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Sony HDTV over the air tuner and Obsolescence?
I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in
receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? |
CGott wrote:
I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? No one should buy any HDTV set or seperate OTA receiver unless it has the new 5th generation receiver technology in it and can handle MPEG4 and WM9. A USDTV receiver will go on sale in a couple of months problably at WalMart which will handle WM9. IF that unit happens to work for you receive wise fine but anything that does not handle advanced codecs are a crap shoot from here on out. If USDTV and/or Emmis is/are successful any current receiver or one sold in the past will rapidly become obsolete. Unless you like receiveing only a limited number of SD programs on your HDTV receiver. |
That connection has nothing to do with OTA signals. Nor does it have
anything to do with scrambling. It is there for copy protection for Hollywood which is afraid you're going to copy their movies. "CGott" wrote in message om... I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? |
If you believe Bob Miller's advice, then you also believe in the repayment
of the French war debt and that Bill Clinton didn't have sex with that woman. Anything that Bob Miller says is guaranteed to be a combination of half-truths, lies, and FUD. On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote: No one should buy any HDTV set or seperate OTA receiver unless it has the new 5th generation receiver technology in it and can handle MPEG4 and WM9. A USDTV receiver will go on sale in a couple of months problably at WalMart which will handle WM9. IF that unit happens to work for you receive wise fine but anything that does not handle advanced codecs are a crap shoot from here on out. If USDTV and/or Emmis is/are successful any current receiver or one sold in the past will rapidly become obsolete. Unless you like receiveing only a limited number of SD programs on your HDTV receiver. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, CGott wrote:
I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? Assuming that you intend to use an STB (set top box, that is a separate HDTV tuner) you are fine. The TV probably has both component and DVI, DVI being slightly preferable. If you can wait a short while until the FCC mandate kicks in, you'll find TVs with a built-in HDTV tuner showing up on the market for much less (and the TVs without the tuner being dumped at fire-sale prices). "Broadcasters scrambling their signals" is a problem that only exists in Bob Miller's fantasies. There is something about copy-restriction, but that's only going to affect digital copying, and the final jury isn't out on that. If you have a TV with an HDTV tuner, you'll be able to watch your favorite network prime time shows in HDTV for free. That's not going away. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Mark Crispin wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, CGott wrote: I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? Assuming that you intend to use an STB (set top box, that is a separate HDTV tuner) you are fine. The TV probably has both component and DVI, DVI being slightly preferable. If you can wait a short while until the FCC mandate kicks in, you'll find TVs with a built-in HDTV tuner showing up on the market for much less (and the TVs without the tuner being dumped at fire-sale prices). "Broadcasters scrambling their signals" is a problem that only exists in Bob Miller's fantasies. There is something about copy-restriction, but that's only going to affect digital copying, and the final jury isn't out on that. If you have a TV with an HDTV tuner, you'll be able to watch your favorite network prime time shows in HDTV for free. That's not going away. -- Mark -- Your first worry is not about broadcasters scrambling their signals which they would do if they offer a subscription service. Your first worry is that broadcasters will segment their signal. That is they will satisfy the requirement of the FCC that they broadcast AT LEAST ONE NTSC PROGRAM WITH MPEG2 IN THE FREE AND CLEAR and they they will use the rest of their bandwidth to deliver more programming using a codec such as WM9, MPEG4 or VP6 which is 2 to 3 times more efficient. This programming could be free, part free or all subscription but even if it is ALL FREE, that is NO SCRAMBLING, your current 8-VSB OTA receiver will still NOT RECEIVE ANYTHING BUT THE NTSC QUALITY PROGRAM. NTSC=SD. Mark can say this will not happen but he is doing you no favor. He is intent on you taking the risk. He does not want you to have all the information that you need to make a purchase decision. If he did he would tell you himself that what I say will happen IS ALREADY HAPPENING. USDTV is selling receivers in WalMart for $200. IN a couple of months they will start selling receivers that do both MPEG2 and MPEG4. Where ever they operate they make deals with broadcasters to use some stations to do exactly what I suggest above. Except that they have no plans that I know of to do any HD in their MPEG4 bandwidth. Broadcasters have invested in USDTV. Emmis Broadcasting encouraged by USDTV has gone a step furthur. They have formed an organization of broadcasters to do the same thing but on steroids. Emmis has already signed up over 400 stations out of the total of 1600. That after only a few months. They expect ALL broadcasters to join. They talk of buying USDTV. Hey a few hundred $ for a receiver that works now and may work for some time before what I suggest happens (or it may not happen) is no big deal. Buy it but don't say you have not been warned. The FCC won't tell you, broadcasters won't tell you, the manufacturers of 8-VSB receivers won't tell you that current receivers may become obsolete IN MANY POSSIBLE ways. And then there are those who think that they are promoting HDTV by ignoring reality, by denying the risk, because they work for one of the above entities. And then there are potentially those who would consciously deceive new or would be new HD buyers about the risk because they want as many as possible in the same boat with them. The more in the less chance it will sink seems to be the reasoning. Good reasoning if the numbers in the boat were actually very high. They are not and the powers that be will ignore them as this change occurs. I would not buy an 8-VSB receiver until they have 5th generation Zenith capability and can handle advanced codecs like MPEG4, WM9 or VP6. The capabilities of the 5th generation receivers were promised in 1999. Actually much more was promised or more correctly they said that they had the capability of mobile and indoor ease of reception in 1999. The only reason I believe that 5th generation receivers are better is because of trusted friends who have tested them and told me. No mobile however. |
Do not believe anything Bob says. If he had his way nobody would be watching excellent HDTV broadcasts at all. Bob Miller wrote: CGott wrote: I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? No one should buy any HDTV set or seperate OTA receiver unless it has the new 5th generation receiver technology in it and can handle MPEG4 and WM9. A USDTV receiver will go on sale in a couple of months problably at WalMart which will handle WM9. IF that unit happens to work for you receive wise fine but anything that does not handle advanced codecs are a crap shoot from here on out. If USDTV and/or Emmis is/are successful any current receiver or one sold in the past will rapidly become obsolete. Unless you like receiveing only a limited number of SD programs on your HDTV receiver. |
CGott wrote: I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? I use a Sony 34HS510 HDTV today for both OTA component and Cable Box (SA3250HD) DVI HD programs... Both work swell!! As far as OTA HD Broadcasters scrambling... No way...... and yes, I do fear Cable 'new' Scrambling with my DVI.... but I will cross that bridge when &... IF DVI 'goes bad'... I enjoy HDTV today... and that's counts..... The movie industry may not be my friend? |
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 03:11:54 GMT, Bob Miller wrote:
No one should buy any HDTV set or seperate OTA receiver unless it has the new 5th generation receiver technology in it and can handle MPEG4 and WM9. A USDTV receiver will go on sale in a couple of months problably at WalMart which will handle WM9. IF that unit happens to work for you receive wise fine but anything that does not handle advanced codecs are a crap shoot from here on out. If USDTV and/or Emmis is/are successful any current receiver or one sold in the past will rapidly become obsolete. Unless you like receiveing only a limited number of SD programs on your HDTV receiver. Bob! You're still wasting your valuable time posting here when the conversion to COFDM is so important that's there's no time to waste you don't have a minute to spare. Spend your time convincing Congress and the FCC they need to convert, not out here talking to us who can't do anything about it. Until the government mandate is changed from 8VSB to COFDM I don't expect to see you out here. ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
Michael J. Sherman wrote:
Do not believe anything Bob says. If he had his way nobody would be watching excellent HDTV broadcasts at all. Don't have to beleive me call up Emmis 317.266.0100 or USDTV 801-748-2464 Emmis, Partners eye buying USDTV http://www.tvweek.com/news/web060304.html#emmis USDTV Moving to WM9 http://www.uprez.com/modules.php?op=...tid= &topic=9 NAB: USDTV Chooses Windows Media 9 for Pay-TV http://digital-lifestyles.info/displ...siness&id=1147 With lawmakers closing in on the analog broadcast spectrum like a pack of hungry dogs on a bone, broadcasters are gravitating toward the over-the-air, multichannel pay service proposed by Emmis Chairman Jeff Smulyan at NAB2004. http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=2040 Bob Miller wrote: CGott wrote: I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? No one should buy any HDTV set or seperate OTA receiver unless it has the new 5th generation receiver technology in it and can handle MPEG4 and WM9. A USDTV receiver will go on sale in a couple of months problably at WalMart which will handle WM9. IF that unit happens to work for you receive wise fine but anything that does not handle advanced codecs are a crap shoot from here on out. If USDTV and/or Emmis is/are successful any current receiver or one sold in the past will rapidly become obsolete. Unless you like receiveing only a limited number of SD programs on your HDTV receiver. |
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
The FCC won't tell you, broadcasters won't tell you, the manufacturers of 8-VSB receivers won't tell you that current receivers may become obsolete IN MANY POSSIBLE ways. And then there are those who think that they are promoting HDTV by ignoring reality, by denying the risk, because they work for one of the above entities. Doesn't it get hot wearing your tin-foil hat all the time? -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
So what? Its a pay alternative to Cable or Sat with limited selections.
Are you infereing that I don't go this route I won't be able to watch ABC/ABC HD on cable? Highly unlikely ... This is just an alternative to cable or sat ... hopefully this type of packaging and competition will lead to ala carte pricing/selection on cable. "Bob Miller" wrote in message k.net... Michael J. Sherman wrote: Do not believe anything Bob says. If he had his way nobody would be watching excellent HDTV broadcasts at all. Don't have to beleive me call up Emmis 317.266.0100 or USDTV 801-748-2464 Emmis, Partners eye buying USDTV http://www.tvweek.com/news/web060304.html#emmis USDTV Moving to WM9 http://www.uprez.com/modules.php?op=...tid= &topic=9 NAB: USDTV Chooses Windows Media 9 for Pay-TV http://digital-lifestyles.info/displ...siness&id=1147 With lawmakers closing in on the analog broadcast spectrum like a pack of hungry dogs on a bone, broadcasters are gravitating toward the over-the-air, multichannel pay service proposed by Emmis Chairman Jeff Smulyan at NAB2004. http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=2040 Bob Miller wrote: CGott wrote: I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? No one should buy any HDTV set or seperate OTA receiver unless it has the new 5th generation receiver technology in it and can handle MPEG4 and WM9. A USDTV receiver will go on sale in a couple of months problably at WalMart which will handle WM9. IF that unit happens to work for you receive wise fine but anything that does not handle advanced codecs are a crap shoot from here on out. If USDTV and/or Emmis is/are successful any current receiver or one sold in the past will rapidly become obsolete. Unless you like receiveing only a limited number of SD programs on your HDTV receiver. |
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
USDTV is selling receivers in WalMart for $200. In case you haven't discovered, those receivers do HD; and their big selling point at Wal-Mart is free HD. USDTV's pay SD programming is an attempt to get viewers, no longer needing the cable company to give them their local channels, to fire the cable company entirely. It's a clever idea. Whether it's successful remains to be seen. The important thing is that USDTV's entire business model depends upon the widespread availability of free HD OTA. It is not in USDTV's interest to see HD OTA go away in the way that BOB alleges. If that were to happen, USDTV's entire selling point over cable goes away. Emmis Broadcasting encouraged by USDTV has gone a step furthur. All of the above also applies to Emmis. Without widespread and free HD OTA, the business model collapses. Cable and satellite will kill them. Everywhere in the world (yes, even with BOB's precious COFDM) OTA requires more consumer level maintenance of reception capability than cable or satellite. There is a very real cost to this. Cable and satellite both offer "install it and forget about it", and consumers will pay a premium for that. In order to undercut cable and satellite, USDTV/Emmis must not only be cheaper, but offer a benefit not found on cable and satellite. That benefit is free HD. The key is that HD is free *both* to the consumer *and* to USDTV. It's a clever means of bottom-feeding. Let the broadcasters give away the HD content; and on the cheap provide CNN, Fox News, Cartoon Network, USA Network, and the other popular SD channel while undercutting the cable company. But, like all bottom-feeders, it depends upon the food chain higher up. The more free HD is available to all, the more crumbs that come down for USDTV to gobble. Thus, BOB's attempts at spreading anti-HD FUD attack USDTV too. Which, if you think about it, makes sense. USDTV represents a competitor for the bandwidth that BOB wants to use to put tampon advertisements on city buses. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
Gomer Jones wrote:
So what? Its a pay alternative to Cable or Sat with limited selections. Are you infereing that I don't go this route I won't be able to watch ABC/ABC HD on cable? Highly unlikely ... This is just an alternative to cable or sat ... hopefully this type of packaging and competition will lead to ala carte pricing/selection on cable. Right an alternative to cable and satellite using OTA broadcast spectum, possible a pay service. And it could, I think will, lead to ala carte pricing and selection on cable and satellite. As in Europe the rebirth of OTA broadcasting is putting pressure on cable and satellite. Only two years after beginning FREEVIEW in the UK has already caused SKY Satellite to offer 200 free channels. My ONLY problem is with the US modulation 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting. And while I still think it is a travesty and political hack job visited on the US public, I do think that the new OTA 5th generation receievers could make Emmis or USDTV viable. In fact there are other VIABLE possibilities in the offing that are even bigger than Emmis or USCTV that become viable with the 5th gen receivers. IMO cable and satellite will see far more competition from new OTA offering both 8-VSB and COFDM in the next few years than ANYTHING that is now happening in Europe. "Bob Miller" wrote in message k.net... Michael J. Sherman wrote: Do not believe anything Bob says. If he had his way nobody would be watching excellent HDTV broadcasts at all. Don't have to beleive me call up Emmis 317.266.0100 or USDTV 801-748-2464 Emmis, Partners eye buying USDTV http://www.tvweek.com/news/web060304.html#emmis USDTV Moving to WM9 http://www.uprez.com/modules.php?op=...tid= &topic=9 NAB: USDTV Chooses Windows Media 9 for Pay-TV http://digital-lifestyles.info/displ...siness&id=1147 With lawmakers closing in on the analog broadcast spectrum like a pack of hungry dogs on a bone, broadcasters are gravitating toward the over-the-air, multichannel pay service proposed by Emmis Chairman Jeff Smulyan at NAB2004. http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=2040 Bob Miller wrote: CGott wrote: I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? No one should buy any HDTV set or seperate OTA receiver unless it has the new 5th generation receiver technology in it and can handle MPEG4 and WM9. A USDTV receiver will go on sale in a couple of months problably at WalMart which will handle WM9. IF that unit happens to work for you receive wise fine but anything that does not handle advanced codecs are a crap shoot from here on out. If USDTV and/or Emmis is/are successful any current receiver or one sold in the past will rapidly become obsolete. Unless you like receiveing only a limited number of SD programs on your HDTV receiver. |
"Bob Miller" wrote in message k.net... Gomer Jones wrote: So what? Its a pay alternative to Cable or Sat with limited selections. Are you infereing that I don't go this route I won't be able to watch ABC/ABC HD on cable? Highly unlikely ... This is just an alternative to cable or sat ... hopefully this type of packaging and competition will lead to ala carte pricing/selection on cable. Right an alternative to cable and satellite using OTA broadcast spectum, possible a pay service. And it could, I think will, lead to ala carte pricing and selection on cable and satellite. So the Emmis / USDTV model is good, more competition means progressively better service and lowered prices (in terms of relative dollars). So here we are back to the root of your issue modulation, as you state later. As in Europe the rebirth of OTA broadcasting is putting pressure on cable and satellite. Only two years after beginning FREEVIEW in the UK has already caused SKY Satellite to offer 200 free channels. My ONLY problem is with the US modulation 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting. Well isn't the battle over with, with Sinclairs endorsement, the OEMs adopting integrated receivers, maybe your business model would be better suited by jumping on the E-VSB bandwagon And while I still think it is a travesty and political hack job visited on the US public, I do think that the new OTA 5th generation receievers could make Emmis or USDTV viable. In fact there are other VIABLE possibilities in the offing that are even bigger than Emmis or USCTV that become viable with the 5th gen receivers. IMO cable and satellite will see far more competition from new OTA offering both 8-VSB and COFDM in the next few years than ANYTHING that is now happening in Europe. So we will let the market decide. |
Mark Crispin wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote: USDTV is selling receivers in WalMart for $200. In case you haven't discovered, those receivers do HD; and their big selling point at Wal-Mart is free HD. USDTV's pay SD programming is an attempt to get viewers, no longer needing the cable company to give them their local channels, to fire the cable company entirely. Yes they do HDTV in MPEG2 and the new receivers that USDTV will market in August will do HDTV in MPEG4. The MPEG2 HDTV is free OTA DTV but the MPEG4 can be free or subscription based. As USDTV or Emmis bring all broadcasters on board the only programming left on MPEG2 will be ONE SD program. It's a clever idea. Whether it's successful remains to be seen. The important thing is that USDTV's entire business model depends upon the widespread availability of free HD OTA. I don't think so. The more successful they are the less they depend on the MPEG2 SD part of the broadcast. They can deliver HD free or via subscription on the MPEG4 side. It is not in USDTV's interest to see HD OTA go away in the way that BOB alleges. If that were to happen, USDTV's entire selling point over cable goes away. The more spectrum that USDTV can capture and use in any market with the 2 to 3 times more efficeint WM9 codec the more they can compete with cable. USDTV's entire selling point is the amount of HD, ED, SD and data they can deliver in MPEG4. Whatever is being broadcast to satisfy the FCC MPEG2 SD requirement is totally inconsequential. Emmis Broadcasting encouraged by USDTV has gone a step furthur. All of the above also applies to Emmis. Without widespread and free HD OTA, the business model collapses. Cable and satellite will kill them. They could kill cable and satellite. IF they had 20 broadcast channels in a market like NYC they can deliver at least 10 SD or 3 HD programs with MPEG4 in the spectrum not used by the ONE SD MPEG2 SD program. That would total 200 SD or 60 HD channels or some mix of the two. With PVR capability in the receiver they can more than compete with cable and satellite. Everywhere in the world (yes, even with BOB's precious COFDM) OTA requires more consumer level maintenance of reception capability than cable or satellite. There is a very real cost to this. Cable and satellite both offer "install it and forget about it", and consumers will pay a premium for that. Well while this is true with current 8-VSB receivers it is EMPHATICALLY NOT TRUE of COFDM and hopefully not true of 5th generation 8-VSB receivers. COFDM and we beleive 5th gen 8-VSB offers a MUCH lower maintenance cost than cable or satellite. Install it and forget it is what COFDM is all about. Satellite is more like install it and pray that is doesn't rain and cable as I have experienced it is more call they and stay on hold for most of the day for problems that occur all to regularly. In order to undercut cable and satellite, USDTV/Emmis must not only be cheaper, but offer a benefit not found on cable and satellite. That benefit is free HD. The key is that HD is free *both* to the consumer *and* to USDTV. At first USDTV must be cheaper and it can be. Its plant cost far less and maintenance is minor compared to cable. Its benefits can include no lost signal due to rain ala satellite, free programming including HD delivered on the MPEG4 side, higher bit rate SD or even ED programming and lower cost. Down the road a bit OTA does not have to be cheaper. At the same price I believe OTA wins out. It's a clever means of bottom-feeding. Let the broadcasters give away the HD content; and on the cheap provide CNN, Fox News, Cartoon Network, USA Network, and the other popular SD channel while undercutting the cable company. But, like all bottom-feeders, it depends upon the food chain higher up. The more free HD is available to all, the more crumbs that come down for USDTV to gobble. Thus, BOB's attempts at spreading anti-HD FUD attack USDTV too. Which, if you think about it, makes sense. USDTV represents a competitor for the bandwidth that BOB wants to use to put tampon advertisements on city buses. No the USDTV model carried to its logical end is not a bottom feeder it is the rebirth of OTA and the end of cable and satellite in any form that we now recognize them in if they exist at all. Bob Miller -- Mark -- |
Gomer Jones wrote:
Right an alternative to cable and satellite using OTA broadcast spectum, possible a pay service. And it could, I think will, lead to ala carte pricing and selection on cable and satellite. So the Emmis / USDTV model is good, more competition means progressively better service and lowered prices (in terms of relative dollars). So here we are back to the root of your issue modulation, as you state later. As in Europe the rebirth of OTA broadcasting is putting pressure on cable and satellite. Only two years after beginning FREEVIEW in the UK has already caused SKY Satellite to offer 200 free channels. My ONLY problem is with the US modulation 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting. Well isn't the battle over with, with Sinclairs endorsement, the OEMs adopting integrated receivers, maybe your business model would be better suited by jumping on the E-VSB bandwagon If the battle is over we won. Hard to understand with my arguments here but my BUSINESS MODEL REQUIRES that broadcasters are STUCK with a non mobile 8-VSB while we can use COFDM on other spectrum for mobile services. The better 5th generation 8-VSB receivers so LOCK IN 8-VSB that this is a great day. Understand that if current broadcasters could offer a mobile receiver why would anyone want to compete with them? Why would anyone start a new business using spectrum they had to pay for to compete with broadcasters who got their spectrum for free and have most of the content? It would be crazy. If they cannot compete then that is a different story. They can't do mobile with 8-VSB or if they try I would love to compete with them using COFDM. And while I still think it is a travesty and political hack job visited on the US public, I do think that the new OTA 5th generation receievers could make Emmis or USDTV viable. In fact there are other VIABLE possibilities in the offing that are even bigger than Emmis or USCTV that become viable with the 5th gen receivers. IMO cable and satellite will see far more competition from new OTA offering both 8-VSB and COFDM in the next few years than ANYTHING that is now happening in Europe. So we will let the market decide. If only we could let the market decide. As it is many decisions that should be market driven are decided by who has the most money politically in DC. And at the moment this is more true in the US than in many other countries. We try to export our morality and have laws against our companies taking or giving bribes overseas for business purposes while here at home our government is more and more run by outright bribery that is reported to us on TV every night and we accept it. Just listen to responses right here to the affect "they picked a modulation already so nothing can ever be done about it". YOu don't hear that in S. Korea where broadcasters refuse to go on the air with 8-VSB 6 years after is was chosen. The British tried to put a tax, the first tax of any kind, on the American Colonialist. These were loyal British subjects. The tax was 4% on a tea most favored by the colonist. The British sent a ship loaded with this tea at half price into Boston Harbor. A steal, a bargain and the Bostonian's threw it into the sea and then killed 300 or so of the soldiers who came to restore order. No such bloodshed today we would say "what are you going to do, nothing can be done" and then drink the tea. |
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
It's a clever idea. Whether it's successful remains to be seen. The important thing is that USDTV's entire business model depends upon the widespread availability of free HD OTA. I don't think so. The more successful they are the less they depend on the MPEG2 SD part of the broadcast. They can deliver HD free or via subscription on the MPEG4 side. Why, pray tell, would they want to do that when the broadcasters do it for free? The very last thing in the world that they would want to do is increase their costs and diminish their primary benefit. Everything depends upon them being able to compete with cable and satellite while *not* having to do what cable and satellite do. You have no sense of the market. No wonder your business failed. The more spectrum that USDTV can capture and use in any market with the 2 to 3 times more efficeint WM9 codec the more they can compete with cable. USDTV's entire selling point is the amount of HD, ED, SD and data they can deliver in MPEG4. Whatever is being broadcast to satisfy the FCC MPEG2 SD requirement is totally inconsequential. The flaw in your reasoning (if you can call it reasoning) is the assumption that cable and satellite customers will abandon their cable or satellite en masse for USDTV. It isn't going to happen. There's no reason for a cable or satellite customer to consider OTA at all unless it's HD. USDTV doesn't get any customers unless they are already OTA, and that in turn requires HD. It's a narrow window of opportunity, and one which will presently close. They could kill cable and satellite. Don't drink your own snake oil. Everywhere in the world (yes, even with BOB's precious COFDM) OTA requires more consumer level maintenance of reception capability than cable or satellite. There is a very real cost to this. Cable and satellite both offer "install it and forget about it", and consumers will pay a premium for that. Well while this is true with current 8-VSB receivers it is EMPHATICALLY NOT TRUE of COFDM and hopefully not true of 5th generation 8-VSB receivers. BOB is a pathological liar, as proven by repeated reports of ongoing antenna-based problems with COFDM from around the world. This is a true snake-oil salesman. Satellite is more like install it and pray that is doesn't rain Bull****. I have satellite, and I live in rain country. At first USDTV must be cheaper and it can be. Its plant cost far less and maintenance is minor compared to cable. Not at the consumer end. Note that this is the same BOB who said that OTA was doomed since nobody would accept rooftop antennas. Its benefits can include no lost signal due to rain ala satellite Replaced with lost signal due to rain ala OTA. No the USDTV model carried to its logical end is not a bottom feeder it is the rebirth of OTA and the end of cable and satellite in any form that we now recognize them in if they exist at all. I have $1000 that says that you are full of ****. You are too much of a coward to accept it, especially as the funds for the wager would have to be put in escrow where you can't steal it and run away when you lose. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
"Bob Miller" wrote in message k.net... Gomer Jones wrote: Right an alternative to cable and satellite using OTA broadcast spectum, possible a pay service. And it could, I think will, lead to ala carte pricing and selection on cable and satellite. So the Emmis / USDTV model is good, more competition means progressively better service and lowered prices (in terms of relative dollars). So here we are back to the root of your issue modulation, as you state later. As in Europe the rebirth of OTA broadcasting is putting pressure on cable and satellite. Only two years after beginning FREEVIEW in the UK has already caused SKY Satellite to offer 200 free channels. My ONLY problem is with the US modulation 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting. Well isn't the battle over with, with Sinclairs endorsement, the OEMs adopting integrated receivers, maybe your business model would be better suited by jumping on the E-VSB bandwagon If the battle is over we won. Hard to understand with my arguments here but my BUSINESS MODEL REQUIRES that broadcasters are STUCK with a non mobile 8-VSB while we can use COFDM on other spectrum for mobile services. The better 5th generation 8-VSB receivers so LOCK IN 8-VSB that this is a great day. Understand that if current broadcasters could offer a mobile receiver why would anyone want to compete with them? Why would anyone start a new business using spectrum they had to pay for to compete with broadcasters who got their spectrum for free and have most of the content? It would be crazy. If they cannot compete then that is a different story. They can't do mobile with 8-VSB or if they try I would love to compete with them using COFDM. You have totally lost me here ... So why are you so ****ed? You said you won? Broadcast your mobile data services on other spectrum and let us watch HDTV. So we will let the market decide. If only we could let the market decide. As it is many decisions that should be market driven are decided by who has the most money politically in DC. And at the moment this is more true in the US than in many other countries. We try to export our morality and have laws against our companies taking or giving bribes overseas for business purposes while here at home our government is more and more run by outright bribery that is reported to us on TV every night and we accept it. Just listen to responses right here to the affect "they picked a modulation already so nothing can ever be done about it". YOu don't hear that in S. Korea where broadcasters refuse to go on the air with 8-VSB 6 years after is was chosen. The British tried to put a tax, the first tax of any kind, on the American Colonialist. These were loyal British subjects. The tax was 4% on a tea most favored by the colonist. The British sent a ship loaded with this tea at half price into Boston Harbor. A steal, a bargain and the Bostonian's threw it into the sea and then killed 300 or so of the soldiers who came to restore order. No such bloodshed today we would say "what are you going to do, nothing can be done" and then drink the tea. I guess you are angry at the government for not listening to you? Well get in line. |
No one should buy any HDTV set or seperate OTA receiver unless it has
the new 5th generation receiver technology in it and can handle MPEG4 Utter nonsense, but what else from our resident Snake Oil Salesman, BOB? The FACT is that the current generation 8VSB OTA HD tuners work absolutely fine in the vast majority of instances. Will the new ones be better? Of course, newer generations of most electronics are better. Does that mean you won't be able to receive OTA HD with current gen receivers? Of course not!!! Only BOB would try to scare you like this. On the other hand, I've always told friends to avoid integrated TVs (regardless of what tuner is integrated) because tuner technology is always improving. Of course what BOB fails to mention, and everyone who has purchased an integrated TV or plans to should be aware of, is that you can STILL upgrade your tuner when and if necessary. There is no barrier to upgrading merely because you have an integrated TV. The worst that may happen is that you've wasted the money on that portion of your HDTV that represents the cost of the tuner. But, you more than likely will get considerable use of your current tuner until an upgrade is desired. It's not the end of the world as some liars out there would have you believe. |
Do not believe anything Bob says. If he had his way nobody would be
watching excellent HDTV broadcasts at all. Amen |
My ONLY problem is with the US modulation 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting.
And while I still think it is a travesty and political hack job visited on the US public Endless dribble doled out by BOB time and time again. You see the only reason we have 8VSB is because of "under the table dealings"- translation, BOB got SCREWED betting on the wrong horse. |
Well isn't the battle over with, with Sinclairs endorsement, the OEMs
adopting integrated receivers, maybe your business model would be better suited by jumping on the E-VSB bandwagon Of course the battle is over! Only BOB doesn't know it. Would anyone like to inform BOB of the FCC decision? BOB reminds me of the guy that is found on the island still fighting the war 20 years after peace is declared. Amazing, it really is. |
If the battle is over we won. Hard to understand with my arguments here
but my BUSINESS MODEL REQUIRES that broadcasters are STUCK with a non mobile 8-VSB while we can use COFDM on other spectrum for mobile services. Hey folks, does anyone actually BELIEVE that BOB thinks he "won"? Can you believe this ****???????????????? |
Gomer Jones wrote:
"Bob Miller" wrote in message k.net... Gomer Jones wrote: Right an alternative to cable and satellite using OTA broadcast spectum, possible a pay service. And it could, I think will, lead to ala carte pricing and selection on cable and satellite. So the Emmis / USDTV model is good, more competition means progressively better service and lowered prices (in terms of relative dollars). So here we are back to the root of your issue modulation, as you state later. As in Europe the rebirth of OTA broadcasting is putting pressure on cable and satellite. Only two years after beginning FREEVIEW in the UK has already caused SKY Satellite to offer 200 free channels. My ONLY problem is with the US modulation 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting. Well isn't the battle over with, with Sinclairs endorsement, the OEMs adopting integrated receivers, maybe your business model would be better suited by jumping on the E-VSB bandwagon If the battle is over we won. Hard to understand with my arguments here but my BUSINESS MODEL REQUIRES that broadcasters are STUCK with a non mobile 8-VSB while we can use COFDM on other spectrum for mobile services. The better 5th generation 8-VSB receivers so LOCK IN 8-VSB that this is a great day. Understand that if current broadcasters could offer a mobile receiver why would anyone want to compete with them? Why would anyone start a new business using spectrum they had to pay for to compete with broadcasters who got their spectrum for free and have most of the content? It would be crazy. If they cannot compete then that is a different story. They can't do mobile with 8-VSB or if they try I would love to compete with them using COFDM. You have totally lost me here ... So why are you so ****ed? You said you won? Broadcast your mobile data services on other spectrum and let us watch HDTV. Broadcasters who were given the spectrum for free are still squatting on spectrum we bought at auction. They are using their clout in Washington as they have done for many decades now to keep this spectrum out of the hands of potential competitors. While the law, and broadcasters agreed to this when it was passed, said the drop dead date for the end of the digital transition is 2006 and the FCC now suggest that 2009 MIGHT be possible the broadcasters are still thinking no sooner than 2020. We won only refers to broadcasters getting stuck with 8-VSB. Unfortunatley all US consumers are stuck with 8-VSB also. The better 8-VSB receivers suggest that the digital transition will now take place a little faster is all the good news. Again don't expect to watch a lot of free HDTV OTA with your current receiver for very long. So we will let the market decide. If only we could let the market decide. As it is many decisions that should be market driven are decided by who has the most money politically in DC. And at the moment this is more true in the US than in many other countries. We try to export our morality and have laws against our companies taking or giving bribes overseas for business purposes while here at home our government is more and more run by outright bribery that is reported to us on TV every night and we accept it. Just listen to responses right here to the affect "they picked a modulation already so nothing can ever be done about it". YOu don't hear that in S. Korea where broadcasters refuse to go on the air with 8-VSB 6 years after is was chosen. The British tried to put a tax, the first tax of any kind, on the American Colonialist. These were loyal British subjects. The tax was 4% on a tea most favored by the colonist. The British sent a ship loaded with this tea at half price into Boston Harbor. A steal, a bargain and the Bostonian's threw it into the sea and then killed 300 or so of the soldiers who came to restore order. No such bloodshed today we would say "what are you going to do, nothing can be done" and then drink the tea. I guess you are angry at the government for not listening to you? Well get in line. I think that is the point, we should not be getting in line anymore. |
We won only refers to broadcasters getting stuck with 8-VSB.
Unfortunatley all US consumers are stuck with 8-VSB also. OY VEY!!! Does anyone know of a good chiroprachter? BOOBY's spin has turned my head around so violently, I need an adjustment. Does ANYONE believe this dope's crap??? Man, he is sickening. |
Bob Miller wrote in message thlink.net...
Mark Crispin wrote: On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, CGott wrote: Assuming that you intend to use an STB (set top box, that is a separate HDTV tuner) you are fine. The TV probably has both component and DVI, DVI being slightly preferable. If you can wait a short while until the FCC mandate kicks in, you'll find TVs with a built-in HDTV tuner showing up on the market for much less (and the TVs without the tuner being dumped at fire-sale prices). "Broadcasters scrambling their signals" is a problem that only exists in Bob Miller's fantasies. There is something about copy-restriction, but that's only going to affect digital copying, and the final jury isn't out on that. If you have a TV with an HDTV tuner, you'll be able to watch your favorite network prime time shows in HDTV for free. That's not going away. -- Mark -- Your first worry is that broadcasters will segment their signal. That is they will satisfy the requirement of the FCC that they broadcast AT LEAST ONE NTSC PROGRAM WITH MPEG2 IN THE FREE AND CLEAR and they they will use the rest of their bandwidth to deliver more programming using a codec such as WM9, MPEG4 or VP6 which is 2 to 3 times more efficient. This programming could be free, part free or all subscription but even if it is ALL FREE, that is NO SCRAMBLING, your current 8-VSB OTA receiver will still NOT RECEIVE ANYTHING BUT THE NTSC QUALITY PROGRAM. NTSC=SD. If he did he would tell you himself that what I say will happen IS ALREADY HAPPENING. USDTV is selling receivers in WalMart for $200. IN a couple of months they will start selling receivers that do both MPEG2 and MPEG4. Where ever they operate they make deals with broadcasters to use some stations to do exactly what I suggest above. Except that they have no plans that I know of to do any HD in their MPEG4 bandwidth. Broadcasters have invested in USDTV. Emmis Broadcasting encouraged by USDTV has gone a step furthur. They have formed an organization of broadcasters to do the same thing but on steroids. Emmis has already signed up over 400 stations out of the total of 1600. That after only a few months. They expect ALL broadcasters to join. They talk of buying USDTV. Hey a few hundred $ for a receiver that works now and may work for some time before what I suggest happens (or it may not happen) is no big deal. Buy it but don't say you have not been warned. The FCC won't tell you, broadcasters won't tell you, the manufacturers of 8-VSB receivers won't tell you that current receivers may become obsolete IN MANY POSSIBLE ways. And then there are those who think that they are promoting HDTV by ignoring reality, by denying the risk, because they work for one of the above entities. And then there are potentially those who would consciously deceive new or would be new HD buyers about the risk because they want as many as possible in the same boat with them. The more in the less chance it will sink seems to be the reasoning. Good reasoning if the numbers in the boat were actually very high. They are not and the powers that be will ignore them as this change occurs. I would not buy an 8-VSB receiver until they have 5th generation Zenith capability and can handle advanced codecs like MPEG4, WM9 or VP6. The capabilities of the 5th generation receivers were promised in 1999. Actually much more was promised or more correctly they said that they had the capability of mobile and indoor ease of reception in 1999. The only reason I believe that 5th generation receivers are better is because of trusted friends who have tested them and told me. No mobile however. When you talk about receivers, are you talking about a separate set top receiver or an HDTV capable television like the Sony KV34HS510. |
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CGott wrote:
Bob Miller wrote in message thlink.net... Mark Crispin wrote: On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, CGott wrote: Assuming that you intend to use an STB (set top box, that is a separate HDTV tuner) you are fine. The TV probably has both component and DVI, DVI being slightly preferable. If you can wait a short while until the FCC mandate kicks in, you'll find TVs with a built-in HDTV tuner showing up on the market for much less (and the TVs without the tuner being dumped at fire-sale prices). "Broadcasters scrambling their signals" is a problem that only exists in Bob Miller's fantasies. There is something about copy-restriction, but that's only going to affect digital copying, and the final jury isn't out on that. If you have a TV with an HDTV tuner, you'll be able to watch your favorite network prime time shows in HDTV for free. That's not going away. -- Mark -- Your first worry is that broadcasters will segment their signal. That is they will satisfy the requirement of the FCC that they broadcast AT LEAST ONE NTSC PROGRAM WITH MPEG2 IN THE FREE AND CLEAR and they they will use the rest of their bandwidth to deliver more programming using a codec such as WM9, MPEG4 or VP6 which is 2 to 3 times more efficient. This programming could be free, part free or all subscription but even if it is ALL FREE, that is NO SCRAMBLING, your current 8-VSB OTA receiver will still NOT RECEIVE ANYTHING BUT THE NTSC QUALITY PROGRAM. NTSC=SD. If he did he would tell you himself that what I say will happen IS ALREADY HAPPENING. USDTV is selling receivers in WalMart for $200. IN a couple of months they will start selling receivers that do both MPEG2 and MPEG4. Where ever they operate they make deals with broadcasters to use some stations to do exactly what I suggest above. Except that they have no plans that I know of to do any HD in their MPEG4 bandwidth. Broadcasters have invested in USDTV. Emmis Broadcasting encouraged by USDTV has gone a step furthur. They have formed an organization of broadcasters to do the same thing but on steroids. Emmis has already signed up over 400 stations out of the total of 1600. That after only a few months. They expect ALL broadcasters to join. They talk of buying USDTV. Hey a few hundred $ for a receiver that works now and may work for some time before what I suggest happens (or it may not happen) is no big deal. Buy it but don't say you have not been warned. The FCC won't tell you, broadcasters won't tell you, the manufacturers of 8-VSB receivers won't tell you that current receivers may become obsolete IN MANY POSSIBLE ways. And then there are those who think that they are promoting HDTV by ignoring reality, by denying the risk, because they work for one of the above entities. And then there are potentially those who would consciously deceive new or would be new HD buyers about the risk because they want as many as possible in the same boat with them. The more in the less chance it will sink seems to be the reasoning. Good reasoning if the numbers in the boat were actually very high. They are not and the powers that be will ignore them as this change occurs. I would not buy an 8-VSB receiver until they have 5th generation Zenith capability and can handle advanced codecs like MPEG4, WM9 or VP6. The capabilities of the 5th generation receivers were promised in 1999. Actually much more was promised or more correctly they said that they had the capability of mobile and indoor ease of reception in 1999. The only reason I believe that 5th generation receivers are better is because of trusted friends who have tested them and told me. No mobile however. When you talk about receivers, are you talking about a separate set top receiver or an HDTV capable television like the Sony KV34HS510. Both. I definitely would not buy any integrated HDTV set. Buy a monitor with NO ATSC or NTSC receiver in it. Hook it up to your cable or satellite receiver. RENT don't buy an 8-VSB receiver from your satellite or cable company. If you buy a OTA receiver just know that if it cannot do MPEG4 it probably will become obsolete IMO. If you buy one that is not 5th generation make sure you can return it if it has a problem with reception. I beleive that any resale of 8-VSB receivers from here on out will go like this. What generation is it? Can it handle MPEG4? If not MPEG4/5th Gen it will be worthless on the resale market. |
Go for it. Everything will be obsolete in the future, so don't get hung up
on it. In the NEAR future, you should be OK, and any changes in any standards will be spread out over time (look how long it is taking just to kill off NTSC broadcasting). Oh, and don't listen to Bob. He has a bug up his rear about losing the COFDM vs. 8VSB battle, and he just can't tolerate the thought of HDTV possibly being a success. Phil "CGott" wrote in message om... I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? |
Real bad advise Phil unless by the near future you mean a year or so.
Most people want to have a $300 piece of equipment work for at least 5 years in the TV set area. USDTV is going to be selling receivers that do MPEG4 in August/September. Their partners in this venture include WalMart (an investor) and Hisense, a Chinese TV manufacturer who is trying to break into the US market. USDTV is already starting to try to answer the question about their own outmoded receivers that are being sold NOW. These are the least expensive 8-VSB receivers available and there is a real company that is advertising and trying to sell OTA HD and SD. This is something quite new, a business whose focus is OTA for their survival. Up till now no broadcaster or other company I know of was in this position. They actually advertise. And they have the interest of all broadcasters. This was the focus of attention at NAB this year... http://www.idate.fr/an/qdn/an-04/IF308/index_a.htm New business models for digital terrestrial TV "Other solutions include consortia of local channels which could go as far as purchasing their content from cable operators. This type of trend was the focus of lively discussions at the NAB, and poses a number of problems: terrestrial TV will have to rely solely on its broadcasting capacities, and its future will be largely decided by the existence of high quality receivers, but also by consumers’ willingness to install terrestrial antennae that have long disappeared from the rooftops. A possible decision by the FCC to charge for frequencies may also play a role here." So everybody in the industry is talking about it, 400 of 1600 TV stations have already joined a "consortia" with most of the rest expected to join (Emmis), we have the biggest retailer and the NO ONE company in the US, WalMart, as an investor and already selling the lowest priced receiver on the market and we have one of the biggest and hungriest Chinese TV manufacturers making and financing those receivers and all you can say is DON"T WORRY! I think Phil you may be one of those early adopters that want to "HELP" newbies join the HDTV club at all cost. I think telling the truth and getting it right the first time would go a lot further to fostering HDTV and the US would be a lot further along with HDTV if that had been the direction Congress, the FCC and early adopters had taken. If CGott doesn't mind buying a new receiver in a year or two then he can go ahead. I think sound advice would be to know the risk that he is taking. To me it makes sense to buy a monitor with NO tuner in it at all, NTSC or ATSC. Then if you can get a receiver from cable or satellite do that on a rental basis. If you must buy some kind of stand alone receiver and can wait a month or two buy a USDTV receiver that can handle MPEG4 but make sure you can return it if you have a reception problem. The best of all (8-VSB) worlds would be to wait for a 5th generation receiver that does MPEG4. The best of all worlds today would be a COFDM receiver/PVR with VP6/WM9/MPEG4 capability IMO and it is coming to the US also. BTW Phil I did not lose the COFDM/8-VSB battle the US and all its citizens did. We (business wise) won since our business plan depends on broadcasters being stuck with 8-VSB or at best (also worst) E-VSB. The new improved 8-VSB receivers will cement in 8-VSB in the US and ensure that current broadcasters will not be offering a mobile service. And I have been an advocate of HDTV from the 1980's. Being pro COFDM is being pro HDTV. HDTV OTA has suffered a 5 year and counting DELAY because of 8-VSB. Bob Miller Phil Ross wrote: Go for it. Everything will be obsolete in the future, so don't get hung up on it. In the NEAR future, you should be OK, and any changes in any standards will be spread out over time (look how long it is taking just to kill off NTSC broadcasting). Oh, and don't listen to Bob. He has a bug up his rear about losing the COFDM vs. 8VSB battle, and he just can't tolerate the thought of HDTV possibly being a success. Phil "CGott" wrote in message om... I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble their signals, or should I wait a few years? |
Bob Miller wrote in news:WCkDc.1951$lh4.1432
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net: This is something quite new, a business whose focus is OTA for their survival. Up till now no broadcaster or other company I know of was in this position. Now there's a statement that's typical of Bob - twisting stuff around to his own means and posting something that sounds fairly reasonable as long as you don't think about it or do any research. Seems to me that before the proliferation of cable TV, every local broadcaster and the national networks were in the position of having to focus on OTA for their survival. And in all but the largest markets with relatively well to do broadcasters, the local broadcasters still depend on OTA - that's how their signal gets to the cable head! |
Jeff Shoaf wrote:
Bob Miller wrote in news:WCkDc.1951$lh4.1432 @newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net: This is something quite new, a business whose focus is OTA for their survival. Up till now no broadcaster or other company I know of was in this position. Now there's a statement that's typical of Bob - twisting stuff around to his own means and posting something that sounds fairly reasonable as long as you don't think about it or do any research. Seems to me that before the proliferation of cable TV, every local broadcaster and the national networks were in the position of having to focus on OTA for their survival. And in all but the largest markets with relatively well to do broadcasters, the local broadcasters still depend on OTA - that's how their signal gets to the cable head! Before cable yes I should have said recently like the last ten or twenty years. And making sure the engineer keeps the transmitter going so that the signal get to the cable headend so that the broadcaster qualifies for must carry has been THE ONLY reason that justified the use of the broadcast spectrum for a long time. Broadcasters FOCUS has been on maintaining and increasing their MUST CARRY rights. USDTV is the FIRST company to FOCUS on OTA to make money broadcasting OTA to actual customers with NO other visible means of support. In recent years UHF applications to the FCC were specifically positioned near cable headends to make it easy to get the signal there and with little or no concern for the demographics of their actual OTA coverage area. Many believe that this is the only reason there much success with analog UHF spectrum from the get go. |
Bob Miller wrote: The MPEG2 HDTV is free OTA DTV but the MPEG4 can be free or subscription based. As USDTV or Emmis bring all broadcasters on board the only programming left on MPEG2 will be ONE SD program. Should there be only one SD program left for free broadcast TV, the citizens, who own the spectrum, will have been ripped off. I know that the FCC rules say that only one SD program of NTSC quality need be broadcast; but, this is not what the public has been expecting. The public expects free OTA HDTV. This even effects satellite and cable viewers. Broadcast TV has consistently held the highest ratings, higher then even cable only programs. Is a popular show like CSI (currently being broadcast in HDTV) going going to be shown in HDTV on cable and only SD OTA because the local CBS affiliate (as an example) has sold their spectrum to USDTV? Or possibly CSI will only be available in HDTV on USDTV and only SD on cable, satellite and OTA. Either way the viewers get screwed. Maybe its time for either the FCC or Congress to mandate an HDTV requirement for broadcast TV; a requirement for a full 19.39 mb/s HDTV data rate. Lower then this rate results in annoying pixelation; haven't yet seen good quality HDTV when there is more then one program being simulcast. |
numeric wrote:
Bob Miller wrote: The MPEG2 HDTV is free OTA DTV but the MPEG4 can be free or subscription based. As USDTV or Emmis bring all broadcasters on board the only programming left on MPEG2 will be ONE SD program. Should there be only one SD program left for free broadcast TV, the citizens, who own the spectrum, will have been ripped off. I know that the FCC rules say that only one SD program of NTSC quality need be broadcast; but, this is not what the public has been expecting. The public expects free OTA HDTV. This even effects satellite and cable viewers. Broadcast TV has consistently held the highest ratings, higher then even cable only programs. Is a popular show like CSI (currently being broadcast in HDTV) going going to be shown in HDTV on cable and only SD OTA because the local CBS affiliate (as an example) has sold their spectrum to USDTV? Or possibly CSI will only be available in HDTV on USDTV and only SD on cable, satellite and OTA. Either way the viewers get screwed. Maybe its time for either the FCC or Congress to mandate an HDTV requirement for broadcast TV; a requirement for a full 19.39 mb/s HDTV data rate. Lower then this rate results in annoying pixelation; haven't yet seen good quality HDTV when there is more then one program being simulcast. A few early adopters are the only ones even paying attention and as time goes by and more HD is on cable and satellite even they show less interest. Congress has stated in both Hearings in the House and Senate over the last few weeks that they are tired of the digital transition and just want to get it over. The last thing they want to hear is any BS about HDTV and OTA and they said as much publicly. A broadcaster posted on AVSForum that he demonstrated pristine HD to a civic group and they all were impressed and then in passing he mentioned USDTV. The group was very interested in USDTV, many wanted to sign up on the spot and showed no more interest in the HD demo. The public is not clamoring for free OTA HDTV. They hardly know what OTA TV is anymore. Congress is now figuring that out. They are going to have a hearing on Berlin where the digital transition took only 9 months because their Government figured out that very few relied on OTA anymore. Something less than 5%. 5%, if we look at the numbers right, is high for the US where those who rely on OTA is more like 3 or 4% not the 15% bandied about. Congress has also asked for info on that subject. They have a lot of comment request ongoing about this subject at the moment. Can you read between the lines??? HD only requires 19 Mbps if you use MPEG2. If you use WM9, MPEG4 or VP6 you get higher quality at a much lower bitrate. That is why I was arguing for VP4 and COFDM way back in 2000. COFDM is more robust at a higher bit rate, 19.76 Mbps, than 8-VSB at 19.34 Mbps and if we had used VP4 at the time we would now have the best of all worlds with VP6 and COFDM. The BS decibel level and the money pushing it were just too high in DC and we got what money bought at the time, MPEG2, 8-VSB and a major delay during which the major players, broadcasters, major retailers and the CEA members all knew what was going on. Or do you think there was little in the way of full power broadcasting on the part of the broadcasters, little production of 8-VSB receivers and NO advertising for nothing? This was a delay to let 8-VSB get fixed and they probably thought they would fix it by now. You have E-VSB coming out and a decent receiver from Zenith. But what if we had gone with COFDM and a better codec back in 2000? By now we would have 50 million receivers in homes both for SD and HD and their cost would be peanuts. By this Christmas it would be hard to find a TV set that did not have a COFDM receiver built in and without a mandate. Most of the media players would also receive mobile DTV not just let you save programs to them to take with you. |
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004, numeric wrote:
Should there be only one SD program left for free broadcast TV, the citizens, who own the spectrum, will have been ripped off. I know that the FCC rules say that only one SD program of NTSC quality need be broadcast; but, this is not what the public has been expecting. The public expects free OTA HDTV. This even effects satellite and cable viewers. Broadcast TV has consistently held the highest ratings, higher then even cable only programs. Is a popular show like CSI (currently being broadcast in HDTV) going going to be shown in HDTV on cable and only SD OTA because the local CBS affiliate (as an example) has sold their spectrum to USDTV? Or possibly CSI will only be available in HDTV on USDTV and only SD on cable, satellite and OTA. Either way the viewers get screwed. All of the above are reasons why it's not going to happen, Bob Miller's psychotic rantings notwithstanding. A good rule of thumb is that if you take anything that he says, the opposite is true. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
But what if we had gone with COFDM and a better codec back in 2000? We would have had a lousy TV system that screws up the picture every time some motor fires up, and Bob Miller would have been hung, drawn, and quartered for his part in inflicting that abortion upon us. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
A few early adopters are the only ones even paying attention and as time goes by and more HD is on cable and satellite even they show less interest. Remember -- take everything that BOB says, and the exact opposite is the truth! -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. |
"Bob Miller" wrote in message
ink.net... wrote: Blah blah blah COFDM blah blah blah blah blah blah COFDM blah blah COFDM blah blah blah blah blah COFDM blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah COFDM blah blah blah blah blah. Get over it BOB. |
Bob Miller wrote in news:Y9nDc.14772$w07.7219
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net: Before cable yes I should have said recently like the last ten or twenty years. And making sure the engineer keeps the transmitter going so that the signal get to the cable headend so that the broadcaster qualifies for must carry has been THE ONLY reason that justified the use of the broadcast spectrum for a long time. I'll make a deal with you, Bob. My parents get all of their TV reception via OTA. If the majority of the local broadcasters in my area do what you're predicting (broadcast one SDTV signal via free OTA and add a multitude of pay DTV OTA signals) before the FCC mandates the broadcasters drop their analog broadcast, I'll buy my folks a new 45" widescreen TV, a receiver to get those pay OTA signals, and pay for a minimum of one year's subscription to those pay DTV OTA broadcasts. If the majority of the broadcasters in my area don't do what you're predicting and continue to broadcast free OTA HDTV, you can buy them a 45" widescreen with an integrated 8VSB HD OTA tuner. |
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