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Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me
as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. TIA Jim |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
In article ,
Jim wrote: OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. There could be a number of problems, so it's not going to be easy to give an instant answer. However, i suspect that your second amplifier (old labgear TV booster) might be one of them. I don't see the need for it, and it might well be overloading. First: take each tv set in turn to the incoming socket and feed it directly - then tune it. Then try each set simply via the lenght of cable you've already got in place. Does it work then? That will eliminate the cable. If you get problems, yes, replace the cable with some decent stuff. You don't mention the lengths, but I can't imagine the runs being very long. You'd be better off getting a 4 outlet amplifier rather than having one following another. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 18:19, Jim wrote:
OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. TIA Jim Guess some idea of coax length would have been handy, sorry about that. So from UHF socket to TV is 120 inches TV (in living room) to my desk where 10" TV is located is 260 inches. Desk to bedroom is 440 inches. Having wrote these down and seeing them in black and white I'm guessing some form of wireless would be good from desk to bedroom but that would be right on top of my router and cordless phone, oh well hope the measurements help some what. Jim |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
"Jim" wrote in message m... OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. TIA Jim Well the main thing is that they should not be daisy chained. The sequence should be: - W aerial | V wall socket | TV amp [optional see text] | toys PVR, DVD, $ky box etc. | 4 way splitter | | | | TV TV TV TV The four way splitter should be a reactive one (e.g. from Maplin £10). If you do not want to view the output of your boxes elsewhere then put them after the splitter and in any event use HDMI, component or SCARTs to get the output into your main TV. Test each TV / box individually on the incoming UHF to see they will search correctly. If the divided signal is insufficient so they won't work after the splitter, buy a cheap UHF amp and insert it before any boxes. If you are replacing cable(s) use CT100 or similar and keep the runs short and the joins to an absolute minimum. As it happens the arrangement in my flat is similar. We are ~30km from Winter Hill. The feed from the aerial goes to a [landlord's] six way amp for the 6 flats and then in my flat the arrangement is as above without the optional amp. In the smaller block the landlord's splitter is passive. Works fine. If you are not using the analogue signal in you main TV, then you can use two two way splitters. One signal (-3dB) from the first can go to your weakest device (probably the Freeview HD TV) and the other to the splitter for the other two (-6dB) and no aerial goes into the main TV. How far are you from Crystal Palace? |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
"Jim" wrote in message m... OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg snip You need to distribute from the single socket you have, amplifing there and then running a seperate cable to each device. [Charles has already mentioned this.] Get a decent 4 port (or more if you expect to add more devices) powered amplifier/splitter and site it as close to the incoming socket as possible. Then run independant good quality co-ax leads to each device. That is how a simple distribution system is set up. Bill will probably recommend the best device for the amplifier/splitter. Cheers Dave R -- No plan survives contact with the enemy. [Not even bunny] Helmuth von Moltke the Elder (\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:19:31 +0000, Jim wrote:
OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. TIA Jim As Charles as said you need to test each TV at the main socket with just a short flylead. Usually, if the signal is poor at the outlet plate no amount of amplification after it will improve matters. The other RF devices you mention are unlikely to cause DTT interference, and it's simple to eliminate them as the cause by switching them off while you rescan. -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 18:48:23 +0000, Jim wrote:
On 30/12/2012 18:19, Jim wrote: OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. TIA Jim Guess some idea of coax length would have been handy, sorry about that. So from UHF socket to TV is 120 inches TV (in living room) to my desk where 10" TV is located is 260 inches. Desk to bedroom is 440 inches. Having wrote these down and seeing them in black and white I'm guessing some form of wireless would be good from desk to bedroom but that would be right on top of my router and cordless phone, oh well hope the measurements help some what. Jim Wirless TV senders is the spawn of Satin, use cable, not cheap cable but "Satellite grade" CT100 or equiv. -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
Jim wrote:
[ Points in Charles' reply also noted. } OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the With only four flats, there is a significant risk that the installation has been done on the cheap. Do you have a copy of the lease. It may give some hints as to whether the leaseholder has to pay for power to a distribution amplifier, which I would expect to be present. same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a If modern practice is followed, there will be four separate cables, from the head end (not the aerial). Otherwise, the sockets need to be special ones, which have separate cable inputs and outputs. The worst case scenario is that the sockets have been simply wired in parallel. single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster If amplification is needed it really needs to be done before any of the splitting. Do any of the TV's have diagnostic modes which show signal strength. That may give a clue as to whether the signal is already marginal at the socket, and whether its strength degrades as you get further into the network. With cheap splitters, the system may behave differently with and without a set present, so you may not be able to get a measurement of the true situation at every set. http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. Without precise details of your location, and the distribution network behind it, I don't think the picture of the antenna will tell a lot (unless it is falling to pieces). If there is a problem in the distribution system, unless the whole block is social housing, or it is very new, it is unlikely that you will get the leaseholders to agree to fix it. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Jim, in the bit of your OP I have quoted above, you mention a Sky box. Does this mean you have your own satellite dish? I presume this is so because the distribution system doesn't carry satellite. If so, then there are other suggestions we could make that don't involve the aerial. -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
Jim wrote:
Guess some idea of coax length would have been handy, sorry about that. So from UHF socket to TV is 120 inches TV (in living room) to my desk where 10" TV is located is 260 inches. Desk to bedroom is 440 inches. With good quality cable (CT100) you will lose a little over half the signal power (~4dB) in the cable. Cheap, daisy chained, splitters will reduce the signal power by a further factor of, at least, 16. The Maplin 4 way F splitter will reduce it by a factor of about 9. Mark's 3dB, for a two way splitter, is a bit optimistic (hypothetical ideal splitter). The real device figures quoted by Maplin are about 4dB. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
Well firstly I'd test the basic signal from the provided socket with a
decent flylead and see if there are any issues on the gear which is now not providing the full set of channels. Brian -- From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active "Jim" wrote in message m... OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. TIA Jim |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
In article ,
David Woolley wrote: Jim wrote: Guess some idea of coax length would have been handy, sorry about that. So from UHF socket to TV is 120 inches TV (in living room) to my desk where 10" TV is located is 260 inches. Desk to bedroom is 440 inches. With good quality cable (CT100) you will lose a little over half the signal power (~4dB) in the cable. but "signal power" isn't relevant. Its signal voltage where -6dB is a half. 440 inches is around 11m, and with CT100 losing about 15dB per 100m at CP channels, I reckon the loss would be under 2dB. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
"David Woolley" wrote in message ... Jim wrote: Guess some idea of coax length would have been handy, sorry about that. So from UHF socket to TV is 120 inches TV (in living room) to my desk where 10" TV is located is 260 inches. Desk to bedroom is 440 inches. With good quality cable (CT100) you will lose a little over half the signal power (~4dB) in the cable. Cheap, daisy chained, splitters will reduce the signal power by a further factor of, at least, 16. The Maplin 4 way F splitter will reduce it by a factor of about 9. Mark's 3dB, for a two way splitter, is a bit optimistic (hypothetical ideal splitter). It was a theoretical figure - there will be insertion and coupling losses. The real device figures quoted by Maplin are about 4dB. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
"David WE Roberts" wrote in message ... "Jim" wrote in message m... OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg snip You need to distribute from the single socket you have, amplifing there and then running a seperate cable to each device. [Charles has already mentioned this.] Get a decent 4 port (or more if you expect to add more devices) powered amplifier/splitter and site it as close to the incoming socket as possible. Then he won't be able to watch DVD / PVR / $ky output in other rooms! Then run independant good quality co-ax leads to each device. That is how a simple distribution system is set up. Bill will probably recommend the best device for the amplifier/splitter. Cheers Dave R -- No plan survives contact with the enemy. [Not even bunny] Helmuth von Moltke the Elder (\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 18:19, Jim wrote:
So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. So it worked OK until the other day, and now it doesn't, and you haven't changed anything (yet)? Sounds to me as if the fault is outside your flat. Ask the neighbours if their TVs are working OK. Then follow the advice given elsewhere in this thread. Andy. -- p.s. It's means "It is" to anyone but a greengrocer ;) |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
charles wrote:
In article , David Woolley wrote: With good quality cable (CT100) you will lose a little over half the signal power (~4dB) in the cable. but "signal power" isn't relevant. Its signal voltage where -6dB is a half. 440 inches is around 11m, and with CT100 losing about 15dB per 100m at CP channels, I reckon the loss would be under 2dB. Signal power is proportional to the square of signal voltage, and the reason for the 20 in the dB calculation for voltage is that dB's are really power ratios. The 2 in the 20 represents the power of two. As I read the wiring topology, all three cables were effectively in series, which is how I got 4dB. 4dB, itself is plenty enough to get you from perfect digital reception to none at all. The only uncertainty in that relates to the shortest, 10 foot one. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 19:36, Graham. wrote:
the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Jim, in the bit of your OP I have quoted above, you mention a Sky box. Does this mean you have your own satellite dish? I presume this is so because the distribution system doesn't carry satellite. If so, then there are other suggestions we could make that don't involve the aerial. Sorry Graham, yes i do have a sky subscription (for my sins) but that will going in April and i have the dish set-up with a quad LNB and twin cable coming into living room that feeds Sky+HD box but will go into Humax Freesat box when Sky goes and another twin feed coming into bedroom to feed another freesat box when i get my hands on when, for some reason the sky bod installed it in bedroom (god knows why, cough, cough) I have no intention or desire to feed sky into bedroom, as i say i'll be getting rid in April, Anyone want to buy a Sky HD box? Jim |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 18:57, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
wrote in message m... OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. TIA Jim Well the main thing is that they should not be daisy chained. The sequence should be: - W aerial | V wall socket | TV amp [optional see text] | toys PVR, DVD, $ky box etc. | 4 way splitter | | | | TV TV TV TV The four way splitter should be a reactive one (e.g. from Maplin£10). If you do not want to view the output of your boxes elsewhere then put them after the splitter and in any event use HDMI, component or SCARTs to get the output into your main TV. Test each TV / box individually on the incoming UHF to see they will search correctly. If the divided signal is insufficient so they won't work after the splitter, buy a cheap UHF amp and insert it before any boxes. If you are replacing cable(s) use CT100 or similar and keep the runs short and the joins to an absolute minimum. As it happens the arrangement in my flat is similar. We are ~30km from Winter Hill. The feed from the aerial goes to a [landlord's] six way amp for the 6 flats and then in my flat the arrangement is as above without the optional amp. In the smaller block the landlord's splitter is passive. Works fine. If you are not using the analogue signal in you main TV, then you can use two two way splitters. One signal (-3dB) from the first can go to your weakest device (probably the Freeview HD TV) and the other to the splitter for the other two (-6dB) and no aerial goes into the main TV. How far are you from Crystal Palace? Well as the crow flies I'm 5.435 miles or 8.338 km away from the palace however my signal is being blocked to "some" degree by other flats, I'm 2nd floor and aerial is on a T&K bracket with about a 20 foot pole. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 19:02, David WE Roberts wrote:
You need to distribute from the single socket you have, amplifing there and then running a seperate cable to each device. [Charles has already mentioned this.] Told you i was dumb with this stuff all these years i had it set up wrong, Doh! Get a decent 4 port (or more if you expect to add more devices) powered amplifier/splitter and site it as close to the incoming socket as possible. Then run independant good quality co-ax leads to each device. That is how a simple distribution system is set up. Bill will probably recommend the best device for the amplifier/splitter. Cheers Dave R OK thanks Dave I'll wait for Bill to have his say and take it from there |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 20:55, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
Then he won't be able to watch DVD / PVR / $ky output in other room That's not a major problem to be honest, Bedroom has it's own DVD & freeview PVR and when the freesat PVR goes in the living room I'll be using a firmware hack that will allow me to broadcast wireless from that Freesat PVR to the bedroom as i have the dongle coming any day. Jim |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 19:09, David Woolley wrote:
With only four flats, there is a significant risk that the installation has been done on the cheap. Do you have a copy of the lease. It may give some hints as to whether the leaseholder has to pay for power to a distribution amplifier, which I would expect to be present. If modern practice is followed, there will be four separate cables, from the head end (not the aerial). Otherwise, the sockets need to be special ones, which have separate cable inputs and outputs. The worst case scenario is that the sockets have been simply wired in parallel. I may be able to gain access to the communal loft and take some images of the box where the 4 coax goes and feeds our flats, but it's a tiny hole and am not a tiny bloke and the last thing i fancy is getting the Mrs to dial 999 for the damm fire brigade to cut my fat arse out out a loft hatch, I'm sure some of us on here can relate to that especially just after crimbo If there is a problem in the distribution system, unless the whole block is social housing, or it is very new, it is unlikely that you will get the leaseholders to agree to fix it. It is all social housing and they are responsible for providing a TV signal to the flats, however i guess it's like BT and there liability stops at the socket, if TV's work from that point (and they do) then anything after that is down to me, hence why i skimped on coax before, but i will do my bit first and buy decent coax and any suggested hardware and if i still have issues then i'll call them in and see what they say but i suspect it will be down to me. Jim |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 18:37, charles wrote:
In [email protected] .com, wrote: OK I'll be upfront I know very little about this so please bear with me as I'm well out of my comfort zone here. I live in a small block of 4 flats and we all get our TV signal from the same external aerial and gets it's feed from Crystal Palace, the cable comes in the roof and is then feed to all four flats where we have a single UHF TV socket, something like this http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smapimg/en...ite-28245n.jpg What I want to be able to do is use that single socket and feed 3 other TV's in the following order (which I presume is the best way to do it) the socket is in the living room so I will of course run cable from the socket to the TV then I use a very cheap Argos splitter to split the signal so one goes to the TV (well sky or free-view box not too sure which one, but it ends up in the TV somehow). Then from that splitter I run some cheap White plastic coated coax to my desk which is in the kitchen (my flat is the kind where living room and kitchen dining room are all in one, so where dining table should be is my desk) on my desk I have one of those 10" Nikkai LCD TV's, then I wanted the TV signal fed into my bedroom which again is done right now via cheap white plastic coated coax, which then goes into an old labgear TV booster http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5...4ds1bqls4k.jpg which then goes into free-view box then TV. So that is how it's set up now but I'm sure something is wrong somewhere as I retuned my 10" the other day and it only found a few channels then when I set up Samsung in the bedroom it failed to find any HD channels (it's a Samsung UE32ES5500), now I'm presuming that the 10" and 32" were not able to find all channels due to poor signal, so I have come to the decision I need to look into a better way of rewiring the flat for TV signals. I don't know if I should just replace the coax with some decent stuff or look at some form of wireless distribution system, I don't have a fortune to spend maybe £50-£100. I have no access to the aerial itself of the distribution box the engineer has put in I can only work on things from "within" my flat, I know 2.4Ghz is busy to say the least I have cordless Panasonic phones x 3 plus, cordless headphones but these are only on 860 odd Mhz and an old O2 wireless router v4. I will post a picture of the TV antenna itself on Monday, just in case that makes any difference, any and all advice is welcome. There could be a number of problems, so it's not going to be easy to give an instant answer. However, i suspect that your second amplifier (old labgear TV booster) might be one of them. I don't see the need for it, and it might well be overloading. First: take each tv set in turn to the incoming socket and feed it directly - then tune it. Then try each set simply via the lenght of cable you've already got in place. Does it work then? That will eliminate the cable. If you get problems, yes, replace the cable with some decent stuff. You don't mention the lengths, but I can't imagine the runs being very long. You'd be better off getting a 4 outlet amplifier rather than having one following another. I only have a single booster which is in the bedroom before it goes in the TV, which i now know is in the wrong place. OK the main TV in the living room is fine as the feed is only some 8 feet from socket, i took the 10" and 32" the the UHF socket and tuned them in there and got all my channels including the HD ones on the Samsung, then put them back in the normal place (desk and bedroom) and desk TV will only pick up a few channels (ITV3 stuff like that) but not much else and TV in bedroom gets no HD feed whatsoever, so I presume we can work on the basis of my cabling has died and I need to buy some new coax. I guess what i need to do is find a place to get the CT100 and the various plugs, i'm guessing so long as i don't buy the cheapest plugs then just middle of the road stuff will do or should i be looking out for a certain brand to buy? Jim |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
Jim wrote:
It is all social housing and they are responsible for providing a TV signal to the flats, however i guess it's like BT and there liability You are right that the responsibility stops there. The advantage of social housing is that they do actually carry out repairs, usually relatively promptly, and they will have experience with dealing with contractors. In a privately owned, particularly self managed, environment, and particularly where it has gone to buy to let, it may be too difficult to get the management to spend anything on TV distribution. As it happens, it looks like there is an adequate signal at the wall plate, but just not enough margin to cope with 16 to 20 dB of additional attenuation (assuming resistive splitters). stops at the socket, if TV's work from that point (and they do) then anything after that is down to me, hence why i skimped on coax before, but i will do my bit first and buy decent coax and any suggested hardware and if i still have issues then i'll call them in and see what they say but i suspect it will be down to me. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
David Woolley wrote:
As it happens, it looks like there is an adequate signal at the wall plate, but just not enough margin to cope with 16 to 20 dB of additional attenuation (assuming resistive splitters). The OP mentioned that the signal from the tx is obscured by buildings, and that the aerial is on a twenty foot mast. That suggests that the signal quality (as opposed to quantity) might not be too good. The relevance of this is that (supposing that the signal levels delivered by the outlet are high) as they fall due to the horrendous daisychain within the flat, the level at which reception problems will arise will be higher than it would otherwise be, because if the signal is already corrupt, as the signal starts having to compete with the receiver's noise reception will suffer at a higher level. In other words, a really clean signal will provide good reception at a lower level than a corrupt one. It is also likely that in a screened location there will be signal level variations within the muxes. There might even be deep notches. These things will vary unpredictably with time, and it is quite possible that something that has happened some distance away has, (in a straw breaking a camel's back way) caused the recent reception problems. The ability of a receiver to tolerate a notch within a mux depends partly on the general signal level. As levels drop a larger and larger portion of the mux has an unusable s/n ratio. You can imagine how the daisychain in the flat can affect this. Talking of notches, there seems to be plenty of scope within the flat for mismatches and reflected signals. Going back to the signal delivered by the distribution system, it sounds as if there will be some sort of amplification. Since the system pre-dates DSO there is probably excessive gain. The signal overload at the amp (and possibly at equipment within the flat) will degrade BER; each successive stage degrading it a little more. It is a strange paradox, but the OP is probably suffering simultaneously from too much and too little signal! As a general point, I feel that it is foolish to attempt a diagnosis in this case by remote control. The list of possible faults is far too long, and they will be interacting of course. When I drive towards a job that has been described as being something similar to this one, I sometimes amuse myself by hypothesising about the likely outcome. I'm usually wrong, in the event. The only good advice is that which has already been given: rip it all out and start again! And even then the quality and quantity of the incoming signal remains unknown, so there still might be problems. The fact is, after five minutes on site with an analyser, any half decent installer would be drinking the tea. For that reason a long-drawn out dialogue containing endless suggestions and hypotheses seems utterly pointless to me; in fact it makes me tired just reading it. Sorry, but that's how it seems to me. Bill |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 19:08, Graham. wrote:
Wirless TV senders is the spawn of Satin, use cable, not cheap cable but "Satellite grade" CT100 or equiv. Bill's article on cable is worth a read. http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/article...-quality.shtml Also ensure any splitters are fully screened http://www.admac.myzen.co.uk/Splitter/ -- mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
Bill Wright wrote:
It is also likely that in a screened location there will be signal level variations within the muxes. There might even be deep notches. These things will vary unpredictably with time, and it is quite possible that I can certainly appreciate that, as we have that problem. It's one of the main reasons why I said that the exact location would be needed. Unfortunately we are in the privately owned, gone to buy to let, situation, not the social landlord one, so, especially as the decision makers are non-resident, or cable users, no-one is willing to spend anything to investigate the problem properly. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
"Jim" wrote in message ... On 30/12/2012 18:57, R. Mark Clayton wrote: How far are you from Crystal Palace? Well as the crow flies* I'm 5.435 miles or 8.338 km away from the palace however my signal is being blocked to "some" degree by other flats, I'm 2nd floor and aerial is on a T&K bracket with about a 20 foot pole. There should be loads of signal* and, assuming that the aerial has more than one element , no need for amplification in the landlord's demise. You probably won't need it in yours unless the landlord's split is rubbish. You have 200kW at ~8km whereas I have 100kW at 30km, so you have 30 times more signal or nearly +15dB before you start. You also have channels at the bottom of the band, which means less loss in your cable runs. * TV signals don't usually go any other way unless you have multi-path reflections. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
Well as the crow flies* I'm 5.435 miles or 8.338 km away from the palace however my signal is being blocked to "some" degree by other flats, I'm 2nd floor and aerial is on a T&K bracket with about a 20 foot pole. There should be loads of signal* and, assuming that the aerial has more than one element , no need for amplification in the landlord's demise. You probably won't need it in yours unless the landlord's split is rubbish. Unfortunately, these systems are often installed to a formula, and the formula includes an amplifier, whether needed or not. Many times I've seen a 20dB amp with two 12db attenuators in front of it! Especially as we have now had DSO it is becoming routine to remove amplifiers from the very small systems. Bill |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
R. Mark Clayton wrote:
There should be loads of signal* and, assuming that the aerial has more than one element , no need for amplification in the landlord's demise. You probably won't need it in yours unless the landlord's split is rubbish. A landlord should use a system with more isolation between outlets than is required within a single residence. That is typically done by using taps with upwards of 10dB attenuation. You have 200kW at ~8km whereas I have 100kW at 30km, so you have 30 times more signal or nearly +15dB before you start. You also have channels at the bottom of the band, which means less loss in your cable runs. He also does not have line of site on the transmitter. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
David Woolley wrote:
R. Mark Clayton wrote: There should be loads of signal* and, assuming that the aerial has more than one element , no need for amplification in the landlord's demise. You probably won't need it in yours unless the landlord's split is rubbish. A landlord should use a system with more isolation between outlets than is required within a single residence. That is typically done by using taps with upwards of 10dB attenuation. In practice nowadays it is quite usual to use four-way splitters to provide four feeds. These might or might not be fed from a tap-off line via low value taps (eg a 12dB tap feeding a four way split = four 20dB taps). All very old fashioned nowadays of course. New terrestrial-only systems are very rare. Bill |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
In article , David Woolley
wrote: R. Mark Clayton wrote: There should be loads of signal* and, assuming that the aerial has more than one element , no need for amplification in the landlord's demise. You probably won't need it in yours unless the landlord's split is rubbish. A landlord should use a system with more isolation between outlets than is required within a single residence. That is typically done by using taps with upwards of 10dB attenuation. You have 200kW at ~8km whereas I have 100kW at 30km, so you have 30 times more signal or nearly +15dB before you start. You also have channels at the bottom of the band, which means less loss in your cable runs. He also does not have line of site on the transmitter. in the mid 70s, I was involved with the BBC stand at IBC in Grosvenor House, Park Lane; about 11km from CP. To get signal to the basement from the roof top 8 stories up needed a full 100m drum of coax. Even so, 20dB of attenuation was needed to bring the signal down to a useable level. There's lots of signal up there, -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
In article , says...
In practice nowadays it is quite usual to use four-way splitters to provide four feeds. These might or might not be fed from a tap-off line via low value taps (eg a 12dB tap feeding a four way split = four 20dB taps). All very old fashioned nowadays of course. New terrestrial-only systems are very rare. Not as rare as the one I've just designed - it only has three channels and they are Channels B1, B9 and E33 ...! https://www.dropbox.com/s/u3ugihyq7kjf0hu/Dulwich_% 20New_Headend_V1.1.png or http://tinyurl.com/new-headend The RF design is he https://www.dropbox.com/s/ba52mnd210...Draft_V2.0.png the 'shed' is ~10m x 8m and there is a possibility of expansion to double that size! The minimum output at any outlet is 2mV as most of the 'residents' are very old and tend to be rather 'deaf' ... You will also note that they tend to gather together in large groups ... -- Terry |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 30/12/2012 18:57, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
Snip Well the main thing is that they should not be daisy chained. The sequence should be: - W aerial | V wall socket | TV amp [optional see text] | toys PVR, DVD, $ky box etc. | 4 way splitter | | | | TV TV TV TV The four way splitter should be a reactive one (e.g. from Maplin£10). If you do not want to view the output of your boxes elsewhere then put them after the splitter and in any event use HDMI, component or SCARTs to get the output into your main TV. Test each TV / box individually on the incoming UHF to see they will search correctly. If the divided signal is insufficient so they won't work after the splitter, buy a cheap UHF amp and insert it before any boxes. If you are replacing cable(s) use CT100 or similar and keep the runs short and the joins to an absolute minimum. As it happens the arrangement in my flat is similar. We are ~30km from Winter Hill. The feed from the aerial goes to a [landlord's] six way amp for the 6 flats and then in my flat the arrangement is as above without the optional amp. In the smaller block the landlord's splitter is passive. Works fine. If you are not using the analogue signal in you main TV, then you can use two two way splitters. One signal (-3dB) from the first can go to your weakest device (probably the Freeview HD TV) and the other to the splitter for the other two (-6dB) and no aerial goes into the main TV. How far are you from Crystal Palace? Hi sorry to bug you again but can I just make sure I understand this right before I go ahead and start buying stuff. I have no interest in feeding Sky or anything into other rooms it's just getting best TV signal to each TV point (living room, desk and bedroom TV's), I will be buying CT100 coax of some form having looked at your site it would seem the Type B would be best for me as it may well get bent to some degree (another problem I have some is at 90 degree angle but I won't be doing that again). I have looked at Maplins and they don't seem to offer 4 way UHF splitters for normal coax plugs (only F type) however I was wondering given my living room TV is only a few feet away from the socket would it be best to put a 2 way slitter in place first (which i can get from maplins here http://www.maplin.co.uk/uhf-tv-signal-splitter-955) run one lenth of coax to the main TV (non amplified as i'm worried about overloading the TV) then my old amplifier boosting signal to desk TV and bedroom TV or is my old booster just fit for the bin now? Also any links/advice you can give me on where to buy the kit and looking at your site it could well be a minefield out there. |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
Jim wrote:
I have looked at Maplins and they don't seem to offer 4 way UHF splitters for normal coax plugs (only F type) So use 'F' plugs on the splitter end of the cables, they're dead easy to use, keep a Belling Lee on the equipment ends. Instead of £1.99 each from Maplin, they're £1.84 for 10 at Toolstation, the 4-way splitter's half the price too http://toolstation.com/shop/x/x/x/d190/sd3084/p16238 http://toolstation.com/shop/x/x/x/d190/sd3084/p38324 |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
On 01/01/2013 19:57, Jim wrote:
I have looked at Maplins and they don't seem to offer 4 way UHF splitters for normal coax plugs (only F type) http://www.satcure.com/tech/fconn.htm http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/F-Socket-Adaptor-to-Male-Female-Coax-Adaptors-F-plug-/350107455031?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Other&hash=item518 407ce37 http://tinyurl.com/avqkjaf -- mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
Andy Burns wrote:
Jim wrote: I have looked at Maplins and they don't seem to offer 4 way UHF splitters for normal coax plugs (only F type) So use 'F' plugs on the splitter end of the cables, they're dead easy to use, keep a Belling Lee on the equipment ends. Instead of £1.99 each from Maplin, they're £1.84 for 10 at Toolstation, the 4-way splitter's half the price too http://toolstation.com/shop/x/x/x/d190/sd3084/p16238 http://toolstation.com/shop/x/x/x/d190/sd3084/p38324 Or CPC on line. http://cpc.farnell.com/_/344004/spli...mhz/dp/AP01023 Definitely use 'f' connector splitters. Much better. Bill |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
alan wrote:
On 01/01/2013 19:57, Jim wrote: I have looked at Maplins and they don't seem to offer 4 way UHF splitters for normal coax plugs (only F type) ******** to Maplins. Ridiculous prices. Bill |
Very basic cabling/distribution advice needed please
Bill Wright wrote:
alan wrote: On 01/01/2013 19:57, Jim wrote: I have looked at Maplins and they don't seem to offer 4 way UHF splitters for normal coax plugs (only F type) ******** to Maplins. Ridiculous prices. Bill and ridiculously few product lines Better off with RS http://uk.rs-online.com/web/ or CPC http://cpc.farnell.com/ or even eBay Steve Terry -- Get a free GiffGaff PAYG Sim and £5 bonus after activation at: http://giffgaff.com/orders/affiliate/gfourwwk |
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