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Chet Hayes ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
Manufacturer's aren't dumb enough to offer identical units, with the only difference being the tuner. When given a choice, consumers are buying the non-tuner products instead of the ones with tuners. These two statements show you aren't making sense. Since consumers *aren't* given a choice about tuners (you just said so...units have *other* factors that are different as well as tuner/no tuner), they choose based on things other than ATSC tuners. A primary factor is what the stores push, and for the past 6 months, stores are pushing sets without tuners because those sets make the most money for the store. They are the high-margin plasmas and the discontinued no-tuner models that the stores get a discount on. -- Jeff Rife | "I feel the need...the need for SPAM bait: | expeditious velocity" | | -- Brain |
Matthew L. Martin wrote:
I challenge you, again, to post two things that the FCC could do that would advance HDTV more than the tuner mandate. Matthew Allow COFDM modulation and drop the mandate. Or they could mandate 5th gen 8-VSB receivers with conditional access modules. The COFDM option would create a firestorm of activity and 8-VSB would disappear overnight. Bob Miller |
Bob Miller wrote:
Matthew L. Martin wrote: I challenge you, again, to post two things that the FCC could do that would advance HDTV more than the tuner mandate. Matthew Allow COFDM modulation and drop the mandate. Or they could mandate 5th gen 8-VSB receivers with conditional access modules. The COFDM option would create a firestorm of activity and 8-VSB would disappear overnight. Bob Miller Still not answering me, are you Bob. Chip -- -------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ -------------------- Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB |
Bob Miller wrote:
Matthew L. Martin wrote: I challenge you, again, to post two things that the FCC could do that would advance HDTV more than the tuner mandate. Matthew Allow COFDM modulation and drop the mandate. Which would kill the DTV rollout for at least 5 years. That would really advance HDTV ... NOT!! Or they could mandate 5th gen 8-VSB receivers with conditional access modules. Did you see what I wrote? You must have, you snipped it. If the FCC had mandated a cable ready ATSC tuner with CAM for all DTVs day one, almost _+everyone+_ would use it. The COFDM option would create a firestorm of activity and 8-VSB would disappear overnight. ROFLMAOPIMP! Matthew -- Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game You can't win You can't break even You can't get out of the game |
Matthew L. Martin wrote:
Bob Miller wrote: Matthew L. Martin wrote: I challenge you, again, to post two things that the FCC could do that would advance HDTV more than the tuner mandate. Matthew Allow COFDM modulation and drop the mandate. Which would kill the DTV rollout for at least 5 years. That would really advance HDTV ... NOT!! Or they could mandate 5th gen 8-VSB receivers with conditional access modules. Did you see what I wrote? You must have, you snipped it. If the FCC had mandated a cable ready ATSC tuner with CAM for all DTVs day one, almost _+everyone+_ would use it. The COFDM option would create a firestorm of activity and 8-VSB would disappear overnight. ROFLMAOPIMP! Matthew I would not include the cable ready. COFDM has created a firestorm of activity in each country that has deployed it except Australia. Australia is only selling 8 times the number of receivers that are being sold in the US per capita. In the UK they will sell a million COFDM receivers this quarter. That would be SIX MILLION in the US in NINETY DAYS. In only two years they will have sold over FIVE million with THREE million coming this year. Actually I think it will come in at 3.5 million. That would be TWENTY ONE million in one year in the US. In the UK the satellite service, SKY, that has 7 million subscribers is running scared as it is expected that the COFDM terrestrial service will overtake them after only THREE years in competition. COFDM will have gone from ZERO to EIGHT million in three years. Eight million would be FORTY EIGHT million in the US. If we had allowed COFDM in January 2000 instead of reaffirming 8-VSB and had sales equal to the sales pace of the UK we would now have EIGHTY FOUR million COFDM HDTV receivers in the US conservatively. Conservatively because that is assuming that the rate of purchase will not continue to accelerate in the UK. But it will continue to accelerate!! Next year in the UK they will sell almost FIVE million COFDM receivers. In Italy they sold THREE million receivers the first year. In Japan with only three cities online with HDTV they have sold 1.6 million integrated HD sets. In the US if we had started with COFDM in 2000 we would have had free COFDM HDTV receivers being offered within six months of COFDM being allowed. This would have been true of at least four different OTA ventures that I know of. NONE of those ventures happened because no one could succeed with 8-VSB. Free receivers and a plethora of innovative subscription services would have accelerated the US DTV transition at an even higher rate than sales in the UK, Berlin, Tokyo or Italy. The transition would be OVER by now or we would be rapidly approaching 85% of households with receivers. The numbers above suggest we could have had sales of 84 million receivers by now conservatively. There are 109 million households in the US. 84 million represents 77% of those households. Cable rates would be lower. Channels 52 thru 69 would have been successfully auctioned off by now at far higher prices than the three that were auctioned. New innovative services would already be being offered on those channels. And the number of people watching HD and the amount of HD would be far more than we have now. 8-VSB was just an incredibly bad mistake. A lot of what would have happened from 2001 to now will begin to happen next year but at a slower pace with the introduction of the 5th gen receiver. Bob Miller |
Bob Miller wrote:
Matthew L. Martin wrote: Bob Miller wrote: Matthew L. Martin wrote: I challenge you, again, to post two things that the FCC could do that would advance HDTV more than the tuner mandate. Matthew Allow COFDM modulation and drop the mandate. Which would kill the DTV rollout for at least 5 years. That would really advance HDTV ... NOT!! Or they could mandate 5th gen 8-VSB receivers with conditional access modules. Did you see what I wrote? You must have, you snipped it. If the FCC had mandated a cable ready ATSC tuner with CAM for all DTVs day one, almost _+everyone+_ would use it. The COFDM option would create a firestorm of activity and 8-VSB would disappear overnight. ROFLMAOPIMP! Matthew I would not include the cable ready. COFDM has created a firestorm of activity in each country that has deployed it except Australia. Australia is only selling 8 times the number of receivers that are being sold in the US per capita. In the UK they will sell a million COFDM receivers this quarter. That would be SIX MILLION in the US in NINETY DAYS. In only two years they will have sold over FIVE million with THREE million coming this year. Actually I think it will come in at 3.5 million. That would be TWENTY ONE million in one year in the US. In the UK the satellite service, SKY, that has 7 million subscribers is running scared as it is expected that the COFDM terrestrial service will overtake them after only THREE years in competition. COFDM will have gone from ZERO to EIGHT million in three years. Eight million would be FORTY EIGHT million in the US. If we had allowed COFDM in January 2000 instead of reaffirming 8-VSB and had sales equal to the sales pace of the UK we would now have EIGHTY FOUR million COFDM HDTV receivers in the US conservatively. Conservatively because that is assuming that the rate of purchase will not continue to accelerate in the UK. But it will continue to accelerate!! Next year in the UK they will sell almost FIVE million COFDM receivers. In Italy they sold THREE million receivers the first year. In Japan with only three cities online with HDTV they have sold 1.6 million integrated HD sets. In the US if we had started with COFDM in 2000 we would have had free COFDM HDTV receivers being offered within six months of COFDM being allowed. This would have been true of at least four different OTA ventures that I know of. NONE of those ventures happened because no one could succeed with 8-VSB. Free receivers and a plethora of innovative subscription services would have accelerated the US DTV transition at an even higher rate than sales in the UK, Berlin, Tokyo or Italy. The transition would be OVER by now or we would be rapidly approaching 85% of households with receivers. The numbers above suggest we could have had sales of 84 million receivers by now conservatively. There are 109 million households in the US. 84 million represents 77% of those households. Cable rates would be lower. Channels 52 thru 69 would have been successfully auctioned off by now at far higher prices than the three that were auctioned. New innovative services would already be being offered on those channels. And the number of people watching HD and the amount of HD would be far more than we have now. 8-VSB was just an incredibly bad mistake. A lot of what would have happened from 2001 to now will begin to happen next year but at a slower pace with the introduction of the 5th gen receiver. Bob Miller So, how many of these millions of receivers sold worldwide are HD? Chip -- -------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ -------------------- Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB |
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Bob Miller wrote: In the UK they will sell a million COFDM receivers this quarter. That would be SIX MILLION in the US in NINETY DAYS. Hmmm, isn't 90 days a quarter. actually a quarter equals 91.3125 days, but who's counting? In only two years they will have sold over FIVE million with THREE million coming this year. Actually I think it will come in at 3.5 million. That would be TWENTY ONE million in one year in the US. How long did it take Cable to hit just 1 million back in the 60's when Community Antenna Tele Vision (CATV) became available? How long did it take DirecTv and Dish Network to get just 1 million subscribers each? Personally, I can't answer these right now. I haven't done the research, but I know it was longer than a couple of years each. So, Not a valid argument. In the UK the satellite service, SKY, that has 7 million subscribers is running scared as it is expected that the Why don't we just substitute Over The Air Digital Television for COFDM for a more accurate description of what 'SKY' is afraid of. It's not COFDM that they're afraid of, it's the fact that Digital Television Over the Air is free. Now That's what they're afraid of. (I'VE EDITED THE REMAINDER OF YOUR POST WHEN AND WHERE PRATICAL TO SHOW THE CORRECT VERBAGE OF DIGITAL TELEVISION OVER-THE-AIR IN PLACE OF cofdm or 8-vsb.) Ø (Free) DIGITAL TELEVISION OVER-THE-AIR terrestrial service will overtake them after only THREE years in competition. DIGITAL TELEVISION OVER-THE-AIR will have gone from ZERO to EIGHT million in three years. Eight million would be FORTY EIGHT million in the US. ..If we had allowed COFDM in January 2000 instead of reaffirming 8-VSB Ø Ø (SHOULD BE EDITED TO READ AS FOLLOWS: ..If we had mandated Digital Over-The-Air receivers in January, 2000 instead of waiting for 2004/2005 then we would have sales equal to 84 million, instead we..) Don't you get it? It's not COFDM vs. 8-VSB. That's over and done with. It's a mute point. It's water-under-the bridge. The standard for EACH country HAS been decided. It's no longer up for debate. What it is; its pay cable and satellite vs. Free Over-The-Air television. It's Time Warner, Comcast, Charter, and the other cable companies against free Over-The-Air. Alright, I'll agree that the satellite companies are now equipped with OTA receivers that get the local channels, but, you're still stuck paying high fees for the rest of your content, but it's the local cable companies that don't want you getting a good Over-The-Air signal. When you get a good Digital Television signal, no matter how it's modulated, the cable company WILL loose a bunch of subscribers! I'm going to be one of them as soon as I can get each set at home an OTA receiver. My personal pocket book ain't deep enough to buy one for each television that I have right now, but It'll happen. And, then, I'll tell cable to take their $80.00 + a month bill and shove it. That's why you don't see ads for the OTA STB's yet! When the time comes, and it's just a few short months away, you WILL be seeing all types of advertising in newspapers, magazines, and of course radio and television for all sort of over-the-air receivers. Ø Ø and had sales equal to the sales pace of the UK.... we would now have EIGHTY FOUR million DIGITAL TELEVISION OVER-THE-AIR HDTV receivers in the US conservatively. Conservatively because that is assuming that the rate of purchase will not continue to accelerate in the UK. But it will continue to accelerate!! Next year in the UK they will sell almost FIVE million DIGITAL TELEVISION OVER-THE-AIR receivers. In Italy they sold THREE million receivers the first year. In Japan with only three cities online with HDTV they have sold 1.6 million integrated HD sets. Ø Ø All in HOW and WHEN the respective governments mandated their switch-over to a Digital transmission. We (The United States) are a much larger nation (both in population and physical area), with a whole different set of operational problems and responsibilities than other countries. In the US if we had started with COFDM in 2000 Hmmm, didn't we start broadcasting Digital in 98 with testing much earlier than that? Ø Ø we would have had free COFDM HDTV receivers being offered within six months of COFDM being allowed. This would have been true of at least four different OTA ventures that I know of. Ø Any or all of these had your money, right? Ø NONE of those ventures happened because no one could succeed with 8-VSB. Wow, a thought just struck me, If you'd had invested in 8-VSB, you'd be all over the other countries because they'd decided to go with the inferior product. Ø Ø Ø Free receivers and a plethora of innovative subscription services would have accelerated the US DTV transition at an even higher rate than sales in the UK, Berlin, Tokyo or Italy. Ø Ø See my reply above about cable. The transition would be OVER by now or we would be rapidly approaching 85% of households with receivers. The numbers above suggest we could have had sales of 84 million receivers by now conservatively. There are 109 million households in the US. 84 million represents 77% of those households. Cable rates would be lower. Channels 52 thru 69 would have been successfully auctioned off by now at far higher prices than the three that were auctioned. New innovative services would already be being offered on those channels. And the number of people watching HD and the amount of HD would be far more than we have now. 8-VSB was just an incredibly bad mistake. A lot of what would have happened from 2001 to now will begin to happen next year but at a slower pace with the introduction of the 5th gen receiver. Ø Ø The current receivers (I currently have 2, one at home an LG 3510, and the Wal-Mart USDigital at work), and they both work just fine. I guarantee that I'm just happy that I'm getting digital television over analog. I really don't care what modulation is being used, it's the fact that I'm getting a pristine picture, and I wasn't before. Ø Ø Russ Bob Miller |
kw5kw wrote:
Ø The current receivers (I currently have 2, one at home an LG 3510, and the Wal-Mart USDigital at work), and they both work just fine. I guarantee that I'm just happy that I'm getting digital television over analog. I really don't care what modulation is being used, it's the fact that I'm getting a pristine picture, and I wasn't before. Ø Ø Russ You say I don't get it. I am afraid you don't get it. It is the modulation. The fact that you and many other get decent reception with an 8-VSB receiver is not the question or the answer. The reason that millions of receivers are being sold in other countries using COFDM while in the US few receivers are being sold is that there is NO business plan that works for manufacturers, retailers or broadcasters using the current 8-VSB receivers. The ONLY business that has appeared that has TRIED to do something with 8-VSB has been USDTV. I say that because ALL US broadcasters till now have been doing NOTHING with OTA digital but the MINIMUM while they go on making money with analog broadcasting. In fact broadcasters are still doing everything they can to delay the transition for as long as possible. They are even willing to go on broadcasting both digital and analog which cost them a lot of money. They will do anything to keep the digital transition from happening. Just today they formed a NEW coalition dedicated to DELAY. http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...&referral=SUPP You can't start or predicate your business model on a modulation as flawed as 8-VSB. If you could we would be doing it right now. We tested the 5th generation receiver from LG precisely because of this. We are now considering a venture with 8-VSB because of 5th generation receivers. We couldn't before 5th generation. NO one could. Not broadcasters, not WOW, not a dozen other companies that tried or thought about it. Something that works a little doesn't cut it. Something that works OK, 5th gen, will do a lot better. COFDM would have created hundreds of new ventures and a thousand products just like it is doing in many parts of the world. 8-VSB just stymied everything. Still is. But the 5th gen receivers will generate many ventures with new ideas. One thing that the first decent 8-VSB receiver will generate is a demand by broadcasters in a few years for COFDM. What a minimally workable 5th gen receiver will do is awaken broadcasters to the potential of OTA broadcasting digital and that will focus there attention on the madness that is 8-VSB. But what will drive them completely insane is the reality that other ventures using COFDM will take away their OTA broadcasting business. Broadcasters have not paid much attention to their OTA broadcasting for years. It was that disinterest that allowed 8-VSB to be chosen by default. When they do 8-VSB is history. Bob Miller |
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