Population growth
 

"RayL12" wrote in message
...
On 30/10/2015 10:20 AM, Norman Wells wrote:

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
...
"Norman Wells"
wrote in :

Even at the existing rate of growth, it will
reach 16 billion by 2100 from the current 7 billion, and the harsh
truth is that it can't possibly produce enough food for that many.

Never mind your figures are made up, but why the hell not?

There just isn't enough land that can be productively cultivated.

There is, besides productivity can be increased.

Even here in nicely arable Britain, using all the farmland available,
we can currently only produce enough food to sustain just 60% of the
population, or about 36 million.

You could do better if pressed (but there is no need to).

How exactly?

Some facts to make you think: The largest exporter of agricultural
goods in the world are the USA. Which country do you reckon is no. 2?
Wait for it: The Netherlands.

They're actually number 3 but I'm not quibbling. Who is number 5?
Britain. But we still need to import 40% of all the food we consume,
and that will rise to 50% by 2030.

The Netherlands are not *net* exporters. They, like Britain, are huge
net importers. What they export are high value crops like tomatoes and
flowers, not stuff the world actually depends on to eat, like wheat,
which they have to import.

One of the most densely populated countries on earth, a quarter of it
is taken up by what is basically one giant metropolis. But it cannot
only sustain itself, but even export groceries (and tulips :).

No, it is far from being self-sufficient, just like Britain.

Granted
they import food as well, as bananas and coffee don't grow in northern
climate, but their import/export balance is close to zero.

No it isn't. They export about $19.8 million of agricultural products,
but import about $49.5 million.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top...rters-map.html


http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top...l-imports.html


That means
in theory the Netherlands could feed their comparatively large
population on that small surface, even in an adverse northern climate
where plant growth basically stops for a few months each year.

Which is nonsense.

Not just that, they enjoy one of the highest living standards at the
same time.

They won't when the food runs out and there's nothing to import.

And don't say that it goes at the expense of nature. The Netherlands
are not an environmental wasteland, but a overall pleasant place and
even a popular tourist destination.

All it takes is for the rest of the world to adopt Dutch style
agriculture (or any other method of increasing productivity). Of course
that takes work, but it's doable. It's just a thought experiment
though, the actual challenge is much easier.

You can't live on tomatoes and tulips.


I think it's fair to say that, as we are increasing in population, we are
more than capable, globally, of feeding ourselves.

Yes, that that is why we don’t see famine anymore except where the
place has degenerated into the most obscene levels of civil war and
civil chaos or let some fool like Kim Jong Il rule the roost. And even
the first is trivially fixable by air dropping the food into those places.
We worked out how to do that almost 80 years ago now.

Population growth
 

On 01/11/15 02:56, RayL12 wrote:
I could donate my 40 hours to pulling weeds from riverbanks.

Chap round here wanders the footpaths with a pair of leather gloves, and
secateurs. I asked him if he was allowed 'Oh yes, I phoned the council,
and they said 'fine with us''

Of course is not a Labour council.



--
the biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

Population growth
 

On 29/10/2015 22:45, [email protected] wrote:


What makes you think a final salary pension isn't funded in the same way
as a personal pension?

These days most final salary pensions are public sector. They hope there
will be enough tax income to pay them. As the lawmakers (MPs) are
beneficiaries of these schemes it seems likely there will be.

Andy

Population growth
 

On 01/11/2015 22:41, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 29/10/2015 22:45, [email protected] wrote:


What makes you think a final salary pension isn't funded in the same way
as a personal pension?

These days most final salary pensions are public sector. They hope
there will be enough tax income to pay them. As the lawmakers (MPs)
are beneficiaries of these schemes it seems likely there will be.

So it's a scam then.


Mine is not funded by tax.

Population growth
 

On 01/11/2015 3:46 AM, Rod Speed wrote:


"RayL12" wrote in message
...
On 30/10/2015 9:19 AM, Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
"Norman Wells"
wrote in :

Even at the existing rate of growth, it will
reach 16 billion by 2100 from the current 7 billion, and the harsh
truth is that it can't possibly produce enough food for that many.

Never mind your figures are made up, but why the hell not?

There just isn't enough land that can be productively cultivated.

There is, besides productivity can be increased.

Even here in nicely arable Britain, using all the farmland available,
we can currently only produce enough food to sustain just 60% of the
population, or about 36 million.

You could do better if pressed (but there is no need to).

Some facts to make you think: The largest exporter of agricultural
goods in the world are the USA. Which country do you reckon is no. 2?
Wait for it: The Netherlands.

One of the most densely populated countries on earth, a quarter of it
is taken up by what is basically one giant metropolis. But it cannot
only sustain itself, but even export groceries (and tulips :). Granted
they import food as well, as bananas and coffee don't grow in northern
climate, but their import/export balance is close to zero. That means
in theory the Netherlands could feed their comparatively large
population on that small surface, even in an adverse northern climate
where plant growth basically stops for a few months each year. Not just
that, they enjoy one of the highest living standards at the same time.

And don't say that it goes at the expense of nature. The Netherlands
are not an environmental wasteland, but a overall pleasant place and
even a popular tourist destination.

All it takes is for the rest of the world to adopt Dutch style
agriculture (or any other method of increasing productivity). Of course
that takes work, but it's doable. It's just a thought experiment
though, the actual challenge is much easier.

One of the requests, I made several times, to different Employment
Officers is, 'Give me something productive to contribute to!'.

And they said to you 'Get qualified in an area where there is a lack of
suitable people'

I'm not gonna get employment during a world recession!

The best people do.

Use me for something good, I say.

Trouble is you wont get off your arse and get qualified to do that.

So, my options were, sit at home and wait for the phone to ring or, I
could donate my 40 hours to pulling weeds from riverbanks.

Or you could get qualified in an area where there is a
lack of suitable people. There are always those areas.

If there was ever a time to get someone sensible to organise us...

The most employable organise themselves.

You know what, Rodders, I'm going to leave any comments to others.

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Population growth
 

On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:54:46 +0000, [email protected]
wrote:

On 01/11/2015 22:41, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 29/10/2015 22:45, [email protected] wrote:


What makes you think a final salary pension isn't funded in the same way
as a personal pension?

These days most final salary pensions are public sector. They hope
there will be enough tax income to pay them. As the lawmakers (MPs)
are beneficiaries of these schemes it seems likely there will be.

So it's a scam then.


Mine is not funded by tax.

Neither is mine. I'm retired from a university and am receiving a final
salary pension from the Universities Superannuation Scheme. That final
salary pension plan has been closed to new entrants. There is now a plan
in which the amount of the pension is calculated on the basis of salary
during all years of membership, not just the final year (or few years).

In both cases the pensions are paid from the scheme's funds which are
invested. The funds come from the members' contributions (deductions
from salary) before retirement and the parallel contributions from the
employers.

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

Population growth
 

In message , Peter Duncanson
writes
On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:54:46 +0000, [email protected]
wrote:

On 01/11/2015 22:41, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 29/10/2015 22:45, [email protected] wrote:


What makes you think a final salary pension isn't funded in the same way
as a personal pension?

These days most final salary pensions are public sector. They hope
there will be enough tax income to pay them. As the lawmakers (MPs)
are beneficiaries of these schemes it seems likely there will be.

So it's a scam then.


Mine is not funded by tax.

Neither is mine. I'm retired from a university and am receiving a final
salary pension from the Universities Superannuation Scheme. That final
salary pension plan has been closed to new entrants. There is now a plan
in which the amount of the pension is calculated on the basis of salary
during all years of membership, not just the final year (or few years).

In both cases the pensions are paid from the scheme's funds which are
invested. The funds come from the members' contributions (deductions
from salary) before retirement and the parallel contributions from the
employers.

Don't you also get the state OAP? Surely THAT's funded by today's state
NI contributions (etc)?
--
Ian

Population growth
 

On 02/11/2015 19:08, Ian Jackson wrote:

Don't you also get the state OAP? Surely THAT's funded by today's state
NI contributions (etc)?

Not yet! Maybe when I am old enough.

Population growth
 

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:08:32 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Peter Duncanson
writes
On Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:54:46 +0000, [email protected]
wrote:

On 01/11/2015 22:41, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Vir
Campestris wrote:

On 29/10/2015 22:45, [email protected] wrote:


What makes you think a final salary pension isn't funded in the same way
as a personal pension?

These days most final salary pensions are public sector. They hope
there will be enough tax income to pay them. As the lawmakers (MPs)
are beneficiaries of these schemes it seems likely there will be.

So it's a scam then.


Mine is not funded by tax.

Neither is mine. I'm retired from a university and am receiving a final
salary pension from the Universities Superannuation Scheme. That final
salary pension plan has been closed to new entrants. There is now a plan
in which the amount of the pension is calculated on the basis of salary
during all years of membership, not just the final year (or few years).

In both cases the pensions are paid from the scheme's funds which are
invested. The funds come from the members' contributions (deductions
from salary) before retirement and the parallel contributions from the
employers.

Don't you also get the state OAP? Surely THAT's funded by today's state
NI contributions (etc)?

Yes, but this part of the thread is about final salary schemes.

The quote above from Andy (Vir Campestris) says "These days most final
salary pensions are public sector". I'm just pointing out that I and
quite a few others are in final salary schemes which aren't public
sector and funded by tax payers.

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

Population growth
 

On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:34:54 +0000, [email protected]
wrote:

On 02/11/2015 19:08, Ian Jackson wrote:

Don't you also get the state OAP? Surely THAT's funded by today's state
NI contributions (etc)?

Not yet! Maybe when I am old enough.

Hang in there!

--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)