HDTVs and audio
 

At long last I've decided to take the plunge and buy an HDTV 'Freeview'
set. Almost certainly an LED Panasonic of modest size. I'd welcome some
answers to a few pretty basic questions, mainly wrt the audio side of
operations.

1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?

If the answer to (1) is 'yes':

2) Is it normal to then be able to mute the TV's own speakers so you just
can use a hifi and the external DAC for the audio?

3) Does that normally then bypass any 'volume control' of the TV set? Or is
this user-choosable, or what?

4) Does HDMI ensure audio-video synch? Either from the TV's digital output,
or by telling the HDMI source and allowing a digital spdif output from that
to be delayed to match? Or?

It would be convenient from my POV is the TV acted simply as a 'pass
though' for the audio from external sources - e.g. DVD player. So ensured
lip-synch by otherwise allowed the audio samples to be 'as from the source'
without any sounds from the TVs speakers. But is the norm? Or is there a
problem here?

Also:

Are middle-of-the range panasonics likely to have 3 HDMI sockets?

Allow no 'overscan' so a 1:1 scaling of HD sources?

I'll ask about such things in the shop. But some comments here to clarify
what I should be able to expect would be helpful.

Cheers,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

HDTVs and audio
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
At long last I've decided to take the plunge and buy an HDTV 'Freeview'
set. Almost certainly an LED Panasonic of modest size. I'd welcome some
answers to a few pretty basic questions, mainly wrt the audio side of
operations.

I have a Sony, so my answers are specifically applicable for that, however
FWIW, I would expect Panny to be the same.

1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?

Yes

If the answer to (1) is 'yes':

2) Is it normal to then be able to mute the TV's own speakers so you just
can use a hifi and the external DAC for the audio?

Yes

3) Does that normally then bypass any 'volume control' of the TV set? Or is
this user-choosable, or what?

By-passes the TV's volume control


4) Does HDMI ensure audio-video synch? Either from the TV's digital output,
or by telling the HDMI source and allowing a digital spdif output from that
to be delayed to match? Or?

I've had no lip sync issues, either using the TV's own tuner, or external HDMI
sources

It would be convenient from my POV is the TV acted simply as a 'pass
though' for the audio from external sources - e.g. DVD player. So ensured
lip-synch by otherwise allowed the audio samples to be 'as from the source'
without any sounds from the TVs speakers. But is the norm? Or is there a
problem here?

That's how I do it. Use a AV Amp, fed by optical link from the TV's 'Audio
Out', and only feed the external boxes into the TV via HDMI. The TV is the
'master' source selection device, Volume control is using the Amp, I don't
use any of the amp's HDMI facilities.


Also:

Are middle-of-the range panasonics likely to have 3 HDMI sockets?

IMHO Yes


Allow no 'overscan' so a 1:1 scaling of HD sources?

Sony's yes, LGs no, I don't know about Pannys or Samsungs. Irritatingly on the
Sony you have to set 1:1 mapping (they call it 'Full Pixel') separately for
every input, and also when the set is in progressive *and* interlace mode.
Remember the HD Mux employs dynamic GOP by GOP p/i switching, so with the Sony
you can end up with the overscan cutting in and out every second or so. You
need to set full pixel mode separately when it's forced into each mode. It's a
PITA, but once set, that's it !

I'll ask about such things in the shop. But some comments here to clarify
what I should be able to expect would be helpful.

One must IMHO is the ability to remap and delete EPG LCNs, so you can put the
HD versions of channels on the 'SD' LCNs, instead of having them up at 101+
which is the default condition for Freeview.


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

HDTVs and audio
 

Mine is LG

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
At long last I've decided to take the plunge and buy an HDTV 'Freeview'
set. Almost certainly an LED Panasonic of modest size. I'd welcome some
answers to a few pretty basic questions, mainly wrt the audio side of
operations.

1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?

If the answer to (1) is 'yes':

Yes - and received digital audio


2) Is it normal to then be able to mute the TV's own speakers so you just
can use a hifi and the external DAC for the audio?

Yes.


3) Does that normally then bypass any 'volume control' of the TV set? Or
is
this user-choosable, or what?

If you are using digital then the signal is sent 'as is'. Not sure what
happens on analog, but I would expect line output (600mV). On my earlier
Philips set this was selectable.


4) Does HDMI ensure audio-video synch? Either from the TV's digital
output,
or by telling the HDMI source and allowing a digital spdif output from
that
to be delayed to match? Or?

Never had any trouble with this. Kindly the BBC outputs a couple of minutes
a day of test card with speaker and synch tests to allow you to check
everything is correct. Any delay will be set specific.


It would be convenient from my POV is the TV acted simply as a 'pass
though' for the audio from external sources - e.g. DVD player. So ensured
lip-synch by otherwise allowed the audio samples to be 'as from the
source'
without any sounds from the TVs speakers. But is the norm? Or is there a
problem here?


I do it the other way around - HDMI sources got to the AV amp first.
Freesat and Freeview are received in the set, so if I want full surround I
use the optical SPDIF link to go the other way.

Some more recent HDMI have a reverse audio channel (so avoiding the need for
the SPDIF link).

Also:

Are middle-of-the range panasonics likely to have 3 HDMI sockets?

Probably - look it up at Richer Sounds.


Allow no 'overscan' so a 1:1 scaling of HD sources?

No idea. Full HD should come out unaltered. For DVD, analog (e.g. VCR) and
SD sources it will have to be upscaled somewhere, although I think it is
best to let the set do it.


I'll ask about such things in the shop. But some comments here to clarify
what I should be able to expect would be helpful.

Buy the boxes from Richer Sounds, buy the cables from CPC. Cheap cables are
just fine for digital.


Cheers,

Jim

HDTVs and audio
 

R. Mark Clayton wrote:


Allow no 'overscan' so a 1:1 scaling of HD sources?

No idea. Full HD should come out unaltered.

It doesn't on any HD sets, they are all set to 3ish % overscan,
which means that rescaling is going on, even on native 1920 x 1080
broadcasts.

My folks have an LG, I can't find the 1:1 pixel mode setting.

Take a look at this screen shot taken from BBC News HD, note the gap
under the ticker, see if you have the same ?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5h6i6aymfb...2016.18.43.jpg


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

HDTVs and audio
 

In article ,
Mark Carver wrote:

R. Mark Clayton wrote:

It doesn't on any HD sets, they are all set to 3ish % overscan,
which means that rescaling is going on, even on native 1920 x 1080
broadcasts.

My Sony Bravia is set to a slight overscan by default, but there is a
setting for the HDMI inputs to be 'pixel perfect', i.e. no overscan and
an exact pixel for pixel match to the source. Occasionally you get fine
lines at the edges of the picture as a result.

HDTVs and audio
 

In article , R. Mark Clayton
wrote:
Mine is LG

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


4) Does HDMI ensure audio-video synch? Either from the TV's digital
output, or by telling the HDMI source and allowing a digital spdif
output from that to be delayed to match? Or?

Never had any trouble with this. Kindly the BBC outputs a couple of
minutes a day of test card with speaker and synch tests to allow you to
check everything is correct. Any delay will be set specific.

When is the HD testcard broadcast and on what 'station'? I recall getting a
copy from the HDTV a long time ago, but I thought it just popped up
occasionally so you had to guess when it would show.

I'll ask about such things in the shop. But some comments here to
clarify what I should be able to expect would be helpful.

Buy the boxes from Richer Sounds,

I'll probably buy the TV from a local shop if they have what I want.
Otherwise I may look to John Lewis to get one. Either way, I'll need them
to also cart away my old CRT set (analogue). I can't even lift that, let
alone put it out for collection!


buy the cables from CPC. Cheap cables
are just fine for digital.

Erm. yes, I think I'd guessed that. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

HDTVs and audio
 

IMLE (sample of 2 Sonys) yes, yes, yes, no
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

HDTVs and audio
 

On 01/01/2014 17:14, Roger Wilmut wrote:
In article ,
Mark Carver wrote:

R. Mark Clayton wrote:

It doesn't on any HD sets, they are all set to 3ish % overscan,
which means that rescaling is going on, even on native 1920 x 1080
broadcasts.

My Sony Bravia is set to a slight overscan by default, but there is a
setting for the HDMI inputs to be 'pixel perfect', i.e. no overscan and
an exact pixel for pixel match to the source. Occasionally you get fine
lines at the edges of the picture as a result.




with an older sky box i found that on certain sd channels (the non full
pal resolution ones), the box was inserting bright blue pillarboxes on
the extreme left and right of the image.
a later replacement sky box wisely made them black instead so back came
my zero overscan setting.

--
Gareth.
That fly.... Is your magic wand.

HDTVs and audio
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
At long last I've decided to take the plunge and buy an HDTV 'Freeview'
set.

Steady on Jim!

Almost certainly an LED Panasonic of modest size.

Experience of what customers have said, plus my own experience, tells me
that you should get a slightly bigger screen than you think you want, if
you aren't used to HD.

I'd welcome some
answers to a few pretty basic questions, mainly wrt the audio side of
operations.

FWIW I simply take the audio from the 'headphone' jack on the (Sony) TV.
The telly is set for the internal speaker to be muted. This works
perfectly for analogue and digital reception, reception via scart and
HDMI. Full control of volume and no sync problems. If I compare Swiss
Classic direct or via the telly there's no difference that I can tell.


Are middle-of-the range panasonics likely to have 3 HDMI sockets?

Each model either will or won't. It isn't a probability thing. Google it.

Why Panasonic, particularly?

I'll ask about such things in the shop.

A complete and utter waste of time breath and temper. You'd better
taking a ride over the bridge to Edinburgh and asking the chimps in the
zoo. While you're there have a look at what's on the floor in the
elephant house. That'll give you an idea of what the answer would be
like if you asked the boys in the TV shop about overscan.

But some comments here to clarify
what I should be able to expect would be helpful.
The only question worth asking in the shop is "Can you match the
internet price?"

Bill

HDTVs and audio
 

Mark Carver wrote:

It doesn't on any HD sets, they are all set to 3ish % overscan,
which means that rescaling is going on, even on native 1920 x 1080
broadcasts.

True, but as with Roger, my Sony will let me set it to exact pixel
mapping.

--
SteveT

HDTVs and audio
 

Steve Thackery wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:

It doesn't on any HD sets, they are all set to 3ish % overscan,
which means that rescaling is going on, even on native 1920 x 1080
broadcasts.

True, but as with Roger, my Sony will let me set it to exact pixel
mapping.

I know it will, and so does mine, what is it you didn't understand
about my original responce to Jim ? ;-)



--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

HDTVs and audio
 

Mark Carver wrote:
Steve Thackery wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:

It doesn't on any HD sets, they are all set to 3ish % overscan,
which means that rescaling is going on, even on native 1920 x 1080
broadcasts.

True, but as with Roger, my Sony will let me set it to exact pixel
mapping.

I know it will, and so does mine, what is it you didn't understand
about my original responce to Jim ? ;-)


Don't call him a ponce!

Bill

HDTVs and audio
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?

An alternative, depending on your audio equipment, is to send the
output by HDMI too, using the audio return channel. This has the
advantage (from my point of view) that you can use the TV's volume
control - volume up and down are sent through the HDMI connection.

Are middle-of-the range panasonics likely to have 3 HDMI sockets?

My 2010 model has three on the back and one on the side, useful for
temporary connections.

-- Richard

HDTVs and audio
 

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 17:14:59 +0000, Roger Wilmut
wrote:

In article ,
Mark Carver wrote:

R. Mark Clayton wrote:

It doesn't on any HD sets, they are all set to 3ish % overscan,
which means that rescaling is going on, even on native 1920 x 1080
broadcasts.

My Sony Bravia is set to a slight overscan by default, but there is a
setting for the HDMI inputs to be 'pixel perfect', i.e. no overscan and
an exact pixel for pixel match to the source. Occasionally you get fine
lines at the edges of the picture as a result.

Back in the days of analogue TV tuner expansion cards (when 30GB HDDs
had just become affordable) and the typical PC didn't have quite
enough 'grunt' to effectively do the mpg compression on-the-fly to
avoid burning up HDD space at the rate of a 100MB per minute), I used
to do most of my viewing using the PC and wondered why on earth anyone
would put up with the outrageous overscan typical of most domestic TV
sets of the day (circa 2000).

Later, sometime in 2005, when I installed my first DVB-T adapter, I
still had the same opinion (but the bit rates employed by BBC1 and
BBC2 were still quite respectable back then).

It's only in recent years with the bit rates now only at around 50 to
75% of what they used to be that I can see a need to offer an
'overscan' option.

With mpeg compression, the edges of the transmitted picture will
exhibit compression artifacts at a noticably higher level than
elsewhere. With the less aggressive compression used in the early
days, this wasn't too much of a distraction but since then, they've
become more pronounced and now I can see some merit in emulating
'overscan'.

With a "Pixel Perfect" display, rescaling to achieve this 'overscan'
is just an unnecessary act of stupidity. A superior method when the
transmitted pictures exactly match the display resolution is to blank
out the offending edges. This will shrink the display area slightly
but, provided the bezel is of the correct colour (pitch black, of
course!), the result will be more acceptable than adding scaling
artifacts to a picture already compromised in quality due to the lossy
compression employed by the broadcast system.

In the case of a "Full HD FreeView" set with a 1080 line dispalay
panel this would only really benefit Full HD broadcasts. When such a
set is used to receive SD broadcasts which have to be upscaled anyway,
they can be upscaled to create an actual overscan to eliminate the
edge compression artifacts when the viewer chooses the overscan option
since whatever upscaling artifacts are there are unlikely to be
noticably worse for this display mode.

It's quite possible that I'm describing exactly the process in use
for the HD overscan option, I'm not familiar with HD TV technology
since I've no burning desire, as yet, to "upgrade" anytime soon.
--
Regards, J B Good

HDTVs and audio
 

Richard Tobin wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?

An alternative, depending on your audio equipment, is to send the
output by HDMI too, using the audio return channel.

Then you're at the mercy of whatever DAC in in the amp, it also requires
HDMI 1.4 support in TV and amp, not likely to be an issue for new kit.

This has the advantage (from my point of view) that you can use the
TV's volume control - volume up and down are sent through the HDMI
connection.

You don't need to use ARC to get that, my amp does support ARC but TV is
older and only has HDMI 1.3, so I use SP/DIF from TV to amp, and the CEC
channel lets the TV's remote control the amp's volume (once the TV's
internal speakers have been deselected) in addition turning on/off the
TV makes the amp follow suit.

HDTVs and audio
 

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 14:58:02 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf wrote:

At long last I've decided to take the plunge and buy an HDTV 'Freeview'
set. Almost certainly an LED Panasonic of modest size. I'd welcome some
answers to a few pretty basic questions, mainly wrt the audio side of
operations.

Right, I have a new(ish) Panasonic, bought in September from Richer Sounds -
I'd recommend RS or JL as the prices are good (especially taking into
account no (added) delivery charge and the 5-year warranty).
Mine is probably mid-range and is this one:
http://www.richersounds.com/product/...ana-txl50et60b
or - oh, looks as if JL's not doing the same model now
http://www.johnlewis.com/electricals...048/c800005013


1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?

Yes, I have HDMI from the AVR then SPDIF to the AVR on one socket and the
Humax Freesat PVR on another.
I don't have HDMI Service enabled in the AVR as that takes the standby power
from 1W to ~19W!

If the answer to (1) is 'yes':

2) Is it normal to then be able to mute the TV's own speakers so you just
can use a hifi and the external DAC for the audio?

Simple - turn the TV's volume to 0.

3) Does that normally then bypass any 'volume control' of the TV set? Or is
this user-choosable, or what?

Not on mine and also the headphone socket doesn't cut the speakers. Instead
of running the AVR at 45W all the while - not needed for most programmes -
I've a pair of active PC speakers. The volume control on the PVR will
control these but not the on on the TV, so not very good.

4) Does HDMI ensure audio-video synch? Either from the TV's digital output,
or by telling the HDMI source and allowing a digital spdif output from that
to be delayed to match? Or?

It seems to be OK. I had to adjust the sync. once, for a recording on the
PVR, but it is OK for both DTTV and DSTV.

It would be convenient from my POV is the TV acted simply as a 'pass
though' for the audio from external sources - e.g. DVD player. So ensured
lip-synch by otherwise allowed the audio samples to be 'as from the source'
without any sounds from the TVs speakers. But is the norm? Or is there a
problem here?

It could be possible but I don't yet know. On my model, the BD player (LG)
won't show on the TV through either the AVR or its own direct connection.

Also:

Are middle-of-the range panasonics likely to have 3 HDMI sockets?

Mine has. RS has reasonable details, or try:
http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer...sions/led.html

Allow no 'overscan' so a 1:1 scaling of HD sources?

Yes.

I'll ask about such things in the shop. But some comments here to clarify
what I should be able to expect would be helpful.

Cheers,

Jim

Panny shops probably no good; RS - pot luck but can be good; same with JL
really.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

HDTVs and audio
 

On 01/01/2014 17:18, Jim Lesurf wrote:


Never had any trouble with this. Kindly the BBC outputs a couple of
minutes a day of test card with speaker and synch tests to allow you to
check everything is correct. Any delay will be set specific.

When is the HD testcard broadcast and on what 'station'?

It used to be carried on BBC HD, but that's now been converted to BBC 2
HD, and sadly no longer has any downtime to carry the test signals.

There is 03:00hrs to 06:00hrs that could be used, but that space is used
for back to back BBC 2 promos


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

HDTVs and audio
 

Johny B Good wrote:

With mpeg compression, the edges of the transmitted picture will
exhibit compression artifacts at a noticably higher level than
elsewhere.

Are you sure? The edges? That's not my experience as a viewer
(although I don't know anything much about the MPEG compression
algorithm).

As a viewer, the compression artefacts become most obvious on large
areas of similar colour which move, such as mist. I certainly haven't
spotted anything odd about the edges.

Could you provide a reference for me to read up more about it?

--
SteveT

HDTVs and audio
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Using the TVs 'volume control' something I'd tend to avoid if possible as I
have no idea how well it can scale the values.

My TV just seems to send "+" and "-" commands to the amp rather than
absolute values, my amp is set for a 0-100 scale with 0.5 unit steps
which is finer than the TV's inbuilt volume control (0 to 63 I think)
the amp has the option of using a dB scale but my brain doesn't
naturally use logs.

HDTVs and audio
 

Steve Thackery wrote:
Johny B Good wrote:

With mpeg compression, the edges of the transmitted picture will
exhibit compression artifacts at a noticably higher level than
elsewhere.

Are you sure? The edges? That's not my experience as a viewer
(although I don't know anything much about the MPEG compression
algorithm).

As a viewer, the compression artefacts become most obvious on large
areas of similar colour which move, such as mist. I certainly
haven't spotted anything odd about the edges.

Could you provide a reference for me to read up more about it?

I always thought the crappy edges were scaler artifacts rather than
mpeg/bitrate related - but then I could be wrong.

HDTVs and audio
 

On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 14:58:02 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:
3) Does that normally then bypass any 'volume control' of the TV
set? Or is
this user-choosable, or what?

My TV and Audio system - both Samsung - have integrated control
through the remote (Samsung's implementation of HDMI-CEC). When the
Home Theatre is on, the TV remote audio buttons control it's volume
and TV speakers are off.

CEC isn't guaranteed to work if devices are from different brands.
On my set-up, the HT has to be switched on manually (or via TV
remote) - it's not automatic with TV start-up.

It would be convenient from my POV is the TV acted simply as a 'pass
though' for the audio from external sources - e.g. DVD player. So
ensured
lip-synch by otherwise allowed the audio samples to be 'as from the
source'
without any sounds from the TVs speakers. But is the norm? Or is
there a
problem here?

What you need to check is whether the TV will pass through
multi-channel audio. My model down-mixes to stereo, but this was
changed in later ones. I believe there was some licensing issue
involved.
,
You will get more detailed answers from AV web forums. There will
likely find threads dedicated to a candidate model.

HDTVs and audio
 

In article , Andy
Burns
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Using the TVs 'volume control' something I'd tend to avoid if possible
as I have no idea how well it can scale the values.

My TV just seems to send "+" and "-" commands to the amp rather than
absolute values, my amp is set for a 0-100 scale with 0.5 unit steps
which is finer than the TV's inbuilt volume control (0 to 63 I think)
the amp has the option of using a dB scale but my brain doesn't
naturally use logs.

FWIW human response to how loud sounds are tends to be more like a 'log'
variation. So values in dB seem fairly natural to me. Indeed, I regret that
many modern hifi amps lack precise steps in a quasi-log sequence on their
mechanical volume controls.

My concern about scaling, though, isn't the law of the adjustement. But
questions like how well the *sample values* are scaled. e.g. the need to
dither or noise shape to avoid adding distortion unless it is 24bit (or
more).

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

HDTVs and audio
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
At long last I've decided to take the plunge and buy an HDTV 'Freeview'
set. Almost certainly an LED Panasonic of modest size. I'd welcome some
answers to a few pretty basic questions, mainly wrt the audio side of
operations.

1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?

More common is optical out.

If the answer to (1) is 'yes':

2) Is it normal to then be able to mute the TV's own speakers so you just
can use a hifi and the external DAC for the audio?

Yes. There is often a menu setting that allows you to turn off the
internal speakers.

3) Does that normally then bypass any 'volume control' of the TV set? Or
is this user-choosable, or what?

Again yes - or could be either. The mute control may still work, though.
Which can be handy.

4) Does HDMI ensure audio-video synch? Either from the TV's digital
output, or by telling the HDMI source and allowing a digital spdif
output from that to be delayed to match? Or?

Seems OK here.

It would be convenient from my POV is the TV acted simply as a 'pass
though' for the audio from external sources - e.g. DVD player. So
ensured lip-synch by otherwise allowed the audio samples to be 'as from
the source' without any sounds from the TVs speakers. But is the norm?
Or is there a problem here?

Any audio delay is normally applied to the output from the TV, so if you
route your DVD etc through it all should be fine. The snags arise if you
feed the audio direct to an external amp.

Also:

Are middle-of-the range panasonics likely to have 3 HDMI sockets?

Should have, but check. Some bargains may be old models with fewer inputs
than the current norm. Mine has three and an additional HDMI for computer
- I'm not quite sure what is different with this one, yet. I'm wondering
if it allows two way 'traffic'.

Allow no 'overscan' so a 1:1 scaling of HD sources?

Most give a bewildering variety of choices. Hopefully with the correct one
in there somewhere.

I'll ask about such things in the shop. But some comments here to clarify
what I should be able to expect would be helpful.

If you look on the Curries website, you'll find basic information about
number of inputs etc. And whether it has an HD FreeView tuner - not all
smaller sets do, although may claim to be full HD.

In my experience you can generally forget asking a shop assistant about
such things. Unless you have a decent independant retailer - but be
prepared to pay rather more for the same set than you might otherwise.

Perhaps if you find the model that seems to suit you online and give its
number, someone with it could give more specific answers.

--
*(on a baby-size shirt) "Party -- my crib -- two a.m

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

HDTVs and audio
 

On 02/01/2014 13:01, Andy Furniss wrote:

I always thought the crappy edges were scaler artifacts rather than
mpeg/bitrate related - but then I could be wrong.

They mostly appear to be blanking errors, which by rights shouldn't
be there on a completely end to end digital system.

One problem however are digital effects units, where the background
(next event) image is sometimes one pixel (each side) wider and one
pixel higher (top and bottom) than the foreground image.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

HDTVs and audio
 

Mark Carver wrote:
On 02/01/2014 13:01, Andy Furniss wrote:

I always thought the crappy edges were scaler artifacts rather
than mpeg/bitrate related - but then I could be wrong.

They mostly appear to be blanking errors, which by rights shouldn't
be there on a completely end to end digital system.

One problem however are digital effects units, where the background
(next event) image is sometimes one pixel (each side) wider and one
pixel higher (top and bottom) than the foreground image.


Ahh, something different then. I was thinking scaler artifacts relying
on vague memories or reading something, probably by Clive Poynton, which
said multi tap scaler artifacts were expected on edges.

I don't actually watch much TV, and TBH they aren't that noticable
anyway - slightly more annoying is why do the BBC scale down to 704 and
put it in 720 - why not just to broadcast 704 and loose the black bars?

HDTVs and audio
 

In article , Jim
wrote:
On Wed, 01 Jan 2014 14:58:02 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:


What you need to check is whether the TV will pass through
multi-channel audio. My model down-mixes to stereo, but this was
changed in later ones. I believe there was some licensing issue
involved. , You will get more detailed answers from AV web forums.
There will likely find threads dedicated to a candidate model.

I'm only really interested in stereo for audio. The room isn't big enough
for two more Quad ESLs anyway! 8-] So now I always set sources to output
stereo LPCM, not bitreams.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

HDTVs and audio
 

On 01/01/2014 14:58, Jim Lesurf wrote:
At long last I've decided to take the plunge and buy an HDTV 'Freeview'
set. Almost certainly an LED Panasonic of modest size. I'd welcome some
answers to a few pretty basic questions, mainly wrt the audio side of
operations.

1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?


My Samsung TV does this

If the answer to (1) is 'yes':

2) Is it normal to then be able to mute the TV's own speakers so you just
can use a hifi and the external DAC for the audio?

If I mute the TV sound then there is an icon on the screen. Turning down
the volume works fine


3) Does that normally then bypass any 'volume control' of the TV set? Or is
this user-choosable, or what?


In my case the SPDIF output volume is determined by the HDMI input volume.



4) Does HDMI ensure audio-video synch? Either from the TV's digital output,
or by telling the HDMI source and allowing a digital spdif output from that
to be delayed to match? Or?


No, my TV allows the sync to be adjusted. Unfortunately the TV is quite
good at forgetting what the setting should be. So I change the delay,
and then put it back to where it was and the sound is then in sync


It would be convenient from my POV is the TV acted simply as a 'pass
though' for the audio from external sources - e.g. DVD player. So ensured
lip-synch by otherwise allowed the audio samples to be 'as from the source'
without any sounds from the TVs speakers. But is the norm? Or is there a
problem here?


My TV converts the analogue signal from a scart socket to digital and
outputs it via the SPDIF port (likely it also did the same for analogue
TV - but those days are gone)


--
Michael Chare

HDTVs and audio
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

My TV just seems to send "+" and "-" commands to the amp rather
than absolute values [...] the amp has the option of using a dB
scale but my brain doesn't naturally use logs.

FWIW human response to how loud sounds are tends to be more like a 'log'
variation. So values in dB seem fairly natural to me.

Oh, I'm aware that hearing works in a log fashion, but that doesn't mean
I can glance at a display on the other side of the room reading -33.5dB
and instinctively know whether that means blaring or quiet :-)

HDTVs and audio
 

In article , Andy
Burns
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

My TV just seems to send "+" and "-" commands to the amp rather than
absolute values [...] the amp has the option of using a dB scale but
my brain doesn't naturally use logs.

FWIW human response to how loud sounds are tends to be more like a
'log' variation. So values in dB seem fairly natural to me.

Oh, I'm aware that hearing works in a log fashion, but that doesn't mean
I can glance at a display on the other side of the room reading -33.5dB
and instinctively know whether that means blaring or quiet :-)

Hardly surprising given that the mean level for pop/rock music may well be
20- 30dB higher than a lot of classical music! So it'll obvious depend on
what you're feeding into the system. :-)

FWIW Although the sources have gain controls I use the analogue volume
control on the preamps. (modified quad 34s) Typically I usually have this
set about 20dB higher for classical music from R3 or my own files than
rock/pop CDs.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

HDTVs and audio
 

In article , Michael
Chare [email protected] wrote:
On 01/01/2014 14:58, Jim Lesurf wrote:

2) Is it normal to then be able to mute the TV's own speakers so you
just can use a hifi and the external DAC for the audio?

If I mute the TV sound then there is an icon on the screen. Turning down
the volume works fine

Do that with our existing CRT set. Perhaps a sign of the poor regard TV
builders have for audio is that you can still hear *hiss* from the TV
speakers if you have your head near to them with no audio playing.
Ludicrous for modern power amps after a volume control to do that.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

HDTVs and audio
 

On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:11:43 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Using the TVs 'volume control' something I'd tend to avoid if possible as I
have no idea how well it can scale the values.

My TV just seems to send "+" and "-" commands to the amp rather than
absolute values, my amp is set for a 0-100 scale with 0.5 unit steps
which is finer than the TV's inbuilt volume control (0 to 63 I think)
the amp has the option of using a dB scale but my brain doesn't
naturally use logs.

Be glad that you're not using the volume control on the Humax Freesat PVR -
5% steps!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

HDTVs and audio
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

FWIW I simply take the audio from the 'headphone' jack on the (Sony) TV.
The telly is set for the internal speaker to be muted. This works
perfectly for analogue and digital reception, reception via scart and
HDMI. Full control of volume and no sync problems. If I compare Swiss
Classic direct or via the telly there's no difference that I can tell.

The only TV I've ever had with almost decent analogue audio output was a
B&O one decades ago. Alas monophonic 4:3. The analogue output from other
sets seems always to give hum problems, background noise, distorted peaks,
etc. So I regard the analogue sound circuits in TVs as best avoided.

It could be that your opinion is based on the use of old CRT sets. I
have absolutely no issues with the analogue audio from my new Sony. And
I am very critical.

Does "the internet" always come and take away my old CRT so I don't even
have to try and lift it? I expect John Lewis probably do, but I'm less sure
about the tax dodgers.

I suppose if you don't have any helpful friends or neighbours you should
weigh up any extra cost incurred by using the local firm versus the cost
of disposing of the old set. Won't the council take it? If it still
works won't you be putting it in a bedroom, or using Freecycle?

Bill

HDTVs and audio
 

In article , Bill Wright
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

FWIW I simply take the audio from the 'headphone' jack on the (Sony)
TV. The telly is set for the internal speaker to be muted. This works
perfectly for analogue and digital reception, reception via scart and
HDMI. Full control of volume and no sync problems. If I compare Swiss
Classic direct or via the telly there's no difference that I can tell.

The only TV I've ever had with almost decent analogue audio output was
a B&O one decades ago. Alas monophonic 4:3. The analogue output from
other sets seems always to give hum problems, background noise,
distorted peaks, etc. So I regard the analogue sound circuits in TVs
as best avoided.

It could be that your opinion is based on the use of old CRT sets.

About 10 years old.

As I said, the previous set (B&O) was better in general audio terms and
would drive a fair external speaker. No noise from the speakers when the
volume was wound down, etc. But it was monophonic analogue 4:3 of the
pre-scart generation. So we replaced it when digital came along...

Does "the internet" always come and take away my old CRT so I don't
even have to try and lift it? I expect John Lewis probably do, but I'm
less sure about the tax dodgers.

I suppose if you don't have any helpful friends or neighbours you should
weigh up any extra cost incurred by using the local firm versus the cost
of disposing of the old set.

Plus, of course, the wish to see some of the profit 'stay local' with
ordinary shops rather tha be taken afar by big companies who may also do
things like dodge tax. Surprised if you don't understand that someone might
prefer to support local small businesses and employment if they can do the
job OK. Particularly to help ensure they will be there when we buy other
more day-to-day items However in the end I'll decide on the basis of what
they offer and if it suits. If they don't have something we like, I'll look
elsewhere. Probably JL being the next port of call as there aren't any
other local shops for TVs.


Won't the council take it? If it still
works won't you be putting it in a bedroom, or using Freecycle?

The council would take it from the kerbside for 25 quid. But I can't even
lift it, let alone carry it that far. Nor could I plus better-half. Totally
out of the question to carry it up the stairs even if we wanted a TV that
size up there! In fact, I'd fear for the floor upstairs as its a loft
conversion.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

HDTVs and audio
 

On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 04:45:49 -0600, "Steve Thackery"
wrote:

Johny B Good wrote:

With mpeg compression, the edges of the transmitted picture will
exhibit compression artifacts at a noticably higher level than
elsewhere.

Are you sure? The edges? That's not my experience as a viewer
(although I don't know anything much about the MPEG compression
algorithm).

As a viewer, the compression artefacts become most obvious on large
areas of similar colour which move, such as mist. I certainly haven't
spotted anything odd about the edges.

That's possibly due to your attention being drawn away from the edges
by the compression artifacts you've so accurately observed (tempted as
I am, I'll not raise any 'conspiracy theories' about 'distraction
techniques' being used by the mpeg codecs).


Could you provide a reference for me to read up more about it?

I'm afraid I can't. You'll just have to scrutinise the edges of mpeg
material more closely than usual. You should see the effect soon
enough (most apparent with largish areas of mid luminence colour tones
that are cropped by the frame edge).

The effect seems most pronounced on the side edges but is still, to a
less obvious degree, present at the top and bottom edges of the frame.

You won't, as a matter of course, be able to observe the effect if
the display is 'overscanning' the transmitted frame beyond the edges
of the display area. Your best chance of seeing picture content right
out to the edges of the trasmitted picture is to use a computer to
playback the movie file.

Once you've tried this exercise in observation, you'll be able to
better relate to the use of 'overscanning' in a modern day TV sets
when you come to google for references to this effect.
--
Regards, J B Good

HDTVs and audio
 

I'll probably buy the TV from a local shop if they have what I want.
Otherwise I may look to John Lewis to get one. Either way, I'll need
them to also cart away my old CRT set (analogue). I can't even lift
that, let alone put it out for collection!

John Lewis will take away your old set for £9 if you buy a large screen
TV (37" or over).


--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

HDTVs and audio
 

Johny B Good wrote:

Once you've tried this exercise in observation, you'll be able to
better relate to the use of 'overscanning' in a modern day TV sets
when you come to google for references to this effect.

Well, I don't use overscanning. All of my viewing is in HD where
possible, and I have the TV set to pixel-to-pixel mapping at all times.

To be honest I don't notice any of the typical compression artefacts in
HD, but I do get annoyed at how "soft" they've made the pictures
(presumably to reduce the bandwidth requirements). They aren't
*really* 1920 x 1080, because the fine details smooth out at a far
larger scale than the individual pixels. They're just transmitted as
such.

--
SteveT

HDTVs and audio
 

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
o.uk...
Richard Tobin wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

1) Is it standard for such sets to accept audio in via HDMI and then
copy
that out via an SPDIF coax/optical outlet for connection to a decent
external DAC?

An alternative, depending on your audio equipment, is to send the
output by HDMI too, using the audio return channel.

Then you're at the mercy of whatever DAC in in the amp,

true, but if you can spot it, you must have pretty good ears.

it also requires HDMI 1.4 support in TV and amp, not likely to be an issue
for new kit.

true, then use optical or coax.


This has the advantage (from my point of view) that you can use the
TV's volume control - volume up and down are sent through the HDMI
connection.

Are you sure?


You don't need to use ARC to get that, my amp does support ARC but TV is
older and only has HDMI 1.3, so I use SP/DIF from TV to amp, and the CEC
channel lets the TV's remote control the amp's volume (once the TV's
internal speakers have been deselected) in addition turning on/off the TV
makes the amp follow suit.

HDTVs and audio
 

On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 16:22:35 -0600, "Steve Thackery"
wrote:

Johny B Good wrote:

Once you've tried this exercise in observation, you'll be able to
better relate to the use of 'overscanning' in a modern day TV sets
when you come to google for references to this effect.

Well, I don't use overscanning. All of my viewing is in HD where
possible, and I have the TV set to pixel-to-pixel mapping at all times.

To be honest I don't notice any of the typical compression artefacts in
HD, but I do get annoyed at how "soft" they've made the pictures
(presumably to reduce the bandwidth requirements). They aren't
*really* 1920 x 1080, because the fine details smooth out at a far
larger scale than the individual pixels. They're just transmitted as
such.

To be fair, it's not a particularly noticable effect until you get
bored by the picture content and let your gaze wander off to the
edges. Once you've spotted this 'edge effect' (usually on very slow
pans with bland mid tone backgrounds), you're more likely to spot it
almost every time the picture content becomes less than attention
grabbing.

Even at its most obvious, the effect isn't a serious distraction in
dire need of removal by 'overscanning'. It's just that this seems to
be the only "good" reason for having an 'overscan' option at all.
--
Regards, J B Good

HDTVs and audio
 

In article ,
R. Mark Clayton wrote:

This has the advantage (from my point of view) that you can use the
TV's volume control - volume up and down are sent through the HDMI
connection.

Are you sure?

Yes. That's how I do it on my Panasonic TV with Onkyo receiver. I
only use the receiver remote when I'm playing CDs - everything else
goes through the TV.

-- Richard

HDTVs and audio
 

R. Mark Clayton wrote:

"Andy Burns" wrote:

Then you're at the mercy of whatever DAC in in the amp,

true, but if you can spot it, you must have pretty good ears.

I wouldn't claim my ears are up to it, but Jim obviously does :-P

Richard Tobin wrote:

This has the advantage (from my point of view) that you can use the
TV's volume control - volume up and down are sent through the HDMI
connection.

Are you sure?

Yes.