Home Theater "Junkyard Wars"
 

As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part. Onkyo has dumped a
large amount of their older mid-end receivers on the market, and
having been exposed to some of them (and also aware of their
reliability/reputation), it was where I focused my search. The search
was over in a couple days, and it settled on:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=101500

Why? First off was the price- MSRP (ha, ha, yes I know) of $999,
available everywhere for under $500... $289 was within the budget. Of
course the reputation and other factors were the ultimate decision
maker (I can easily spend less than $289 on other ****e floating about
the boom-box-theater scene). Quality of the amplification was key-
while no better or worse than lots in this market, Onkyo's reputation
of smooth, clean power output was a main swaying factor. Quite
honestly as well, it had what was needed, and potential for
upgradability speakerwise (i.e. rear center surround) provided
additional incentive.


Now on to speakers. This was perhaps where I should have started,
since it was ultimately the most difficult part to accomplish. My tact
was to see what was out there in used/demo stock, and assemble (i.e.
cobble) a decent 6 piece system (mains, center, POWERED sub, two rear
surrounds) using reputable names, without putting too much of a
bottleneck qualitywise on the head of the speakers. Bear in mind I now
had $211 to spend on this task.

It became clear in a hurry that I had bitten off more than I could
chew.

A typical candidate for the cobbling approach:

Atlantic Technology 254.1SR White, $104/pr.
http://www.soundcityoutlet.com/page....product_id=484

Great little surrounds... but I'm running out of money. I could never
match these with what I had left... even if I went back to the
"customer" and asked her to pony up $200 more... I would still be
short a sub. This same scenario played itself out again and again.
Unless I found an insane deal on something like an Atlantic Tech T70
system, or the equivalent Paradigm, etc. level- I was going to have to
swallow my pride and venture into the Vinyl/MDF carnival of horrors.

After psyching myself into going down the rabbit hole, the black box
bonanza became a might unsettling. They all looked like something I'd
buy out of the back of a white van, and buying sound unseen meant that
I was probably getting something that would mangle Jim Morrison into
sounding like White Van Morrison. But, here I was, $200 to spend, 6
speakers to puchase. Names like "BIC America", "KLH", "Altec Lansing",
"Cambridge Soundworks"... all caused my trash-radar to beep wildly.
But, I was slumming. The wedding ring was off, and I had my shirt half
unbuttoned, and it was time to get dirty. Here's where I ultimately
dove:

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...Surround+Sound

I can hear your gasps and cringes from here... and with good reason.
CV's approach to sound reproduction is similar to Arnold
Schwarzenegger's behavior on a first date: Sure they're subtle enough
when they're quiet, but soon it because obvious that they're both
obvious, moderately offensive, and heavy-handed. But, hey, at least
they've got muscle, right? That's precisely why I chose this speaker
"system" over the other MDF-clones... I'd rather start off someone
with accurate-enough reproduction at low volumes and
scary-peaky-offense at high power, as opposed to just-plain-suck at
all decibel levels. That, and, hey! It's under $200! After my
interconnects and other various miscellany, I'll be a tad over my $500
budget, but not by much.

What have I learned during this? Buying stuff sound-unseen off the net
is a real exercise in humility, not to mention a crap shoot, when a
budget is set so low. I'm going to be very interested in this, when I
install it and put it through its paces.

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here... and feel free to point out where I've gone horribly wrong, as
I'm sure many of you have similar excursions into the back-alleys of
low-priced home audio/theater. Cheers!

-Blipvert

Blipvert wrote:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here.

On one hand, given your budget, you way overspent on the receiver. Onecall
has a 65-Watt x 6 Onkyo on clearance for $150
(http://ww1.onecall.com/PID_20408.htm ) which would have left a lot more room
for reasonable speakers. I then would have looked for a $100 powered sub
(BestBuy has a KLH or a Sony for $100 and the $150 Radio Shack one goes on sale
for $75 and packs a decent punch), leaving $250 for the three best front
speakers I could find (Onecall also has NHT SuperZeroes for about $85 shipped,
they'd probably go down a bit), and pitch in $10 of my own money for a couple
of little Goodwill speakers to serve as rears. You *did* say Junkyard, and
this is the realm of B-stock, used stuff, and thrift stores.

On the other hand, you've probably done your friend a favor in the long run
as rather than having two major components that he'll want to upgrade shortly
he'll only have one. The higher-end Onkyo will meet his needs forever and the
next time he's got $400 burning a hole in his pocket he can upgrade the front
speakers to something that will make the whole system highly competetive -- and
the old C/Vs will probably still be fine as rears, and the extras will still be
worth a few bucks each to a college kid or as a writeoff to Goodwill.

JGM

Geez man, I think you went overboard spending the bulk of that moolah on
the receiver. I would have gone for one of those HTIB jobs, probably
from Yamaha.

--
"Get rid of the Range Rover. You are not responsible for patrolling
Australia's Dingo Barrier Fence, nor do you work the Savannah, capturing
and tagging wildebeests."
--Michael J. Nelson

Grand Inquisitor
http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost

Jesus, man, screw the $500 system, you write so well you should write a book
about searching for the right home theater and use the royalties to buy a
kick ass system for you and your buddy.

Doug

--
Why watch it when you can Replay it?
Replay ID 00004-54831-74727


"Blipvert" wrote in message
...
As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part. Onkyo has dumped a
large amount of their older mid-end receivers on the market, and
having been exposed to some of them (and also aware of their
reliability/reputation), it was where I focused my search. The search
was over in a couple days, and it settled on:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=101500

Why? First off was the price- MSRP (ha, ha, yes I know) of $999,
available everywhere for under $500... $289 was within the budget. Of
course the reputation and other factors were the ultimate decision
maker (I can easily spend less than $289 on other ****e floating about
the boom-box-theater scene). Quality of the amplification was key-
while no better or worse than lots in this market, Onkyo's reputation
of smooth, clean power output was a main swaying factor. Quite
honestly as well, it had what was needed, and potential for
upgradability speakerwise (i.e. rear center surround) provided
additional incentive.


Now on to speakers. This was perhaps where I should have started,
since it was ultimately the most difficult part to accomplish. My tact
was to see what was out there in used/demo stock, and assemble (i.e.
cobble) a decent 6 piece system (mains, center, POWERED sub, two rear
surrounds) using reputable names, without putting too much of a
bottleneck qualitywise on the head of the speakers. Bear in mind I now
had $211 to spend on this task.

It became clear in a hurry that I had bitten off more than I could
chew.

A typical candidate for the cobbling approach:

Atlantic Technology 254.1SR White, $104/pr.

http://www.soundcityoutlet.com/page....product_id=484

Great little surrounds... but I'm running out of money. I could never
match these with what I had left... even if I went back to the
"customer" and asked her to pony up $200 more... I would still be
short a sub. This same scenario played itself out again and again.
Unless I found an insane deal on something like an Atlantic Tech T70
system, or the equivalent Paradigm, etc. level- I was going to have to
swallow my pride and venture into the Vinyl/MDF carnival of horrors.

After psyching myself into going down the rabbit hole, the black box
bonanza became a might unsettling. They all looked like something I'd
buy out of the back of a white van, and buying sound unseen meant that
I was probably getting something that would mangle Jim Morrison into
sounding like White Van Morrison. But, here I was, $200 to spend, 6
speakers to puchase. Names like "BIC America", "KLH", "Altec Lansing",
"Cambridge Soundworks"... all caused my trash-radar to beep wildly.
But, I was slumming. The wedding ring was off, and I had my shirt half
unbuttoned, and it was time to get dirty. Here's where I ultimately
dove:

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...Surround+Sound

I can hear your gasps and cringes from here... and with good reason.
CV's approach to sound reproduction is similar to Arnold
Schwarzenegger's behavior on a first date: Sure they're subtle enough
when they're quiet, but soon it because obvious that they're both
obvious, moderately offensive, and heavy-handed. But, hey, at least
they've got muscle, right? That's precisely why I chose this speaker
"system" over the other MDF-clones... I'd rather start off someone
with accurate-enough reproduction at low volumes and
scary-peaky-offense at high power, as opposed to just-plain-suck at
all decibel levels. That, and, hey! It's under $200! After my
interconnects and other various miscellany, I'll be a tad over my $500
budget, but not by much.

What have I learned during this? Buying stuff sound-unseen off the net
is a real exercise in humility, not to mention a crap shoot, when a
budget is set so low. I'm going to be very interested in this, when I
install it and put it through its paces.

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here... and feel free to point out where I've gone horribly wrong, as
I'm sure many of you have similar excursions into the back-alleys of
low-priced home audio/theater. Cheers!

-Blipvert

The first thing you should learn is that it's not a good idea to pick
out equipment for someone else. If you're lucky, they'll love it and
give you some credit for having chosen it. If yoou're unlucky, they
won't like it, and will hold you responsible for wasting a lot of
their money.

The second thing is to remember that your taste isn't going to match
theirs. Certainly, you wouldn't be happy with a $600 system, so why
are you recommending same? They should be getting their info from
someone that has a $600 system and is happy with it.

Third, never recommend refurbished stuff.

When you give someone advise about what to buy, make sure Consumer
Reports also recommends it. Now, if they don't like it, both of you
can blame CR. At the very least, it should be a system similar to one
that CR recommends.

Cheers,

Norm Strong


"Blipvert" wrote in message
...
As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend
of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his
birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a
keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good
setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers
that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part. Onkyo has dumped
a
large amount of their older mid-end receivers on the market, and
having been exposed to some of them (and also aware of their
reliability/reputation), it was where I focused my search. The
search
was over in a couple days, and it settled on:

Onkyo TX-SR600 Home Theater Receiver (Factory Refurbished), $289
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=101500

Why? First off was the price- MSRP (ha, ha, yes I know) of $999,
available everywhere for under $500... $289 was within the budget.
Of
course the reputation and other factors were the ultimate decision
maker (I can easily spend less than $289 on other ****e floating
about
the boom-box-theater scene). Quality of the amplification was key-
while no better or worse than lots in this market, Onkyo's
reputation
of smooth, clean power output was a main swaying factor. Quite
honestly as well, it had what was needed, and potential for
upgradability speakerwise (i.e. rear center surround) provided
additional incentive.


Now on to speakers. This was perhaps where I should have started,
since it was ultimately the most difficult part to accomplish. My
tact
was to see what was out there in used/demo stock, and assemble (i.e.
cobble) a decent 6 piece system (mains, center, POWERED sub, two
rear
surrounds) using reputable names, without putting too much of a
bottleneck qualitywise on the head of the speakers. Bear in mind I
now
had $211 to spend on this task.

It became clear in a hurry that I had bitten off more than I could
chew.

A typical candidate for the cobbling approach:

Atlantic Technology 254.1SR White, $104/pr.

http://www.soundcityoutlet.com/page....product_id=484

Great little surrounds... but I'm running out of money. I could
never
match these with what I had left... even if I went back to the
"customer" and asked her to pony up $200 more... I would still be
short a sub. This same scenario played itself out again and again.
Unless I found an insane deal on something like an Atlantic Tech T70
system, or the equivalent Paradigm, etc. level- I was going to have
to
swallow my pride and venture into the Vinyl/MDF carnival of horrors.

After psyching myself into going down the rabbit hole, the black box
bonanza became a might unsettling. They all looked like something
I'd
buy out of the back of a white van, and buying sound unseen meant
that
I was probably getting something that would mangle Jim Morrison into
sounding like White Van Morrison. But, here I was, $200 to spend, 6
speakers to puchase. Names like "BIC America", "KLH", "Altec
Lansing",
"Cambridge Soundworks"... all caused my trash-radar to beep wildly.
But, I was slumming. The wedding ring was off, and I had my shirt
half
unbuttoned, and it was time to get dirty. Here's where I ultimately
dove:

Cerwin-Vega HTS-2 6-Speaker Surround Sound Package, $199.99

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...Surround+Sound

I can hear your gasps and cringes from here... and with good reason.
CV's approach to sound reproduction is similar to Arnold
Schwarzenegger's behavior on a first date: Sure they're subtle
enough
when they're quiet, but soon it because obvious that they're both
obvious, moderately offensive, and heavy-handed. But, hey, at least
they've got muscle, right? That's precisely why I chose this speaker
"system" over the other MDF-clones... I'd rather start off someone
with accurate-enough reproduction at low volumes and
scary-peaky-offense at high power, as opposed to just-plain-suck at
all decibel levels. That, and, hey! It's under $200! After my
interconnects and other various miscellany, I'll be a tad over my
$500
budget, but not by much.

What have I learned during this? Buying stuff sound-unseen off the
net
is a real exercise in humility, not to mention a crap shoot, when a
budget is set so low. I'm going to be very interested in this, when
I
install it and put it through its paces.

I look forward to the comments, flames, and opinions of the regulars
here... and feel free to point out where I've gone horribly wrong,
as
I'm sure many of you have similar excursions into the back-alleys of
low-priced home audio/theater. Cheers!

-Blipvert

On 28 Oct 2003 00:21:34 GMT, (JGM) wrote:


On the other hand, you've probably done your friend a favor in the long run
as rather than having two major components that he'll want to upgrade shortly
he'll only have one. The higher-end Onkyo will meet his needs forever and the
next time he's got $400 burning a hole in his pocket he can upgrade the front
speakers to something that will make the whole system highly competetive -- and
the old C/Vs will probably still be fine as rears, and the extras will still be
worth a few bucks each to a college kid or as a writeoff to Goodwill.

JGM

This was very close to my original train of thought... I looked at the
TX-SR500 and balked because of the substantially lower power rating,
lack of OSD, less remote control intercompatibility, and perhaps the
most important difference, completely different amplifier circuitry.
The 600's heat sink is massive compared to the 500 (verified by
research visit to Circuit City)- which makes me feel better, if
nothing else.

I still haven't ruled out using the C/V surrounds, sub, and center and
upgrading the L/R mains with a gift influx of cash. The NHT isn't a
bad idea- and there happens to be a set (albeit in White) used in
Evanston (where this install will take place) he
http://www.audioconsultants.com/used.html .

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:59:08 GMT, normanstrong wrote:
When you give someone advise about what to buy, make sure Consumer
Reports also recommends it. Now, if they don't like it, both of you
can blame CR. At the very least, it should be a system similar to one
that CR recommends.

If you never buy equipment that hasn't been recommended by CR, you're
always going to have mass-produced, consumer-grade junk. Bad, bad
advice.

--
************************************************** **********************
* John Oliver http://www.john-oliver.net/ *
* "For the wages of spam is death!" http://www.spamcon.org/legalfund/ *
************************************************** **********************


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normanstrong wrote:

Third, never recommend refurbished stuff.

As long as it's beat on Norm day, I'm going to disagree with this, too. I've
found B-stock and refurbs to be a great way to stretch into a higher category
of quality than could otherwise be afforded. These units have typically been
given personal attention by a skilled technician (more so than one that just
"came off the line") and always come with an equivalent-to-new warranty. The
reliability curve says if it's going to fail, it'll fail sooner rather than
later.

Now, if you're talking about the *psychology* of advising friends while still
keeping them, I'd say never *tell* them it's B-stock, or used, or thrift store.
Just show up with the thing, tell them the list price and then tell them how
much they owe you. Of course, it helps to know the psychological profile of
your friend. Most people seeking this type of advice are going to be thrilled
with *anything* -- your job is to keep them from getting ripped off. Other
people are never going to be happy with anything -- your job there is to stay
the heck away!

JGM

On 28 Oct 2003 18:29:14 -0600, (John Oliver)
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:59:08 GMT, normanstrong wrote:
When you give someone advise about what to buy, make sure Consumer
Reports also recommends it. Now, if they don't like it, both of you
can blame CR. At the very least, it should be a system similar to one
that CR recommends.

If you never buy equipment that hasn't been recommended by CR, you're
always going to have mass-produced, consumer-grade junk. Bad, bad
advice.

CR is just that.. CONSUMER reports... and doesn't exactly represent
either the best, or the worst of the stuff available, merely the stuff
that's available in mass quantities to the general consumer. Case in
point were the reviews a few years back, where they raved over the "CR
Best Buy" Technics receivers. Technics?!

The reason why I went with the Onkyo head in the budget, was to
provide a base to expand from. The CV speakers will handle the power
it puts out, and while not sounding pure and beautiful, will probably
indeed put out adequate sound.... adequate enough to leave the
ultimate owner wanting more... and being able to add more with a
decent speaker purchase, as opposed to a complete junk-and-start-over.

If I was doing something like this on commission, or for an
acquaintance, I'd be a lot more likely to have my CYA mode enabled. As
it is, I've spent $500, and have something coming in that's workable.

Oddly enough, nobody replying to this thread (in this group or others)
has mentioned anything specific about the HTS-2 CV MDF speaker set. I
actually had a (free) CV center channel once upon a time, which, upon
dissection, revealed decent individual speakers, shoddy assembly and
super-cheap electronics. It sounded obvious, but, it wasn't
discernibly "bad". That being said, it WAS a center channel, and
responsible for a spectrum that most any reasonable cabineted 2 way
can reproduce.

"JGM" wrote in message
...
normanstrong wrote:

Third, never recommend refurbished stuff.

As long as it's beat on Norm day, I'm going to disagree with this,
too. I've
found B-stock and refurbs to be a great way to stretch into a higher
category
of quality than could otherwise be afforded. These units have
typically been
given personal attention by a skilled technician (more so than one
that just
"came off the line") and always come with an equivalent-to-new
warranty. The
reliability curve says if it's going to fail, it'll fail sooner
rather than
later.

I didn't say "never buy refurbished stuff", I said "never RECOMMEND
refurbished stuff."

Norm Strong

Blipvert wrote in message . ..
As a guy that fancies himself having graduated from the world of
consumer-end audio, I initially hesitated when the wife of a friend of
mine approached me with the following situation:

1) I want to get my husband a surround sound system for his birthday,
in two weeks
2) We already have a decent TV, DVD, and VCR setup
3) Here's $500. Will this be enough?
4) What's a stub-waffer?

Given that she's obviously not terribly sophisticated about home AV
gear, (and being married myself) I suspect she isn't interested in
becoming terribly sophisticated, I suggest you steer her towards the
home-theater-in-a-box (HTiB) solutions, such as a Sony DAV or similar
HTiB.

The November issue of Consumer Reports (if it's not on newsstands now,
it's probably available at local library) reviews HTiBs, including
$500-and-under HTiBs for folks who already have a DVD player (like
your friend) or for people who want a DVD player in their HTiB. (This
report can also be accessed at www.ConsumerReports.org, but you'll
need to pay a monthy subscription fee.)

However, given the myriad of deals floating about the net, and a keen
eye for price vs. quality, I decided to take on the challenge, as
opposed to sending her a high-quality framed picture of a good setup.

My approach was to invest the bulk of the amount into a decent A/V
receiver, and what ever was left over would be used for speakers that
wouldn't cost too much to upgrade later, as her husband grows out of
the RCA/clock radio boom-box expectation of audio replication.
Training wheels, so to speak... we all started there, more or less.

I realize that people like you and me would have a lot of fun with
this approach, shopping for all different pieces and brands of gear
etc., but I'll point out that if that sort of thing interested her,
she's already being doing that.

In other words, think about her interests and needs, because you're
making this waaaay too complicated. You're trying to make her do what
you think she should do, when IMHO you should be doing what she wants
to do.

So take it easy on yourself and her and look at the CR review. That'll
narrow things down for her and she can select from those recommended
HTiBs.

I'll also suggest that you visit your friends' home and get her to
show you where she needs all the new gear to go. That will help you
decide the size and looks of the gear.

Will an HTiB give the sort of ultimate performance you'd want?
Probably not. But you need to think about meeting her needs. Keep it
simple.

************************************************

A few more thoughts...

You might also want to find out what brand(s) of TV, DVD player, and
VCR she has. If you can buy gear from that brand(s), you'll increase
the chances that she and her husband won't need a separate remote for
each piece of hardware. If by some miracle she has only one brand of
hardware, and that brand has a linking feature (like JVC's CompuLink
or Sony's S-link), then give serious consideration to sticking with
that brand. One-brand systems can be much easier to operate.

If she's like my wife, she just wants to use the gear, play a DVD or
tape, etc., not muck with a pile of remotes and have to get every
piece of hardware working correctly to get anything to happen. Again,
my point is that you need to think about her needs.

Actually, if the TV has variable audio outputs, and she could maybe
live w/o surround sound, the easiest way to go would be to add powered
speakers connected to the TV's variable audio outputs. Like so:

DVD player and VCR - TV - Powered speakers

I have a TV set up like that at home. This system doesn't offer all
the bells and whistles, but anyone in my family can operate it easily.
Gear that's too complicated for family members to operate, or is
complex to operate, eventually will get little or no use, IME.

(The speakers are the (discontinued) Atlantic Technology "Pattern"
satellite/subwoofer set, which has plenty of oomph.)

Choosing the receiver was actually the easier part.

If I was going to buy a cheap receiver for myself, I'd probably go for
a Panasonic HE-100, which has had positive reviews in CR and Sound &
Vision. It has a cheaper little brother, the HE-70, with almost all
the same features, and also positive comments in CR. It's around $200
at Circuit City.

(Given how little time you have, I suggest you shop only from local
retailers. If you buy by mail or web, and you have any glitch, you
could easily miss your deadline.)

Then you'd have $300 left over for speakers. I haven't shopped for
speakers in a long time, but speakers always make the biggest
difference. Also keep in mind that if she goes with surround-sound
speakers, she'll need places to put or mount them, so remember to
include speaker mounts or stands in her budget, if needed. So talk to
her about where the speakers will need to go.

Here's a speaker idea, with truly small speakers, which she may
appreciate:

http://www.jandr.com/JRProductPage.p...uct_Id=2794626

Here are the matching speaker stands:

http://www.jandr.com/JRProductPage.p...uct_Id=1046850

You can probably find the above at Best Buys or Circuit City.

To summarize, I suggest you think about her needs and wants. She wants
you to point her in a direction where she'll find something that works
and is easy to live with for $500 or less. An HTiB is exactly that
kind of solution. Keep it simple.

(snip)

"normanstrong" wrote in message news:[email protected]_s01...
The first thing you should learn is that it's not a good idea to pick
out equipment for someone else. If you're lucky, they'll love it and
give you some credit for having chosen it. If yoou're unlucky, they
won't like it, and will hold you responsible for wasting a lot of
their money.

Agree. Although it's tempting to spend other people's money on stuff I
like, I try to be very careful or avoid such situations. Only the
buyer knows what's best for them, not me.

The second thing is to remember that your taste isn't going to match
theirs. Certainly, you wouldn't be happy with a $600 system, so why
are you recommending same? They should be getting their info from
someone that has a $600 system and is happy with it.

See your point. The gourmet approach is pointless to her situation.
This is part of the reason I recommended she look at CR, which reviews
HTiBs in the November issue. CR covers things in a way oriented
towards typical consumers, like her, who don't care about gourmet
stuff.

Third, never recommend refurbished stuff.

Agree. Again, that's probably the safest thing to do. Some people
don't like giving or receiving anything that's not new. Even if the
gear is fine initially, if it fails later there's going to be a black
cloud over the whole experience. For $500, there's tons of adequate
new gear out there.

When you give someone advise about what to buy, make sure Consumer
Reports also recommends it. Now, if they don't like it, both of you
can blame CR. At the very least, it should be a system similar to one
that CR recommends.

I'm perhaps more confident in CR than you are, but I see your point.
Like you, I'm trying to keep in mind that this is a gift for someone
else and it's the wife who has the $500, so she should make the
choices and take the responsibility.

(I'll add that I've been married many, many years and that's given me
a lot of perspective on situations like this.)

Another, even more radical thought is that the OP might even want to
consider staying out of the gift-giving affairs of the wife. The OP
could just give the husband a gift and be done with it. That way, the
OP could choose something he likes and that the OP thinks the husband
will enjoy.

That would be much simpler for the OP and less likely to turn into a
complicated mess. Like I said elsewhere in this thread, it's smart to
keep it simple.

(snip)

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:00:56 -0800, Neil wrote:

If she's like my wife, she just wants to use the gear, play a DVD or
tape, etc., not muck with a pile of remotes and have to get every
piece of hardware working correctly to get anything to happen. [...]
DVD player and VCR - TV - Powered speakers
[...] This system doesn't offer all the bells and whistles, but anyone
in my family can operate it easily. Gear that's too complicated for
family members to operate, or is complex to operate, eventually will get
little or no use, IME

A good universal remote can help out with the multiple remotes issue, and
a really good macro remote (with intelligently made macros) can help with
the complexity issue.

I have a very basic Kenwood HTiB that is miles above anything I've ever
used before (in other words, I'm happy with it...), but the complexity is
also more than anything I've ever had before.

Turning it on to watch TV used to be a 7 button process.

Now, with my Radio Shack branded 15-2117 remote, and some intelligent
macros, turning it to watch the cable feed directly is a one button
process. To switch to Tivo mode, it's one additional button ;)

Best of all, the 15-2117 is only $30, and features RF as well as IR.

The 15-2116 is the same remote without RF, but it is also $30.

The trick to programming the remote well (for me) was the JP1 interface,
which is included on these remotes. With it, you can plug a special cable
(available for order on various sites, or you can make your own) between
the remote and your computer and program it that way.

Anyway, your points were all good. It would be much nicer, for example, to
have everything the same brand and connected via some sort of system
control...

Lacking that, though, a good remote would be better IMHO than a cheaper
setup (e.g. powered speakers plugged into the TV's audio outputs...... a
receiver would be just so much more fun!).

--
Lenroc

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:27:47 -0700, Lenroc wrote:

Now, with my Radio Shack branded 15-2117 remote, and some intelligent
macros, turning it to watch the cable feed directly is a one button
process.

Left out the word "on", as in "turning it on to watch the cable"...

--
Lenroc

Blipvert wrote in message . ..
On 28 Oct 2003 00:21:34 GMT, (JGM) wrote:

(snip)

This was very close to my original train of thought... I looked at the
TX-SR500 and balked because of the substantially lower power rating,
lack of OSD, less remote control intercompatibility, and perhaps the
most important difference, completely different amplifier circuitry.
The 600's heat sink is massive compared to the 500 (verified by
research visit to Circuit City)- which makes me feel better, if
nothing else.

This sounds like stuff you care about, but that I strongly doubt the
wife cares about. You're making this waaay too complicated. Keep it
simple, as I suggest in my other posts in this thread.

If I were you, and I did anything at all, I'd point the wife in the
direction of the November Consumer Reports and what they suggest,
which will meet her budget and needs.

(snip)

Lenroc wrote in message news:[email protected]
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:00:56 -0800, Neil wrote:

If she's like my wife, she just wants to use the gear, play a DVD or
tape, etc., not muck with a pile of remotes and have to get every
piece of hardware working correctly to get anything to happen. [...]
DVD player and VCR - TV - Powered speakers
[...] This system doesn't offer all the bells and whistles, but anyone
in my family can operate it easily. Gear that's too complicated for
family members to operate, or is complex to operate, eventually will get
little or no use, IME

A good universal remote can help out with the multiple remotes issue, and
a really good macro remote (with intelligently made macros) can help with
the complexity issue.

I have a very basic Kenwood HTiB that is miles above anything I've ever
used before (in other words, I'm happy with it...), but the complexity is
also more than anything I've ever had before.

Turning it on to watch TV used to be a 7 button process.

Now, with my Radio Shack branded 15-2117 remote, and some intelligent
macros, turning it to watch the cable feed directly is a one button
process. To switch to Tivo mode, it's one additional button ;)

Best of all, the 15-2117 is only $30, and features RF as well as IR.

The 15-2116 is the same remote without RF, but it is also $30.

Thank you for the tip and I see your point, but doing the sort of
thing you suggest adds another layer of complexity to the purchase of
a system, when I suspect that the wife will want something that will
work straight out of the box.

Someone like you, me, or a typical reader here would probably be
comfortable with programming a remote, but she may not want to bother
with something like this. Also, even if somebody else programs the
remote for her, but the remote loses its settings, then she'll have to
get the remote programmed again.

The trick to programming the remote well (for me) was the JP1 interface,
which is included on these remotes. With it, you can plug a special cable
(available for order on various sites, or you can make your own) between
the remote and your computer and program it that way.

Anyway, your points were all good. It would be much nicer, for example, to
have everything the same brand and connected via some sort of system
control...

I've been tempted to go with a one-brand system (such as all-JVC gear,
connected via CompuLink, or all Sony, with S-link), just to get the
convenience of having a system that truly operates as one. (For
example, if you insert a DVD into the JVC hardware, the TV and
receiver will automatically power up and go into the correct mode and
switch to the correct inputs, outputs, and setting.) Years ago, I
enjoyed all the complexity of having and using a lot of gear, but now
I care much more about simplicity of use and having gear that everyone
in my family can use easily.

I've also gotten to the point that I just want to use and enjoy the
gear, not fuss with setting everything correctly myself. I realize a
one-brand system might not have all the features of a mix 'n' match,
multibrand system, but I probably can live w/o those features.

Lacking that, though, a good remote would be better IMHO than a cheaper
setup (e.g. powered speakers plugged into the TV's audio outputs...... a
receiver would be just so much more fun!).

Fun by the standards of you, me, and probably other posters here, but
I suspect that's not the wife's idea of fun. Most likely, she wants to
buy a gift that's easy to set up and use, with as little hassle as
possible. Even if that might not provide the ultimate performance by
standards such as yours and mine, the convenience may be more
important to her, and I'm trying to think of this from her
perspective.

It is fun to think of what I'd do on a $500 shopping spree with
someone else's money, but rather than spend that $500 on what I'd
like, I'm trying to think of what she'd like.

BTW, I used to use a receiver with that TV myself, which is set up in
front of my treadmill. But with the powered speakers, I can just jump
on the treadmill and control the TV and audio with the TV's remote.
No, it's not the ultimate in AV performance, but it's much
better-sounding than just using the TV's built-in speakers, and anyone
in my family who can turn on the TV can use this system. I've traded
off ultimate performance for convenience, with the result that the
gear gets used much more than if the gear was more complicated and had
more features.

I'll add that when I'm reading AV magazines like Sound & Vision, it
really strikes me just how complicated modern gear is. When I want to
listen to music or watch something on TV, I don't want to have to
think about Firewire, Wi-Fi, or all the other possible features and
complications available these days. I just want to hear some music or
watch a movie, not muck around with a lot of settings and protocols.

BTW, I have some other gear around the house and I confess I haven't
ever tried to program a remote. For $30, I might be willing to give
the Radio Shack remote you recommend a try. Thanks for the tip!

Lenroc wrote in message news:[email protected]
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:27:47 -0700, Lenroc wrote:

Now, with my Radio Shack branded 15-2117 remote, and some intelligent
macros, turning it to watch the cable feed directly is a one button
process.

Left out the word "on", as in "turning it on to watch the cable"...

It's interesting that you pointed that out, because it made me realize
that I'd automatically and unthinkingly inserted the missing word
"on," because I understood the context.

BTW, many years ago I interviewed for a job reading written
transcripts of radio shows, where I had to look for exactly these sort
of little omissions and other errors.