Bob Miller wrote:
Chet Hayes wrote:
Jeff Rife wrote in message
...

Matthew L. Martin ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:

Yes, I agree! Only difference is the cost of these useless tuners is
a lot less than the ones currently being mandated for HD.

If the FCC had mandated digital cable ready ATSC tuners day one, they
would be cheap by now, too.

Correct.

Secondly, nobody really knows how much an NTSC cable/OTA tuner adds to
the price of a set. Last I looked, a standalone NTSC cable/OTA tuner
cost around $80 (although I'm sure there are places you can get them
cheaper if you hunt).

With standalone ATSC tuners selling for $200, I'm not sure the real
cost of the tuner is much different, and that's without a full mandate
for the ATSC tuner that would allow economies of scale.



For arguments sake, suppose it cost $100. What you want is the vast
majority of consumers, who will never use the thing because they have
cable or sat, to pay for it. Multiply out how much consumer money is
being poured down the drain. And exactly what is the purpose? It's
like forcing PC manufacturers to install quality stereo sound or a DVD
player early in the technology lifecycle in every PC so some get a
free ride, while others unfairly pay for it.

There are many things the FCC could have done to hasten the adoption
of digital TV, but this is one that makes the least sense.

Like pick a real modulation system instead of the junk that is 8-VSB.

Waaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chip

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Matthew L. Martin wrote:
Chet Hayes wrote:


There are many things the FCC could have done to hasten the adoption
of digital TV, but this is one that makes the least sense.


Cite two things that the FCC could have done that make more sense than
insisting that the enabling technolgy be available day one?

Matthew

Test and chose a decent modulation system.
Leave the market alone after all we preach that to everyone else.
Republican administration and they are MANDATING???

NO other country has seen fit to MANDATE consumers buy a DTV receiver
and ALL other countries using COFDM are doing far better than the US in
sales of such "enabling technology". And not some day, NOW. IT IS
AVAILABLE NOW in all countries using COFDM.

The first MINIMALLY acceptable 8-VSB receiver will be available sometime
next year. We have been waiting since 1998. WHY? What incredible benefit
does 8-VSB bring to the table that we are required to wait for 7 years?

Bob Miller

Bob Miller wrote:

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

Chet Hayes wrote:


There are many things the FCC could have done to hasten the adoption
of digital TV, but this is one that makes the least sense.



Cite two things that the FCC could have done that make more sense than
insisting that the enabling technolgy be available day one?

Matthew


Test and chose a decent modulation system.

They did that.

That's one.

Matthew

Bob Miller wrote:
Matthew L. Martin wrote:
Chet Hayes wrote:


There are many things the FCC could have done to hasten the adoption
of digital TV, but this is one that makes the least sense.


Cite two things that the FCC could have done that make more sense than
insisting that the enabling technolgy be available day one?

Matthew

Test and chose a decent modulation system.
Leave the market alone after all we preach that to everyone else.
Republican administration and they are MANDATING???

NO other country has seen fit to MANDATE consumers buy a DTV receiver
and ALL other countries using COFDM are doing far better than the US in
sales of such "enabling technology". And not some day, NOW. IT IS
AVAILABLE NOW in all countries using COFDM.

The first MINIMALLY acceptable 8-VSB receiver will be available sometime
next year. We have been waiting since 1998. WHY? What incredible benefit
does 8-VSB bring to the table that we are required to wait for 7 years?

Bob Miller

I have a Sony HD200 and LG 3200a. Both are excellent OTA HD receivers,
FAR beyond minimally acceptable. What an idiot you are Bob.
Chip

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Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

Chet Hayes ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
That's funny, I thought CBS and Dan Rather had the lock on the
laughing stock of the broadcast industry. Or if what they did wasn't
bad enough, how about the genius at CBS that cut off the ending of
their prime time show to tell everyone that Arafat had died.

CBS might be more known for this to the general public, but inside the
broadcast *industry*, Sinclair is a joke. Their stock has been in free-
fall for a year now...down to around $6.75 from over $15.25 at the start
of the year. Compared to other medium station-owning companies (Hearst,
Belo, Gannett, etc.), they're sucking rocks.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/RhymesW...e/BirdDogs.jpg
|
|

Chet Hayes ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
For arguments sake, suppose it cost $100. What you want is the vast
majority of consumers, who will never use the thing because they have
cable or sat, to pay for it. Multiply out how much consumer money is
being poured down the drain.

First, anything you say about ATSC tuners applies equally to non-digital
analog tuners. If they add even $10 to the cost, they are *far* more of
a problem in terms of total money.

Second, reseach has shown that over 30% of all TVs in this country get their
only input from OTA, and that nearly 70% get *some* input from OTA. Sure,
30% of TVs purchased will never have their tuners used, but I bet over
30% of cars will never have their jack used, either. And, over 30% of
consumers probably never use closed captions, yet every set has to decode
them and every station has to send them.

--
Jeff Rife |
SPAM bait: | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/RhymesW...atsAndDogs.jpg
|
|

Jeff Rife wrote:
Chet Hayes ) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:

For arguments sake, suppose it cost $100. What you want is the vast
majority of consumers, who will never use the thing because they have
cable or sat, to pay for it. Multiply out how much consumer money is
being poured down the drain.

First, anything you say about ATSC tuners applies equally to non-digital
analog tuners. If they add even $10 to the cost, they are *far* more of
a problem in terms of total money.

Agreed until sales of DTVs surpass that of analog TV sets the inclusion
of an analog tuner in all TV sets is an incredible waste. They should
not be included by mandate either. Fortunately we still have the right
to buy a tunerless monitor.

I would expect that after 5th gen receivers are available that more
integrated sets will include them and they will sell well. STILL NO NEED
FOR A MANDATE. Let the market sort it out. In other countries there is
no need for a mandate. The only need for a mandate is when the
government decides that you must buy something that you otherwise, for
whatever reason, have decided NOT to buy. In the instance of 8-VSB
receivers pre 5th generation that was decidedly the decision of 9 out of
10 buyers of HDTV sets. They declined to buy an OTA receiver. By making
them or attempting to make them buy one is to limit freedom.


Second, reseach has shown that over 30% of all TVs in this country get their
only input from OTA, and that nearly 70% get *some* input from OTA. Sure,
30% of TVs purchased will never have their tuners used, but I bet over
30% of cars will never have their jack used, either.

Poor analogy. People obviously value the presense of a jack in their
vehicle since there is the real possibility of its being needed. It is
also a very small % of the cars cost. In the case of 8-VSB receivers the
public specifically AVOIDED the purchase of 8-VSB receivers. They made a
conscious choice NOT to buy one 9 out of 10 times with good reason. They
are advised that the receivers do not work well, they percieve that the
cost is too high and they realize that they will not need this receiver
because they will be using cable or satellite. The government intrudes
into this decision making process of the consumer and dictates cost
unnecessarily for the purpose of getting the transition over that was
arbitrarily and politically set at 2006 or 85% of something they can't
figure out yet.

The government and the FCC have shown depraved indifference to the
welfare of the consumer in every decision on the subject.

Bob Miller

And, over 30% of
consumers probably never use closed captions, yet every set has to decode
them and every station has to send them.

kw5kw wrote:
In the case of 8-VSB receivers
the public specifically AVOIDED

BULL****, BULL****, BULL****... The general public has no clue what
8-VSB or what COFDM is NOR do they care. It's not the same as being
able to choose Chevrolet, Ford or Honda for your transportation. It's
an internal mechanism for making Digital Television work. The general
public don't know how it works, hell most people don't know how TCP/IP
works either, do they care, or do they have a choise? No they don't.
They don't care nor do they have a choise. Although, it might be that
IPX/SPX might work better than TCP/IP.

Do you have a thought on that Bob, which is better IPX/SPX or TCP/IP?
Do you have a choise? I want you to use IPX/SPX from now own Bob,
that way you can't communictate with us.

Bad analogy.
People do have a choice. They do not have to know everything about the
choice to make it. They rely on friends, personel experience, word of
mouth, retail personel and advertising to decide what to buy. Almost
every purchase you make is dependent on the above information channels
and others.

No one knows that much about the cars they purchase. They rely on a lot
of different sources of info and they do make and have a choice in the
purchase of a car and most people make an informed choice without having
a clue how disc brakes work or any of the hundreds of technologies that
go into a modern car.

In the case of 8-VSB the word of mouth is real bad. Just look at the
AVSForum where every so often a poster will say that they are going to
put off buying OTA receiver because of all the problems posted there.
There is NO advertising for OTA receivers. There are few receivers in
stores and we here all the time about open box specials which suggest
someone else was not too happy with their purchase. The FCC has had to
mandate receivers in TV sets it is so bad. There are few manufacturers
making 8-VSB receivers. Store personel are not informed.

All of this is a result of the modulation being bad. In other countries
where they have a decent modulation all this is reversed. There is a lot
of advertising, retail personel are educated, the word of mouth is
ecstatic and sales are incredible.

People in other countries who do not know the difference between COFDM
and 8-VSB are making informed decisions to buy COFDM receivers in mass.
And they don't have any more clue about the cars they buy either. They
are informed just as we in the US are from many sources.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller wrote:

kw5kw wrote:

Do you have a thought on that Bob, which is better IPX/SPX or TCP/IP?
Do you have a choise? I want you to use IPX/SPX from now own Bob,
that way you can't communictate with us.

Bad analogy.

Not at all. I think it is an excellent analogy. The average consumer
does not care what the enabling technology is.

Matthew

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
Bob Miller wrote:

Bad analogy.


Not at all. I think it is an excellent analogy. The average consumer
does not care what the enabling technology is.

Matthew

Obviously the consumer doesn't care what the enabling tech is. You
ignore the fact that I agreed with that statement.

The consumer can not know the technology behind most of what they buy. I
have no idea what technology drives my refrigerator.
kw%kw said that "It's not the same as being able to choose Chevrolet,
Ford or Honda for your transportation". I disagree. Most consumers know
little about the technology behind their car purchase or their TV purchase.

My point is that consumers use many sources for information on their
purchases. Using those sources they have decided that OTA 8-VSB
receivers are a bad bargain and they have avoided them EVEN when they
buy an HDTV set. While in other countries virtually every HD includes a
receiver or is purchased with a receiver.

Japan for instance has sold 1.6 million HDTV receivers in just the last
11 months and 99% of them are integrated HDTV sets that include ISDB-T
COFDM receivers. This is just not happening in the US, Canada or Mexico.
I don't know the figures on s. Korea.

The 8-VSB OTA receiver business in the US is a total disaster.

Bob Miller