.
http://www.mindstorm-inc.com/software.html

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:57:51 +0000, Burt Johnson wrote:

Is it really required? On my S1 unit, I'm pretty sure I remember that the
subscription was optional. It was required if I wanted the season
features, etc, but I could record by time (like a VCR) with no
subscription.

If you read my reply, I mentioned that S1 boxes are more forgiving, which
(though I have no experience with it) I assume means you can use it
without the sub.

I should have added a "for S2" to my second paragraph ;)

Reading the website on the DVD-R unit says that is true with it too.
They even had an ad on TiVo a couple weeks back where they said it was
good out of the box, but that you could subscribe to TiVo for even more
features (season pass, etc).

The DVD-R Tivos are a different beast. They add a whole new level of
service, "Tivo Basic", which only downloads 3 days of program data at a
time, and can't do things like Season Passes, etc. (This is all from
memory, so the specifics may be a bit off).

A lifetime of Tivo Basic is included in the (exorbitant) purchase price of
those units.

However, to get "normal" Tivo service (what just about everyone currently
has, I believe it's now called "Tivo Plus" for these units), you must
subscribe as normal.

--
Lenroc

On 30 Oct 2003 00:15:17 -0800, (Ken) wrote:

I payed for the box, I should still be able to record
something if I set up the time.

Why don't you try cancelling your satellite service, or your cell phone
service, and then see how much you get for shouting "but I paid for the
box/phone".

--
"It is more uplifting to find the beauty, wonder, spirituality, and
reverence in what we can see, than to imagine they only exist in what we
can't see." - http://personalpages.tds.net/~huntergreen/

Lenroc ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
A lifetime of Tivo Basic is included in the (exorbitant) purchase price of
those units.

I couldn't find the info on the TiVo site, so:

Is the cost of "TiVo Plus" (i.e., regular TiVo for the rest of us) cheaper
than normal, since you've already paid for some of the subscription in the
price of the unit?

--
Jeff Rife | "...the flames began at a prophylactic recycling
301-916-8131 | plant, near the edge of the forest..."
|
| -- "WarGames"

"Ken" wrote in message
om...
*Rant on*

Stop complaining and buy a VCR.

"Frank J. Perricone" wrote in message
...
On 30 Oct 2003 00:15:17 -0800, (Ken) wrote:

I payed for the box, I should still be able to record
something if I set up the time.

Why don't you try cancelling your satellite service, or your cell phone
service, and then see how much you get for shouting "but I paid for the
box/phone".

--
"It is more uplifting to find the beauty, wonder, spirituality, and
reverence in what we can see, than to imagine they only exist in what we
can't see." -
http://personalpages.tds.net/~huntergreen/


Well in this case is TIVO really providing any 'service'? Since he tells it
when to record, the hardware does the job.. what service does he have to pay
for?

Satellite is different. Service content is always provided through
broadcasting the signal. The hardware is not as important as the stream it
is feed.

"Z Man" wrote in message
...

"Ken" wrote in message
om...
*Rant on*

Stop complaining and buy a VCR.



Or replay tv, or something else that doesn't try and sell a supposide
service with the hardware you bought. Or wait 5 years and no one will try to
resell you a service they get for free... like giving you program data that
they just recieve from the networks.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:51:14 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote:

I couldn't find the info on the TiVo site, so:

http://www.tivo.com/1.1.3.asp

(Also, http://www.pioneerburner.com is the one you want for the DVD-R
Tivos in general, though I couldn't find the pricing info there.)

Is the cost of "TiVo Plus" (i.e., regular TiVo for the rest of us)
cheaper than normal, since you've already paid for some of the
subscription in the price of the unit?

From the above page:

[paste]
TiVo Plus(TM) service: Subscribe to the TiVo Plus service and enjoy smart,
automatic-recording features like Search by Title, Season Pass(TM) and
WishList(TM) so you never miss your favorite shows! It's just a different
name for the same TiVo service existing subscribers know and love today.
TiVo Plus service is available for an affordable $12.95/month or a
one-time fee of $299 for product lifetime service. [/paste]

Yes, that indicates the limitations of Tivo Basic: You can only do manual
recordings by Time/Date, or choose a program in the Program Guide (only 3
days of data...) to record. Heh. Well, I guess it's better than nothing ;)

I seriously love the idea here, but $1200 for the cheapest unit, not
including the subscription that I would want (and the HMO that would make
it worthwhile) is a bit steep.

Oh well, I guess that's why I don't have one ;)

--
Lenroc

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:14:09 -0700, Ted wrote:

Well in this case is TIVO really providing any 'service'? Since he tells
it when to record, the hardware does the job.. what service does he have
to pay for?

Satellite is different. Service content is always provided through
broadcasting the signal. The hardware is not as important as the stream it
is feed.

You are "correct" in that the Box in this case should be smart enough to
function without service, unlike a cell phone, satellite tuner, etc.

It doesn't _need_ any outside contact to function.

_BUT_: It _does_ need a subscription to function, because that is how Tivo
decided to make their money. It needs a subscription because Tivo wants to
get in on that "the service is more important than the box" revenue
stream, and therefore _made_ the box not work without service.

So technically, you're right. The Tivo _shouldn't_ need service.

But it does.

It would be a problem if it was advertised otherwise, but I've never seen
a Tivo advertised that didn't tell you it needed service to function.

--
Lenroc

"Lenroc" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:51:14 -0500, Jeff Rife wrote:

Yes, that indicates the limitations of Tivo Basic: You can only do manual
recordings by Time/Date, or choose a program in the Program Guide (only 3
days of data...) to record. Heh. Well, I guess it's better than nothing ;)

I seriously love the idea here, but $1200 for the cheapest unit, not
including the subscription that I would want (and the HMO that would make
it worthwhile) is a bit steep.

Recent street prices are about $750, not 1200, which makes it a lot more
reasonable. Plus the ability to burn DVD's.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:36:09 -0500, George Eberhardt wrote:

Recent street prices are about $750, not 1200, which makes it a lot more
reasonable. Plus the ability to burn DVD's.

Hmm... it strikes me as odd that Tivo is pimiping pioneerburner.com
as _the_ source for DVD Burner information if the prices on that site vary
so greatly from the actual street prices.

I guess what it comes down to is I'm not accustomed to seeing MSRPs listed
anymore... more like Estimated (or actual) Street Prices.

It is the information age, after all ;)

--
Lenroc

Lenroc ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
[paste]
TiVo Plus(TM) service: Subscribe to the TiVo Plus service and enjoy smart,
automatic-recording features like Search by Title, Season Pass(TM) and
WishList(TM) so you never miss your favorite shows! It's just a different
name for the same TiVo service existing subscribers know and love today.
TiVo Plus service is available for an affordable $12.95/month or a
one-time fee of $299 for product lifetime service. [/paste]

So, basically, although the "TiVo Basic" subscription costs TiVo exactly
as much to maintain as "TiVo Plus" (or maybe more, if the dial-in is more
frequent because of the much shorter guide data), and you pay for it up
front in the retail price of the unit, but then you have to pay *exactly*
the same to upgrade to "TiVo Plus".

That bites, to put it mildly.

This is the first time that I really feel that TiVo service cost is a
complete rip-off.

--
Jeff Rife | "Ho! Ha, ha! Guard! Turn! Parry!
301-916-8131 | Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!"
|
| -- Daffy Duck, "Robin Hood Daffy"

"Jeff Rife" wrote
So, basically, although the "TiVo Basic" subscription costs TiVo exactly
as much to maintain as "TiVo Plus" (or maybe more, if the dial-in is more
frequent because of the much shorter guide data), and you pay for it up
front in the retail price of the unit, but then you have to pay *exactly*
the same to upgrade to "TiVo Plus".
That bites, to put it mildly.

That's what I said months ago when TiVo Basic was announced.
I thought the customer is paying something extra at retail when
buying a device with TiVo Basic in it (vs. no TiVo at all). None of
that is credited if and when the customer decides s/he wants full
TiVo service.


This is the first time that I really feel that TiVo service cost is a
complete rip-off.

Maybe, just maybe, TiVo is providing TiVo Basic at next to no
cost (or no cost at all) to companies like Pioneer just to get their
foot in the living rooms of customers, and that's why they have to
charge full price for an upgrade to full TiVo service.

Jeff Rife wrote in
:


So, basically, although the "TiVo Basic" subscription costs TiVo
exactly as much to maintain as "TiVo Plus" (or maybe more, if the
dial-in is more frequent because of the much shorter guide data), and
you pay for it up front in the retail price of the unit, but then you
have to pay *exactly* the same to upgrade to "TiVo Plus".

That bites, to put it mildly.


Huh??????

The whole point of a business is to make money. They
make money by selling you a service, that you want, at
a price that is more than what it costs them to produce.

If you don't want Tivo Plus, fine. Don't buy it.

If you *do* want Tivo Plus, fine. Buy it.

It doesn't matter what it costs Tivo, whether it costs
them $.01/month/person, or $12.90/month/person. What
matters is.... what can they convince *you* to pay.

For example.... it certainly doesn't cost Warner Brothers
$15 to burn a DVD, but that's what they charge.

Why? Because they can.

As far as Tivo Basic vs. Tivo Plus, read up on a
marketing concept called "loss leader". It's not a
new concept, at all.


__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

Ken wrote:
*Rant on*

Ok, well my credit card was over its limit, so I canceled it and let
TiVo expire for a while. I understood that I would no longer get the
channel guide, and season passes would cease to work. However, what
happened is beyond unacceptable and as such I will never resubscribe
to TiVo.

Now, when I flip through channels, I get the message that my
subscription expired in the box that normally has the program's info.
I can not minimize the box to show only the channel like I could
before my subscription expired.

If it was just that, I could live with it. BUT, here's what really
gets me. I can't set up TiVo to record by time slot! I had read posts
saying you could do this with an expired unit, so maybe this is a
"new" feature. When I go to Pick Programs to Record - Record by Time
or Channel I get a message screen saying that my TiVo service is
Suspended. Wha?? I payed for the box, I should still be able to record
something if I set up the time.

*Rant off*

Tivo _is_ the service. You're just one of those people that gets all
worked up over nothing. You should be more concerned about your blood
pressure than your Tivo monthly fee that saves you more that the fee
itself in terms of time saved watching commercials and fighting your vcr
and it's lack of recording capacity. Just pay it and quit your rants.

--
David G.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:14:09 -0700, in article
, "Ted"
wrote:


Well in this case is TIVO really providing any 'service'? Since he tells it
when to record, the hardware does the job.. what service does he have to pay
for?

The software to tell the hardware how to work. If they just sold you
the same box with a blank hard drive, that would be pretty worthless to
you wouldn't it? I certainly wouldn't have the time to write the
software to operate the box; I'm happy to pay Tivo $300 to have them do
it for me.

Tivo essentially chose to sell the software separately from the
hardware, unlike say ReplayTV who bundled it with the machine (& then
unbundled it, finally now rebundling it again). Preloading the software
on the box & just requiring activation rather than a download is just a
convenience for you, not an indication that they are willing to give it
to you for free.

It's quite prominently displayed on the box that a series 2 needs the
service in order to function.
--
Stephen Tu

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:17:10 -0700, in article
, "Ted"
wrote:


Or replay tv, or something else that doesn't try and sell a supposide
service with the hardware you bought. Or wait 5 years and no one will try to
resell you a service they get for free... like giving you program data that
they just recieve from the networks.

With Tivo you currently pay $199 for a 40 hr box, and $299 for lifetime
service for the box. $498 total.

With ReplayTV you pay $499 and get free service for 3 years, $1/month
after that. What exactly is the gain here?

Software development costs aren't free! Guide data isn't free either,
they have to pay Tribune Media services for it. The networks aren't
giving them free databases containing the programming schedules for
every local affiliate.
--
Stephen Tu

Lenroc shaped the electrons to say:
Yes, that indicates the limitations of Tivo Basic: You can only do manual
recordings by Time/Date, or choose a program in the Program Guide (only 3
days of data...) to record. Heh. Well, I guess it's better than nothing ;)

They also have VCR Plus+ - like many VCRs, so you can enter those
codes from TV Guide, etc.

Most of the navigation shortcuts are gone too, and I think I remember
hearing that 30 second skip and the clock (SPS codes) don't work in
TiVo Basic. It is really, well, Basic. ;-)

I seriously love the idea here, but $1200 for the cheapest unit, not

I've seen reports of people finding the 810H for ~$600, which isn't so
bad for a TiVO + DVD-RW.

I agree the MSRP is way too high - but it'll be forced down by the
market, I'm sure.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

Eric J. Holtman ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
The whole point of a business is to make money. They
make money by selling you a service, that you want, at
a price that is more than what it costs them to produce.

Then explain TiVo Basic.

It doesn't matter what it costs Tivo, whether it costs
them $.01/month/person, or $12.90/month/person.

Actually, it does. TiVo Basic costs them the same to support as the
full version, and (like I said, maybe even more). Unless people subscribe,
there is only one place TiVo can get the money to pay for that, and
if it isn't built into the price of the original box, it's from *other*
subscriptions.

Thus, "regular" TiVo users are subsidizing TiVo Basic users.

For example.... it certainly doesn't cost Warner Brothers
$15 to burn a DVD, but that's what they charge.

Oh, what an idiot.

It does, however, cost Warner Brothers a lot of money to *make* the
movie on the DVD, which is part of the cost.

As far as Tivo Basic vs. Tivo Plus, read up on a
marketing concept called "loss leader". It's not a
new concept, at all.

It is for TiVo. They started by subsidizing the hardware, but have now
gotten out of it because they realized they cannot make money that way.

If they are losing money on TiVo Basic, then I will have to adjust my
thinking about TiVo being around for the long term.

--
Jeff Rife |
301-916-8131 | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/SalesToFriends.gif

Bao H. Lammy ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Maybe, just maybe, TiVo is providing TiVo Basic at next to no
cost (or no cost at all) to companies like Pioneer just to get their
foot in the living rooms of customers,

This would be the dumbest thing they have ever done, then, because those
TiVo/DVD boxes *will* drop in price (or become "not the latest thing")
and there will be *lots* of people who end up using them as nothing but
a DVR with TiVo Basic. That's a lot of long-term cost that TiVo is willing
to absorb in the hopes that people upgrade.

and that's why they have to
charge full price for an upgrade to full TiVo service.

I don't see that TiVo would be willing to start subsidizing hardware
again.

--
Jeff Rife |
301-916-8131 | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/Evaluation.jpg

Jeff Rife wrote in
:

Eric J. Holtman ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
The whole point of a business is to make money. They
make money by selling you a service, that you want, at
a price that is more than what it costs them to produce.

Then explain TiVo Basic.


I just did, below.... it's a loss leader.


Thus, "regular" TiVo users are subsidizing TiVo Basic users.


That's the definition of a loss leader.


It does, however, cost Warner Brothers a lot of money to *make* the
movie on the DVD, which is part of the cost.


As are marketing costs, like, say.... "loss leaders".


If they are losing money on TiVo Basic, then I will have to adjust my
thinking about TiVo being around for the long term.


Indeed.... it might mean they're wising up on
how to market.....

It's like peddling drugs to kindergartners....
"First taste is free".



__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
The Worlds Uncensored News Source

If you trying to say that you pay for the sfw by paying for the service that
is just wrong.

SFW is SFW not a Service.

When I pay for Windows I pay for the sfw. Now if I want Tech support that is
service. If I want software updates that is a service. But charging you for
the rest of your life for sfw you already have on your machine is not
correct. It is a scammy way of making people pay more for something over a
long run then they would up front.

Tivo service is plain out wrong. VHS machines don't charge you to use them
do they. VHS has sfw (firmware) and media. Why does a tivo box expecially a
dtivo need to charge a service fee for other than to make their shareholders
happy.


"Stephen Tu" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:14:09 -0700, in article
, "Ted"
wrote:


Well in this case is TIVO really providing any 'service'? Since he tells
it
when to record, the hardware does the job.. what service does he have to
pay
for?

The software to tell the hardware how to work. If they just sold you
the same box with a blank hard drive, that would be pretty worthless to
you wouldn't it? I certainly wouldn't have the time to write the
software to operate the box; I'm happy to pay Tivo $300 to have them do
it for me.

Tivo essentially chose to sell the software separately from the
hardware, unlike say ReplayTV who bundled it with the machine (& then
unbundled it, finally now rebundling it again). Preloading the software
on the box & just requiring activation rather than a download is just a
convenience for you, not an indication that they are willing to give it
to you for free.

It's quite prominently displayed on the box that a series 2 needs the
service in order to function.
--
Stephen Tu

In the case of Dtivo the guide is free..

"Stephen Tu" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 10:17:10 -0700, in article
, "Ted"
wrote:


Or replay tv, or something else that doesn't try and sell a supposide
service with the hardware you bought. Or wait 5 years and no one will try
to
resell you a service they get for free... like giving you program data
that
they just recieve from the networks.

With Tivo you currently pay $199 for a 40 hr box, and $299 for lifetime
service for the box. $498 total.

With ReplayTV you pay $499 and get free service for 3 years, $1/month
after that. What exactly is the gain here?

Software development costs aren't free! Guide data isn't free either,
they have to pay Tribune Media services for it. The networks aren't
giving them free databases containing the programming schedules for
every local affiliate.
--
Stephen Tu

You sound like a person who is lead to believe what ever someone tells you
to believe and doesn't complain about anything. Your wife will sleep
around... don't complain thats how it is.... type.


Why doesn't tivo just charge a plain fee for the hardware and sfw? For the
same reason car manf are offering 0 APR. Because the public doesn't like
high figures up front. If they charge a little over a long time then they
can make more money from you.... Plain and simple. And the public goes along
with it. Just like this guy.




"David G." wrote in message
...
Ken wrote:
*Rant on*

Ok, well my credit card was over its limit, so I canceled it and let
TiVo expire for a while. I understood that I would no longer get the
channel guide, and season passes would cease to work. However, what
happened is beyond unacceptable and as such I will never resubscribe
to TiVo.

Now, when I flip through channels, I get the message that my
subscription expired in the box that normally has the program's info.
I can not minimize the box to show only the channel like I could
before my subscription expired.

If it was just that, I could live with it. BUT, here's what really
gets me. I can't set up TiVo to record by time slot! I had read posts
saying you could do this with an expired unit, so maybe this is a
"new" feature. When I go to Pick Programs to Record - Record by Time
or Channel I get a message screen saying that my TiVo service is
Suspended. Wha?? I payed for the box, I should still be able to record
something if I set up the time.

*Rant off*

Tivo _is_ the service. You're just one of those people that gets all
worked up over nothing. You should be more concerned about your blood
pressure than your Tivo monthly fee that saves you more that the fee
itself in terms of time saved watching commercials and fighting your vcr
and it's lack of recording capacity. Just pay it and quit your rants.

--
David G.

While strolling through alt.video.ptv.tivo, Ted was overheard plotting:

SFW is SFW not a Service.

I guess you'll be switching to Linux then?

Before long the OS your currently using will be just that so I suggest
getting used to it or finding a new arguement.

--
David

"Ted" wrote
[snip]
Why doesn't tivo just charge a plain fee for the hardware and sfw? For the
same reason car manf are offering 0 APR. Because the public doesn't like
high figures up front. If they charge a little over a long time then they
can make more money from you.... Plain and simple. And the public goes along
with it. Just like this guy.

As Citizen Ed posted, they do offer a one-time fee for the software
and service. DirecTiVo doesn't, but that's up to DirecTV. DirecTiVo
users are not TiVo customers, but DirecTV customers, so DirecTV
can decide how they want to price TiVo for their DirecTiVo clients.

"Ted" wrote
If you trying to say that you pay for the sfw by paying for the service that
is just wrong.

Yes, it's wrong -- read on.


SFW is SFW not a Service.

TiVo is not software or service, but both. Without software, the box
would not boot to anything. I'm not talking about software upgrades,
either. Software -- period. Without service, TiVo gets no guide data,
no phone # to call (as bandwidth costs money), no one to monitor
to tweak lineup data, no one to keep track of what
new channels are being added and removed to the thousands of
lineups around the country, etc.


When I pay for Windows I pay for the sfw. Now if I want Tech support that is
service. If I want software updates that is a service. But charging you for
the rest of your life for sfw you already have on your machine is not
correct. It is a scammy way of making people pay more for something over a
long run then they would up front.

Yes. If you don't like it, don't buy into it. And TiVo does have a one-
time fee as I mentioned before. It's just that not everyone wants to use
that option.


Tivo service is plain out wrong. VHS machines don't charge you to use them
do they. VHS has sfw (firmware) and media. Why does a tivo box expecially a
dtivo need to charge a service fee for other than to make their shareholders
happy.

See above, and comparing VCR firmware to TiVo's UI software is
a joke. TiVo's UI is dynamic and much more complex than a VCR's
"smarts." You might as well be comparing TiVo UI software to the
code that runs a digital kitchen timer. "Wah wah wah...I don't have
to pay a service fee for the software that runs my egg timer. Wah wah."

"Jeff Rife" wrote
Bao H. Lammy ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Maybe, just maybe, TiVo is providing TiVo Basic at next to no
cost (or no cost at all) to companies like Pioneer just to get their
foot in the living rooms of customers,
This would be the dumbest thing they have ever done, then, because those
TiVo/DVD boxes *will* drop in price (or become "not the latest thing")
and there will be *lots* of people who end up using them as nothing but
a DVR with TiVo Basic.
That's a lot of long-term cost that TiVo is willing
to absorb in the hopes that people upgrade.

People satisfied with TiVo Basic probably never would have
bought full TiVo. So even if only a few people upgrade from
TiVo Basic to full TiVo service, TiVo is ahead the way I see
things. On top of that, they get to claim a larger installed user
base by combining TiVo Basic + TiVo full service users, and
finally, they also get free advertising for TiVo in general when
people view Pioneer burner ads boasting about TiVo.


and that's why they have to
charge full price for an upgrade to full TiVo service.
I don't see that TiVo would be willing to start subsidizing hardware again.

It was different before when they were actually paying money
for subsidizing (or stock, or something more tangible). What I
see now is more like the free LE version software one gets when
one buys digital cameras, scanners, etc.

"Jeff Rife" wrote
So, basically, although the "TiVo Basic" subscription costs TiVo exactly
as much to maintain as "TiVo Plus" (or maybe more, if the dial-in is more
frequent because of the much shorter guide data),
[snip]

How do you figure that it has to call in more frequently? As it is,
the machines call in daily and have about 12 days of guide data
in advance. I don't see why a machine that is limited to 3 days of
guide data in advance would need to call in any more than daily.

On 30 Oct 2003 00:15:17 -0800, (Ken) wrote:


DAMNIT I bought a phone and used Verizon as my carrier but then I
didn't pay my phone bill and verzion cut me off!!! could you believe
it--I payed for the phone shouldn't I still be able to use it??!!

DAMNIT I bought a TV and used Time Warner Cable-I didn't pay my cable
bill so they turned off cable on me!!!! the nerve I payed for the TV
shouldn't I be able to use cable on it???!!!!


*Rant on*

Ok, well my credit card was over its limit, so I canceled it and let
TiVo expire for a while. I understood that I would no longer get the
channel guide, and season passes would cease to work. However, what
happened is beyond unacceptable and as such I will never resubscribe
to TiVo.

Now, when I flip through channels, I get the message that my
subscription expired in the box that normally has the program's info.
I can not minimize the box to show only the channel like I could
before my subscription expired.

If it was just that, I could live with it. BUT, here's what really
gets me. I can't set up TiVo to record by time slot! I had read posts
saying you could do this with an expired unit, so maybe this is a
"new" feature. When I go to Pick Programs to Record - Record by Time
or Channel I get a message screen saying that my TiVo service is
Suspended. Wha?? I payed for the box, I should still be able to record
something if I set up the time.

*Rant off*

"Bao H. Lammy" shaped the electrons to say:
Can you provide a link that states this? Can you provide a

They stated it in one of the con calls I listened in on. It costs
more to license 'TiVo Basic' than just the basic software.

How much more, precisely, I have no idea. And, like most things, I
expect that's subject to change and negotiation.

Once TiVo gets more TiVo Basic units into the field they'll have some
data to work with. If the majority of users do upgrade, then it is in
their interest to make TiVo Basic very cheap, to get more units in the
field and thence more upgrades. If the majority stick with TiVo
Basic, then they may as well make their money off the license.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"Bao H. Lammy" shaped the electrons to say:
How do you figure that it has to call in more frequently? As it is,

They do, in fact, call in at the same interval.

Hell, they might even store more than 3 days of data internally - only
3 days are accessable though. Someone with a unit should be able to
test that if they haven't subscribed yet.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"Ted" shaped the electrons to say:
If you trying to say that you pay for the sfw by paying for the service that
is just wrong.

TiVo is a service. Period. The HW/SW is simply a way to access the
service. The only reason to buy the HW is to access the service.
That's perfectly fine, that's their business model and you can take it
or leave it. Buying a TiVo is like buying a cell phone that is locked
to one provider (common these days). You own the HW, and it has all
the SW it needs onboard to work, but unless you pay for the service it
is a doorstop. That's how a TiVo Series2 works. A Series1 was sold
with different limitations, so they do more when unsubbed. Like the
cell phone, you can hack your away around these issues in various ways
to 'unlock' the unit and use it with a different service, or no
service.

ReplayTV has always worked the same way. RTV is a *service* The HW
is meant to access the service.

Early on, up through the 4000 series, they sold the systems one way -
you bought the HW *with* a lifetime subscription to the service. That
generally cost *more* than buying a similar TiVo and then buying a
lifetime subscription, but they were in the same ballpark.

With the 4500 and 5000 units they switched to a TiVo model. You
bought the HW, but to use it you needed to activate it with a
subscription. Like TiVo you had the option of monthly or lifetime.

With the 5500 they've switched back to selling a bundled product - HW
+ subscription. Prices jumped back up. There is no option, you pay
for the service like it or not.

If you don't like paying for service, don't buy TiVo or RTV. It is
that simple. Buy one of the standalone DVRs on the market that work
like a VCR.

Why do people have so much trouble with such a simple concept?

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"Ted" shaped the electrons to say:
In the case of Dtivo the guide is free..

Actually it isn't. DTV is paying for it. They'll charge you $5/month
unless you have a high enough tier, then they'll toss it in free as a
perk.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"Ted" shaped the electrons to say:
Why doesn't tivo just charge a plain fee for the hardware and sfw? For the

Why are you so ignorant? You know about lifetime subscriptions,
right? Same damn thing as bundling the lifetime sub and selling it
for a higher price. You don't have to pay monthly. There is no
practical difference between paying $199 for the unit and $299 for the
sub and paying $498 for a unit with service bundled.

And if your beef is DirecTiVo - that's DirecTV, NOT TiVo! TiVo has 0,
none, nada, nothing to do with the subscription terms for DTiVo
anymore. Hasn't for a long time. They license the platform to DTV,
all end-user agreements, payments, etc, are with DTV. TiVo is not in
the loop. So if you don't like DTV eliminating the lifetime sub on
DTiVos, complain to DTV.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"MegaZone" wrote
Can you provide a link that states this? Can you provide a
They stated it in one of the con calls I listened in on. It costs
more to license 'TiVo Basic' than just the basic software.

What do you mean by the last sentence above? Do you mean
the software that runs Pioneer burners without any TiVo at all
is "just the basic software," or is there an even more-stripped
down version of TiVo UI software you referring to?


How much more, precisely, I have no idea. And, like most things, I
expect that's subject to change and negotiation.
Once TiVo gets more TiVo Basic units into the field they'll have some
data to work with. If the majority of users do upgrade, then it is in
their interest to make TiVo Basic very cheap, to get more units in the
field and thence more upgrades. If the majority stick with TiVo
Basic, then they may as well make their money off the license.

Since they can upgrade to full TiVo from TiVo Basic at any time,
I think it's to TiVo's advantage to get in people's homes any way
possible. Maybe someone wants to upgrade but needs to set
aside money every month for a while, for example.

And even if the majority never upgrade, so what? Who's to say
they would have gotten regular and full TiVo service if TiVo Basic
didn't exist? It helps TiVo claim a larger installed base (which helps
because they can tell this to advertisers; I assume TiVo Basic users
will still get TiVo marketing partnet/gold-star ads -- or is this a
wrong assumption?) and they also get free advertising for TiVo
when Pioneer boasts about TiVo in their own ads. Even if it is just
technically TiVo Basic when shipped, Pioneer doesn't really make
much of this point in its ads.

"David G." wrote in message ...

Tivo _is_ the service. You're just one of those people that gets all
worked up over nothing. You should be more concerned about your blood
pressure than your Tivo monthly fee that saves you more that the fee
itself in terms of time saved watching commercials and fighting your vcr
and it's lack of recording capacity. Just pay it and quit your rants.

Your one of those people who like to rant about other people, telling
them to stop ranting. I've already decided I am not going to
resubscribe. You selling me on TiVo's features is not going to change
my mind. Plus, my blood pressure is right where it should be. But
thank you for being concerned for my health.

I've recently found out about TiVo hacking, and got my recorder to
record by time without a subscription. I just had to upload an older
version of the TiVo software to the hard drive. This shows that when I
bought the unit, recording without a subscription was possible. For
some reason, TiVo decided that people shouldn't be able to do anything
at all with the hardware bought for hundreds of dollars unless that
person keeps giving them money. That TiVo now disables the record by
time feature by default on expired units is wrong.