|
|
Bob Miller wrote:
Japan for instance has sold 1.6 million HDTV receivers in just the last 11 months and 99% of them are integrated HDTV sets that include ISDB-T COFDM receivers. What percentage of the HD displays available for sale in Japan are monitors? Matthew |
Bob Miller wrote:
Matthew L. Martin wrote: Bob Miller wrote: Bad analogy. Not at all. I think it is an excellent analogy. The average consumer does not care what the enabling technology is. Matthew Obviously the consumer doesn't care what the enabling tech is. You ignore the fact that I agreed with that statement. The consumer can not know the technology behind most of what they buy. I have no idea what technology drives my refrigerator. kw%kw said that "It's not the same as being able to choose Chevrolet, Ford or Honda for your transportation". I disagree. Most consumers know little about the technology behind their car purchase or their TV purchase. My point is that consumers use many sources for information on their purchases. Using those sources they have decided that OTA 8-VSB receivers are a bad bargain and they have avoided them EVEN when they buy an HDTV set. While in other countries virtually every HD includes a receiver or is purchased with a receiver. Japan for instance has sold 1.6 million HDTV receivers in just the last 11 months and 99% of them are integrated HDTV sets that include ISDB-T COFDM receivers. This is just not happening in the US, Canada or Mexico. I don't know the figures on s. Korea. The 8-VSB OTA receiver business in the US is a total disaster. Bob Miller Bob you ignorant slut. People haven't bought integrated 8-VSB receivers because most people don't need them. Most people get their HD from cable or OTA through their dbs receivers, so they don't need them in their televisions. Moron. Chip -- -------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ -------------------- Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB |
Using those sources they have decided that OTA 8-VSB
receivers are a bad bargain and they have avoided them EVEN when they buy an HDTV set. BOB, you're so full of **** I can smell it from here. How do you KNOW why the consumer bought or didn't buy something. Are you using 'exit polls'. You are utterly unreal. I'd be willing to bet that most don't buy them because they are buying a satellite receiver which already HAS THEM. |
Most people get their HD from cable or OTA through
their dbs receivers, so they don't need them in their televisions. Please don't burden our Resident Snake Oil Salesman with facts, it disturbs him and he'll tend to ignore them to maintain his ignorance. |
"Bob Miller" wrote in message ink.net... : kw5kw wrote: : In the case of 8-VSB receivers : the public specifically AVOIDED : : BULL****, BULL****, BULL****... The general public has no clue what : 8-VSB or what COFDM is NOR do they care. It's not the same as being : able to choose Chevrolet, Ford or Honda for your transportation. It's : an internal mechanism for making Digital Television work. The general : public don't know how it works, hell most people don't know how TCP/IP : works either, do they care, or do they have a choise? No they don't. : They don't care nor do they have a choise. Although, it might be that : IPX/SPX might work better than TCP/IP. : : Do you have a thought on that Bob, which is better IPX/SPX or TCP/IP? : Do you have a choise? I want you to use IPX/SPX from now own Bob, : that way you can't communictate with us. : : Bad analogy. wrong, it was the perfect analogy. Or do even you know the difference between IPX/SPX and TCP/IP? : People do have a choice. They do not have to know everything about the : choice to make it. They rely on friends, personel experience, word of : mouth, retail personel and advertising to decide what to buy. Almost : every purchase you make is dependent on the above information channels : and others. : : No one knows that much about the cars they purchase. Again you're so full of it. I've worked for GM for the past 4 years, and for Ford for the 30 years before that. I've been in the car business since 1969, and let me tell you, buddy, people DO know about their cars, and what makes them tick. Now, I'll grant you, that a few people "don't know where to put in the gas." but they're in the major minority. Cars are probably the most investigated thing on the internet... no facts or figures to back that up, but damn, they know about cars. What's the HP at X r.p.m.? How much is the GVWR and the towing weight? What's the fuel economy of the 3.4L compared to the 3.6L supercharged one? The customers ask, but they know what to ask! : They rely on a lot : of different sources of info and they do make and have a choice in the : purchase of a car and most people make an informed choice without having : a clue how disc brakes work or any of the hundreds of technologies that : go into a modern car. : : In the case of 8-VSB the word of mouth is real bad. Just look at the : AVSForum where every so often a poster will say that they are going to : put off buying OTA receiver because of all the problems posted there. This is 90% of the average Joe customer (including me before I bought my LCD HD monitor (and I consider my self educated. I'm the IT manager of my company, so I know about TCP/IP, and subnetting my class B network. And, I hold an advanced amateur radio operator license, hense the KW5KW, so I do know about such things as VHF, UHF, Sideband, Frequency Modulation, ERP, Yagi's, etc.)) who goes out to look at a new television set. What I asked: "Is it HD?", "How much is it?", "What's the warranty?" , "Can you deliver it today... tomorrow?" Hell most consumers don't even know the difference between SD, ED and HD, so how do YOU expect the average Joe Customer to know the frickin' difference between the way that a radio signal is modulated? I know about it, I never asked. Again, just ask any average Joe Customer what the "M" in AM or FM means, if they can't even tell that, how do you expect them to know about the different modulation techniques of digital RF signal transmission? God, you are so full of it. Try this. Just go to any CC or BB and hang around for a while and listen, do (will) you ever hear this question, "By the way, is that integrated tuner capable of receiveing both analog and digital signals?" Or, you'll NEVER hear this question, "And, is the set using 8-VSG or CODFM?" God, It's such a mute question in the THE UNITED STATES. I don't live in Japan, or China, or France, and quite frankly I don't give a flying leap of what they use there. I don't receive their signals. Heck, for the past what, 60 years or so, we've been using NTSC and they've been on PAL, that never bothered me, did it bother you? I never received skip from France in Texas to test my PAL reciver, damn, I'm so dissappointed. : There is NO advertising for OTA receivers. It's, once again, the good ole USA, where 70% of the population gets their television signal thru either cable or satellite. Less than 30% of the population rely on an antenna. Why should they? Unless you live in a huge city, you'll have only 4 or 5 stations to choose from. Larger markets will have many more. I live in DFW, and we have 16 stations that broadcast here (all in digital as well). Sixteen verses 100+ for any cable or satellite. Cable gets my vote, they carry poker tourneys on cable. Tried satellite, but I really prefer cable, more... much more... LOCAL content that satellite just can't give you. Cable will give these consumers their 'digital, high defination' television. And, as blackout date aproaches, you'll begin to see many more STB's advertised. The fact that Wal-Mart has one for less than $200.00 right now is a clue that the day is comming when you'll see STB's in stores for less than $20.00 for ones that will "upgrade" old rf only sets so that they'll be able to still receive a signal over the air. My Mother and Father-in-Law are about as technology poor as anyone left alive. Heck, they just got them a cordless phone last year. They have no clue that the day, when their little 18" color RCA will go snowy, is getting closer and closer. And, since "We know what is best for us.", I'll let them find out for themselves. ... Anyway, that's a very long story for another day, and another group. : There are few receivers in : stores and we here all the time about open box specials which suggest : someone else was not too happy with their purchase. The FCC has had to : mandate receivers in TV sets it is so bad. There are few manufacturers : making 8-VSB receivers. Store personel are not informed. : : All of this is a result of the modulation being bad. In other countries But, in the good ole USA there is nothing but 8-VSB. I don't care what any other country uses. I only care about what "I" use here in Texas which is in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, and here we use 8-VSB. : where they have a decent modulation all this is reversed. There is a lot : of advertising, retail personel are educated, the word of mouth is : ecstatic and sales are incredible. And the population is smaller, the size of the countries are less than the size of the state of Texas. Yeah, I can see using an inferior product in nations where the average coverage area is about the size of New Mexico and Arizona. It would be feasable to use a product in such a small area. But, in the USA, we need a dependable product, one that will service the most people in the huge land mass that we have. The day will come when the American public will know that they will have to have at least a new set top box to receive television. I've know about it for years, but haven't actually needed one yet. Still don't actually 'need' one. Hell, none of us 'need' one yet. The people that frequent this group have one, we're the first. I've got satellite radio, had it since 2001. I had my DSS dish in 96. I had my VCR in 78 (recorded all of the Battlestar Gallectia's when they were on ABC first run). I had a 9" B&W, VCR with a power inverter in my '77 Ford Econoline, when my children were 3 and 4 years old. They watched cartoons on long (2 hours or longer) trips. I was a storm chaser in the 80's... long before Twister came out. Anyway, almost everyone now has cable/satellite television and VCR's or Tivo's. LCD screens that fold down can be had in any SUV, and lots of people are 'thrilled' by storm chasers. The day will come when people know about DTV and it's varients SDTV, EDTV and HDTV. They will know that they'll have to have a tuner of some sort, be it supplied by cable, satellite company, or an over the air box inorder to receive digital broadcasts. They'll know, but right now, most are consumed by their children's little league games, soccer, movies or whatever, and right now they're just like Rhett Butler... "Frankly, ... I don't give a damn." One of these day's they'll wake up and they will have to and they will. But, It won't be a decision between CODFM or 8-VSB, It'll be, "Which looks better dear, the silver trim or the black?" : : People in other countries who do not know the difference between COFDM : and 8-VSB are making informed decisions to buy COFDM receivers in mass. Again, they don't have a choice, as COFDM is the only thing offered in their countries, not unless each and every station broadcasts a signal on three different transmitters, one using 8-VSB, one using COFDM, and one using whaever analog signal that they were using before the switch. Then consumers would have a choise, just like Beta and VHS or Apple and/or PC. Then and only then would people be able to choose, and then they would have to be informed in order to make that choise. Unless that happens, it's a MOOT POINT, It ain't gonna change. Now, It's your mission to leave this newsgroup alone with the b/s that people make the choise, they don't choose, governments and the ITU made the choise, not the general public. : And they don't have any more clue about the cars they buy either. They : are informed just as we in the US are from many sources. : : Bob Miller : |
Matthew L. Martin wrote:
Bob Miller wrote: Matthew L. Martin wrote: Chet Hayes wrote: BTW, what ever happened to the notion that this wasn't going to happen, that the tuners would roll in at no noticeable cost? If you did some research you would find that many integrated HDTVs have an MSRP less than the HD monitors that they are replacing. WalMart has a direct view HDTV for under $800. Matthew The point is not about replacement units it is about the same current model units with and without tuners. In fact that is the issue in the original article. The CEA wants to eliminate the possibility that the consumer can choose between the two by eliminating those with no tuners. You are really being moronic. Please cite a single instance of otherwise identical units (with no other difference than an ATSC tuner) selling at that level of price difference. bob? bob? Chet? Anyone? Anyone? ... Buellar? Matthew -- Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game You can't win You can't break even You can't get out of the game |
"Matthew L. Martin" wrote in message ...
Matthew L. Martin wrote: Bob Miller wrote: Matthew L. Martin wrote: Chet Hayes wrote: BTW, what ever happened to the notion that this wasn't going to happen, that the tuners would roll in at no noticeable cost? If you did some research you would find that many integrated HDTVs have an MSRP less than the HD monitors that they are replacing. WalMart has a direct view HDTV for under $800. Matthew The point is not about replacement units it is about the same current model units with and without tuners. In fact that is the issue in the original article. The CEA wants to eliminate the possibility that the consumer can choose between the two by eliminating those with no tuners. You are really being moronic. Please cite a single instance of otherwise identical units (with no other difference than an ATSC tuner) selling at that level of price difference. bob? bob? Chet? Anyone? Anyone? ... Buellar? Matthew Of course, you realize this is a specious argument. Manufacturer's aren't dumb enough to offer identical units, with the only difference being the tuner. They have to try to disguise and hide the cost to consumers, but it ain't working. I don't think it gets any more clear than from this statement by the CERC: "CERC believes the proposed modification will eliminate the unintended consequences of the Commission's 50 percent requirements that became apparent only recently, but threaten to impede the DTV transition," said CERC Executive Director Marc Pearl. "In practice, the 50-percent requirement has proven to be unduly disruptive. It creates an artificial scarcity of products without tuners, providing an incentive for retailers to assure their supplies of these non-tuner products. This is the opposite result from the one sought by the commission, and by retailers, as a matter of public policy. Accelerating the100 percent obligation would eliminate that situation." Is that statement from retailers not clear enough? When given a choice, consumers are buying the non-tuner products instead of the ones with tuners. You would have us believe it's because they are too stupid to realize they are getting a free ATSC tuner. In reality, it's because they refuse to pay for something most will never use. What I'd really like to know, is why you think forcing consumers to pay for something most will never use, is justified, or even has much positive impact on advancing HDTV. The ever increasing majority of folks with cable or sat, have no use for the tuner, yet you insist they pay for it. And the minority receiving only via OTA are not the folks that are likely to walk in and buy a new HD TV anytime soon anyway, because most of them are very cost conscious consumers, which is why they don't have cable/sat. There were plenty of other things that could have been done years ago that would have been big positives, but this one, now, is just plain stupid. And this from a govt that sues MSFT when they decide to add new software features for free that consumers actually want and use. |
Guess Bob didn't read my last post.
|
Chet Hayes wrote:
"Matthew L. Martin" wrote in message ... Matthew L. Martin wrote: Bob Miller wrote: Matthew L. Martin wrote: Chet Hayes wrote: BTW, what ever happened to the notion that this wasn't going to happen, that the tuners would roll in at no noticeable cost? If you did some research you would find that many integrated HDTVs have an MSRP less than the HD monitors that they are replacing. WalMart has a direct view HDTV for under $800. Matthew The point is not about replacement units it is about the same current model units with and without tuners. In fact that is the issue in the original article. The CEA wants to eliminate the possibility that the consumer can choose between the two by eliminating those with no tuners. You are really being moronic. Please cite a single instance of otherwise identical units (with no other difference than an ATSC tuner) selling at that level of price difference. bob? bob? Chet? Anyone? Anyone? ... Buellar? Matthew Of course, you realize this is a specious argument. Manufacturer's aren't dumb enough to offer identical units, with the only difference being the tuner. They would if they thought that there was a market for the the same feature set without a tuner. They have to try to disguise and hide the cost to consumers, but it ain't working. I'd like to see some proof of that assertion. I don't think it gets any more clear than from this statement by the CERC: "CERC believes the proposed modification will eliminate the unintended consequences of the Commission's 50 percent requirements that became apparent only recently, but threaten to impede the DTV transition," said CERC Executive Director Marc Pearl. "In practice, the 50-percent requirement has proven to be unduly disruptive. It creates an artificial scarcity of products without tuners, providing an incentive for retailers to assure their supplies of these non-tuner products. This is the opposite result from the one sought by the commission, and by retailers, as a matter of public policy. Accelerating the100 percent obligation would eliminate that situation." Is that statement from retailers not clear enough? When given a choice, consumers are buying the non-tuner products instead of the ones with tuners. You would have us believe it's because they are too stupid to realize they are getting a free ATSC tuner. In reality, it's because they refuse to pay for something most will never use. There is actually no basis for that conclusion. If the margins on displays without tuners is greater than the margin on displays with tuners, the retailers will disproportionately stock the higher margin product. Consumers seldom buy what consumers can't find in stores. What I'd really like to know, is why you think forcing consumers to pay for something most will never use, is justified, or even has much positive impact on advancing HDTV. Once again, If the FCC had mandated a cable ready ATSC tuner with CAM for all DTVs day one, almost _+everyone+_ would use it. There were plenty of other things that could have been done years ago that would have been big positives, but this one, now, is just plain stupid. And this from a govt that sues MSFT when they decide to add new software features for free that consumers actually want and use. I challenge you, again, to post two things that the FCC could do that would advance HDTV more than the tuner mandate. Matthew -- Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game You can't win You can't break even You can't get out of the game |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:33 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HomeCinemaBanter.com