Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

Mark Carver wrote:

I've explained in this newsgroup on countless occasions how the BBC
regional opting works, and how the BBC SD and HD muxes are arranged and
distributed, I really can't be arsed to go through it all again.

And sort your bloody message settings out, haven't you noticed the
comments more and more are making about the shambolic mess you post ?

Touch of the Victor Meldrews, Mark? You're starting to sound like me!

Bill

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

On 22/12/2013 10:56, Peter Duncanson wrote:

Are you suggesting that an HD receiver should have only the HD versions
of channels in the EPG where both SD and HD versions are transmitted?

There are two problems with that to do with receivers that record.

1. The recording of a programme in HD occupies substantially more disc
space than the SD equivalent.

2. On both Freesat and Freeview HD material is recorded on disc in
"encrypted" form. The recording also contains an identifier which means
that it can be replayed only on the box that recorded it. It cannot be
copied to and replayed on any other box even of the same type, or on a
PC or other device.


The powers that be don't consider that, just the convenience of finding
the "best quality" version of a channel on the lowest number.

The original poster from another forum just says that his french
receiver automatically puts the HD channels first in the EPG.

Richard

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

"Dickie mint" wrote in message
...
It's late, my brain is almost asleep, maybe I should leave this till
morning. But then I'll forget to post it again!!

This comment from another forum raises the question of "How's it done?"

"UK EPGs are very poor as far as channel allocation is concerned. TNT in
France have a much better system whereby HD versions appear on the same
channel numbers on an HD receiver as the SD versions do on an SD receiver.
On the HD receiver, the SD versions are then shuffled up to higher channel
numbers.

On an SD receiver, the first seven channels are TF1, FR2, FR3, Canal+,
FR5, M6 and Arte.

On my Sagem the first seven channels are TF1-HD, FR2-HD, FR3, Canal+ HD,
FR5, M6 HD and Arte HD. (TF1 is on 51, FR2 on 52, M6 on 56 and Arte on
57 - all 50 channels higher.)

To my mind, that's how it ought to work. Why can't UK EPGs be as simple
instead of hiding HD channels all over the place!!?"

Richard

Yes it is a bit mixed in the UK. BBC and ITV channels have different
numbers for HD, whereas RT has the same one (206).

BTW how, when and where did you get your French box? as the channels are not
FTA here and IIRC only FTV in France

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 21:14:43 +0000, Dickie mint
wrote:

It's late, my brain is almost asleep, maybe I should leave this till
morning. But then I'll forget to post it again!!

This comment from another forum raises the question of "How's it done?"

"UK EPGs are very poor as far as channel allocation is concerned. TNT in
France have a much better system whereby HD versions appear on the same
channel numbers on an HD receiver as the SD versions do on an SD
receiver. On the HD receiver, the SD versions are then shuffled up to
higher channel numbers.

On an SD receiver, the first seven channels are TF1, FR2, FR3, Canal+,
FR5, M6 and Arte.

On my Sagem the first seven channels are TF1-HD, FR2-HD, FR3, Canal+ HD,
FR5, M6 HD and Arte HD. (TF1 is on 51, FR2 on 52, M6 on 56 and Arte on
57 - all 50 channels higher.)

To my mind, that's how it ought to work. Why can't UK EPGs be as simple
instead of hiding HD channels all over the place!!?"

Richard

Are you suggesting that an HD receiver should have only the HD versions
of channels in the EPG where both SD and HD versions are transmitted?

There are two problems with that to do with receivers that record.

1. The recording of a programme in HD occupies substantially more disc
space than the SD equivalent.

2. On both Freesat and Freeview HD material is recorded on disc in
"encrypted" form. The recording also contains an identifier which means
that it can be replayed only on the box that recorded it. It cannot be
copied to and replayed on any other box even of the same type, or on a
PC or other device.


And 3 programming disappears from time to time on HD - e.g. when the local
news comes on.


--
Peter Duncanson
(in uk.tech.digital-tv)

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

On 22/12/2013 16:48, R. Mark Clayton wrote:

BTW how, when and where did you get your French box? as the channels are not
FTA here and IIRC only FTV in France


This was a comment in another, private, forum. I'd either have to ask
him or read 16 pages of the topic to see if he tells!

Richard

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

"Mark Carver" wrote in message ...

At least there's now early signs of exact HD simulcasts of SD versions
taking
their 'primary' EPG positions on Sky. Nothing yet for Freesat or Freeview.



From my now decaying memories of having to help come up solutions to these
sort of problems in the past it is much easier to do on closed system like
Sky.

To solve this particular problem I think the systems need to differentiate
between HD capable and SD only receivers. This needs changes at both ends.
The radiated stream needs to contain alternate definitions of the channel
numbers and the receivers need to know which set of definitions to use.

On a closed system, like Sky, the broadcaster has total control of both
ends. The stream is effectively proprietary so can be modified at will and
the receivers can be updated with new firmware. It still needs a lot of
testing but the number of receiver variants is probably fairly limited. I
think Sky already had in place a means of separating their HD and SD
receivers so the differing channel numbers was probably a fairly simple step
to implement.

I see Freesat as a semi closed system. The Service Information is carried
in a proprietary form but I think receiver variants is over a broader range
than Sky and the commitment to update the receivers would probably be up to
individual manufactures. I guess it is though still fairly well contained
and be the easiest next one to tackle

I think Freeview is a lot harder. Here there is a much broader and open
receiver base. Certainly in the past we have had problems with what we
thought were simple, in-specification, changes that caused issues with some
receivers (split NIT anyone?) which were impossible to fix in some cases
because the receiver manufacture no longer existed.

I mentioned past split NIT problems on purpose because on Freeview it is
the NIT (Network Information Table) that contains the logical channel
numbers (LCNs) which are carried in a private descriptor. From my direction
Freeview would need a new private descriptor in the NIT that contained the
logical channel numbers for an HD capable receiver which gave priority to
the HD services. The SD services would still be there but at alternate,
non-preferred numbers. This would have the advantage that the SD receivers
would by default use the existing LCN descriptor and not hopefully need
updating. Changes to the NIT are not unprecedented as I believe new private
descriptors were added to signal service changes for switch-over but I would
worry if the NIT table needed to be expanded into another section and risk a
re-occurrence of the split NIT problems.

I therefore think the risks are particularly high for a Freeview
implementation and would need a considerable testing commitment particularly
given the wide receiver base. It would also need a lot of commitment from
manufactures to update their receivers or it will only creep in very slowly
in later receiver variants.

From my direction it is fortunately no longer my problem but I do feel those
that will have solve these issues.

Glyn

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 10:56:02 +0000, Peter Duncanson wrote:

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 21:14:43 +0000, Dickie mint
wrote:

It's late, my brain is almost asleep, maybe I should leave this till
morning. But then I'll forget to post it again!!

This comment from another forum raises the question of "How's it done?"

"UK EPGs are very poor as far as channel allocation is concerned. TNT in
France have a much better system whereby HD versions appear on the same
channel numbers on an HD receiver as the SD versions do on an SD
receiver. On the HD receiver, the SD versions are then shuffled up to
higher channel numbers.

On an SD receiver, the first seven channels are TF1, FR2, FR3, Canal+,
FR5, M6 and Arte.

On my Sagem the first seven channels are TF1-HD, FR2-HD, FR3, Canal+ HD,
FR5, M6 HD and Arte HD. (TF1 is on 51, FR2 on 52, M6 on 56 and Arte on
57 - all 50 channels higher.)

To my mind, that's how it ought to work. Why can't UK EPGs be as simple
instead of hiding HD channels all over the place!!?"

Richard

Are you suggesting that an HD receiver should have only the HD versions
of channels in the EPG where both SD and HD versions are transmitted?

There are two problems with that to do with receivers that record.

1. The recording of a programme in HD occupies substantially more disc
space than the SD equivalent.

2. On both Freesat and Freeview HD material is recorded on disc in
"encrypted" form. The recording also contains an identifier which means
that it can be replayed only on the box that recorded it. It cannot be
copied to and replayed on any other box even of the same type, or on a
PC or other device.

and 3. Sometimes the +1 SD is useful for recording to avoid a clash.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

Glyn Morgan wrote:

I see Freesat as a semi closed system. The Service Information is
carried in a proprietary form but I think receiver variants is over a
broader range than Sky and the commitment to update the receivers would
probably be up to individual manufactures. I guess it is though still
fairly well contained and be the easiest next one to tackle

Freesat is fine I think. In 2012 the 24 HD Olympic streams occupied
on HD receivers the same EPG positions as the SD versions of the streams.
The SD streams did not appear on the HD receivers.

Same applies right now with NHK HD ?


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

On 22/12/2013 10:50, Mark Carver wrote:
Dickie mint wrote:


To my mind, that's how it ought to work. Why can't UK EPGs be as
simple instead of hiding HD channels all over the place!!?"

Because in the UK we seem to have developed a culture where a channel's
EPG position is almost more important than the actual content it's
carrying.

BBC 1, 2, ITV 1, C4, and C5 must occupy the five most prominent EPG
positions
on a UK EPG. Then there's other nonsense on Freeview about new channels not
being allowed to leap frog others in the EPG pecking order.

At least there's now early signs of exact HD simulcasts of SD versions
taking
their 'primary' EPG positions on Sky. Nothing yet for Freesat or Freeview.

The whole business needs to be subverted. Thankfully decent TV sets
today allow you to erase and reorder the Freeview EPG to your hearts
content. Regrettably Freesat is tied down by the broadcasters, and very
little of user customisation is possible. Of course Sky allows nothing
lie that !



Thanks, Glyn. I'll copy your reply to the guy, if that's alright? He'd
be able to read it if he knew how to find these forums!

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Richard
whose little grey cells were never 100% anyway.....

Using the same channel numbers for SD and HD
 

"Dickie mint" wrote in message ...

Thanks, Glyn. I'll copy your reply to the guy, if that's alright? He'd
be able to read it if he knew how to find these forums!

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

No problem, that is fine with me Richard.

Have a good Christmas,

Glyn