"Jeff Rife" wrote
Bao H. Lammy ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
Maybe, just maybe, TiVo is providing TiVo Basic at next to no
cost (or no cost at all) to companies like Pioneer just to get their
foot in the living rooms of customers,
This would be the dumbest thing they have ever done, then, because those
TiVo/DVD boxes *will* drop in price (or become "not the latest thing")
and there will be *lots* of people who end up using them as nothing but
a DVR with TiVo Basic.
That's a lot of long-term cost that TiVo is willing
to absorb in the hopes that people upgrade.

People satisfied with TiVo Basic probably never would have
bought full TiVo. So even if only a few people upgrade from
TiVo Basic to full TiVo service, TiVo is ahead the way I see
things. On top of that, they get to claim a larger installed user
base by combining TiVo Basic + TiVo full service users, and
finally, they also get free advertising for TiVo in general when
people view Pioneer burner ads boasting about TiVo.


and that's why they have to
charge full price for an upgrade to full TiVo service.
I don't see that TiVo would be willing to start subsidizing hardware again.

It was different before when they were actually paying money
for subsidizing (or stock, or something more tangible). What I
see now is more like the free LE version software one gets when
one buys digital cameras, scanners, etc.

"Jeff Rife" wrote
So, basically, although the "TiVo Basic" subscription costs TiVo exactly
as much to maintain as "TiVo Plus" (or maybe more, if the dial-in is more
frequent because of the much shorter guide data),
[snip]

How do you figure that it has to call in more frequently? As it is,
the machines call in daily and have about 12 days of guide data
in advance. I don't see why a machine that is limited to 3 days of
guide data in advance would need to call in any more than daily.

On 30 Oct 2003 00:15:17 -0800, (Ken) wrote:


DAMNIT I bought a phone and used Verizon as my carrier but then I
didn't pay my phone bill and verzion cut me off!!! could you believe
it--I payed for the phone shouldn't I still be able to use it??!!

DAMNIT I bought a TV and used Time Warner Cable-I didn't pay my cable
bill so they turned off cable on me!!!! the nerve I payed for the TV
shouldn't I be able to use cable on it???!!!!


*Rant on*

Ok, well my credit card was over its limit, so I canceled it and let
TiVo expire for a while. I understood that I would no longer get the
channel guide, and season passes would cease to work. However, what
happened is beyond unacceptable and as such I will never resubscribe
to TiVo.

Now, when I flip through channels, I get the message that my
subscription expired in the box that normally has the program's info.
I can not minimize the box to show only the channel like I could
before my subscription expired.

If it was just that, I could live with it. BUT, here's what really
gets me. I can't set up TiVo to record by time slot! I had read posts
saying you could do this with an expired unit, so maybe this is a
"new" feature. When I go to Pick Programs to Record - Record by Time
or Channel I get a message screen saying that my TiVo service is
Suspended. Wha?? I payed for the box, I should still be able to record
something if I set up the time.

*Rant off*

"Bao H. Lammy" shaped the electrons to say:
Can you provide a link that states this? Can you provide a

They stated it in one of the con calls I listened in on. It costs
more to license 'TiVo Basic' than just the basic software.

How much more, precisely, I have no idea. And, like most things, I
expect that's subject to change and negotiation.

Once TiVo gets more TiVo Basic units into the field they'll have some
data to work with. If the majority of users do upgrade, then it is in
their interest to make TiVo Basic very cheap, to get more units in the
field and thence more upgrades. If the majority stick with TiVo
Basic, then they may as well make their money off the license.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"Bao H. Lammy" shaped the electrons to say:
How do you figure that it has to call in more frequently? As it is,

They do, in fact, call in at the same interval.

Hell, they might even store more than 3 days of data internally - only
3 days are accessable though. Someone with a unit should be able to
test that if they haven't subscribed yet.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"Ted" shaped the electrons to say:
If you trying to say that you pay for the sfw by paying for the service that
is just wrong.

TiVo is a service. Period. The HW/SW is simply a way to access the
service. The only reason to buy the HW is to access the service.
That's perfectly fine, that's their business model and you can take it
or leave it. Buying a TiVo is like buying a cell phone that is locked
to one provider (common these days). You own the HW, and it has all
the SW it needs onboard to work, but unless you pay for the service it
is a doorstop. That's how a TiVo Series2 works. A Series1 was sold
with different limitations, so they do more when unsubbed. Like the
cell phone, you can hack your away around these issues in various ways
to 'unlock' the unit and use it with a different service, or no
service.

ReplayTV has always worked the same way. RTV is a *service* The HW
is meant to access the service.

Early on, up through the 4000 series, they sold the systems one way -
you bought the HW *with* a lifetime subscription to the service. That
generally cost *more* than buying a similar TiVo and then buying a
lifetime subscription, but they were in the same ballpark.

With the 4500 and 5000 units they switched to a TiVo model. You
bought the HW, but to use it you needed to activate it with a
subscription. Like TiVo you had the option of monthly or lifetime.

With the 5500 they've switched back to selling a bundled product - HW
+ subscription. Prices jumped back up. There is no option, you pay
for the service like it or not.

If you don't like paying for service, don't buy TiVo or RTV. It is
that simple. Buy one of the standalone DVRs on the market that work
like a VCR.

Why do people have so much trouble with such a simple concept?

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"Ted" shaped the electrons to say:
In the case of Dtivo the guide is free..

Actually it isn't. DTV is paying for it. They'll charge you $5/month
unless you have a high enough tier, then they'll toss it in free as a
perk.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"Ted" shaped the electrons to say:
Why doesn't tivo just charge a plain fee for the hardware and sfw? For the

Why are you so ignorant? You know about lifetime subscriptions,
right? Same damn thing as bundling the lifetime sub and selling it
for a higher price. You don't have to pay monthly. There is no
practical difference between paying $199 for the unit and $299 for the
sub and paying $498 for a unit with service bundled.

And if your beef is DirecTiVo - that's DirecTV, NOT TiVo! TiVo has 0,
none, nada, nothing to do with the subscription terms for DTiVo
anymore. Hasn't for a long time. They license the platform to DTV,
all end-user agreements, payments, etc, are with DTV. TiVo is not in
the loop. So if you don't like DTV eliminating the lifetime sub on
DTiVos, complain to DTV.

-MZ, RHCE #806199299900541, ex-CISSP #3762
--
URL:mailto:megazoneatmegazone.org Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me.
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
URL:http://www.megazone.org/ URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/ Eris

"MegaZone" wrote
Can you provide a link that states this? Can you provide a
They stated it in one of the con calls I listened in on. It costs
more to license 'TiVo Basic' than just the basic software.

What do you mean by the last sentence above? Do you mean
the software that runs Pioneer burners without any TiVo at all
is "just the basic software," or is there an even more-stripped
down version of TiVo UI software you referring to?


How much more, precisely, I have no idea. And, like most things, I
expect that's subject to change and negotiation.
Once TiVo gets more TiVo Basic units into the field they'll have some
data to work with. If the majority of users do upgrade, then it is in
their interest to make TiVo Basic very cheap, to get more units in the
field and thence more upgrades. If the majority stick with TiVo
Basic, then they may as well make their money off the license.

Since they can upgrade to full TiVo from TiVo Basic at any time,
I think it's to TiVo's advantage to get in people's homes any way
possible. Maybe someone wants to upgrade but needs to set
aside money every month for a while, for example.

And even if the majority never upgrade, so what? Who's to say
they would have gotten regular and full TiVo service if TiVo Basic
didn't exist? It helps TiVo claim a larger installed base (which helps
because they can tell this to advertisers; I assume TiVo Basic users
will still get TiVo marketing partnet/gold-star ads -- or is this a
wrong assumption?) and they also get free advertising for TiVo
when Pioneer boasts about TiVo in their own ads. Even if it is just
technically TiVo Basic when shipped, Pioneer doesn't really make
much of this point in its ads.

"David G." wrote in message ...

Tivo _is_ the service. You're just one of those people that gets all
worked up over nothing. You should be more concerned about your blood
pressure than your Tivo monthly fee that saves you more that the fee
itself in terms of time saved watching commercials and fighting your vcr
and it's lack of recording capacity. Just pay it and quit your rants.

Your one of those people who like to rant about other people, telling
them to stop ranting. I've already decided I am not going to
resubscribe. You selling me on TiVo's features is not going to change
my mind. Plus, my blood pressure is right where it should be. But
thank you for being concerned for my health.

I've recently found out about TiVo hacking, and got my recorder to
record by time without a subscription. I just had to upload an older
version of the TiVo software to the hard drive. This shows that when I
bought the unit, recording without a subscription was possible. For
some reason, TiVo decided that people shouldn't be able to do anything
at all with the hardware bought for hundreds of dollars unless that
person keeps giving them money. That TiVo now disables the record by
time feature by default on expired units is wrong.