Do not believe anything Bob says. If he had his way nobody would be
watching excellent HDTV broadcasts at all.


Amen

My ONLY problem is with the US modulation 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting.

And while I still think it is a travesty and political hack job visited
on the US public

Endless dribble doled out by BOB time and time again. You see the only reason
we have 8VSB is because of "under the table dealings"- translation, BOB got
SCREWED betting on the wrong horse.

Well isn't the battle over with, with Sinclairs endorsement, the OEMs
adopting integrated receivers, maybe your business model would be better
suited by jumping on the E-VSB bandwagon

Of course the battle is over! Only BOB doesn't know it. Would anyone like to
inform BOB of the FCC decision? BOB reminds me of the guy that is found on the
island still fighting the war 20 years after peace is declared. Amazing, it
really is.

If the battle is over we won. Hard to understand with my arguments here
but my BUSINESS MODEL REQUIRES that broadcasters are STUCK with a non
mobile 8-VSB while we can use COFDM on other spectrum for mobile services.

Hey folks, does anyone actually BELIEVE that BOB thinks he "won"? Can you
believe this ****????????????????

Gomer Jones wrote:

"Bob Miller" wrote in message
k.net...

Gomer Jones wrote:

Right an alternative to cable and satellite using OTA broadcast spectum,
possible a pay service. And it could, I think will, lead to ala carte
pricing and selection on cable and satellite.


So the Emmis / USDTV model is good, more competition means progressively
better service and lowered prices (in terms of relative dollars). So

here

we are back to the root of your issue modulation, as you state later.



As in Europe the rebirth of OTA broadcasting is putting pressure on
cable and satellite. Only two years after beginning FREEVIEW in the UK
has already caused SKY Satellite to offer 200 free channels.

My ONLY problem is with the US modulation 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting.


Well isn't the battle over with, with Sinclairs endorsement, the OEMs
adopting integrated receivers, maybe your business model would be better
suited by jumping on the E-VSB bandwagon

If the battle is over we won. Hard to understand with my arguments here
but my BUSINESS MODEL REQUIRES that broadcasters are STUCK with a non
mobile 8-VSB while we can use COFDM on other spectrum for mobile services.

The better 5th generation 8-VSB receivers so LOCK IN 8-VSB that this is
a great day. Understand that if current broadcasters could offer a
mobile receiver why would anyone want to compete with them? Why would
anyone start a new business using spectrum they had to pay for to
compete with broadcasters who got their spectrum for free and have most
of the content? It would be crazy. If they cannot compete then that is a
different story. They can't do mobile with 8-VSB or if they try I would
love to compete with them using COFDM.



You have totally lost me here ... So why are you so ****ed? You said you
won? Broadcast your mobile data services on other spectrum and let us watch
HDTV.


Broadcasters who were given the spectrum for free are still squatting on
spectrum we bought at auction. They are using their clout in Washington
as they have done for many decades now to keep this spectrum out of the
hands of potential competitors.

While the law, and broadcasters agreed to this when it was passed, said
the drop dead date for the end of the digital transition is 2006 and the
FCC now suggest that 2009 MIGHT be possible the broadcasters are still
thinking no sooner than 2020.

We won only refers to broadcasters getting stuck with 8-VSB.
Unfortunatley all US consumers are stuck with 8-VSB also. The better
8-VSB receivers suggest that the digital transition will now take place
a little faster is all the good news.

Again don't expect to watch a lot of free HDTV OTA with your current
receiver for very long.


So we will let the market decide.


If only we could let the market decide. As it is many decisions that
should be market driven are decided by who has the most money
politically in DC.

And at the moment this is more true in the US than in many other
countries. We try to export our morality and have laws against our
companies taking or giving bribes overseas for business purposes while
here at home our government is more and more run by outright bribery
that is reported to us on TV every night and we accept it.

Just listen to responses right here to the affect "they picked a
modulation already so nothing can ever be done about it". YOu don't hear
that in S. Korea where broadcasters refuse to go on the air with 8-VSB 6
years after is was chosen.

The British tried to put a tax, the first tax of any kind, on the
American Colonialist. These were loyal British subjects. The tax was 4%
on a tea most favored by the colonist. The British sent a ship loaded
with this tea at half price into Boston Harbor. A steal, a bargain and
the Bostonian's threw it into the sea and then killed 300 or so of the
soldiers who came to restore order.

No such bloodshed today we would say "what are you going to do, nothing
can be done" and then drink the tea.



I guess you are angry at the government for not listening to you? Well get
in line.


I think that is the point, we should not be getting in line anymore.

We won only refers to broadcasters getting stuck with 8-VSB.
Unfortunatley all US consumers are stuck with 8-VSB also.

OY VEY!!! Does anyone know of a good chiroprachter? BOOBY's spin has turned my
head around so violently, I need an adjustment. Does ANYONE believe this dope's
crap??? Man, he is sickening.

Bob Miller wrote in message thlink.net...
Mark Crispin wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, CGott wrote:


Assuming that you intend to use an STB (set top box, that is a separate
HDTV tuner) you are fine. The TV probably has both component and DVI,
DVI being slightly preferable.

If you can wait a short while until the FCC mandate kicks in, you'll
find TVs with a built-in HDTV tuner showing up on the market for much
less (and the TVs without the tuner being dumped at fire-sale prices).

"Broadcasters scrambling their signals" is a problem that only exists in
Bob Miller's fantasies. There is something about copy-restriction, but
that's only going to affect digital copying, and the final jury isn't
out on that.

If you have a TV with an HDTV tuner, you'll be able to watch your
favorite network prime time shows in HDTV for free. That's not going away.

-- Mark --


Your first worry is that broadcasters will segment their signal. That is
they will satisfy the requirement of the FCC that they broadcast AT
LEAST ONE NTSC PROGRAM WITH MPEG2 IN THE FREE AND CLEAR and they they
will use the rest of their bandwidth to deliver more programming using a
codec such as WM9, MPEG4 or VP6 which is 2 to 3 times more efficient.

This programming could be free, part free or all subscription but even
if it is ALL FREE, that is NO SCRAMBLING, your current 8-VSB OTA
receiver will still NOT RECEIVE ANYTHING BUT THE NTSC QUALITY PROGRAM.
NTSC=SD.


If he did he would tell you himself that what I say will happen IS
ALREADY HAPPENING.

USDTV is selling receivers in WalMart for $200. IN a couple of months
they will start selling receivers that do both MPEG2 and MPEG4. Where
ever they operate they make deals with broadcasters to use some stations
to do exactly what I suggest above. Except that they have no plans that
I know of to do any HD in their MPEG4 bandwidth. Broadcasters have
invested in USDTV.

Emmis Broadcasting encouraged by USDTV has gone a step furthur. They
have formed an organization of broadcasters to do the same thing but on
steroids. Emmis has already signed up over 400 stations out of the total
of 1600. That after only a few months. They expect ALL broadcasters to
join. They talk of buying USDTV.

Hey a few hundred $ for a receiver that works now and may work for some
time before what I suggest happens (or it may not happen) is no big
deal. Buy it but don't say you have not been warned.

The FCC won't tell you, broadcasters won't tell you, the manufacturers
of 8-VSB receivers won't tell you that current receivers may become
obsolete IN MANY POSSIBLE ways.

And then there are those who think that they are promoting HDTV by
ignoring reality, by denying the risk, because they work for one of the
above entities.

And then there are potentially those who would consciously deceive new
or would be new HD buyers about the risk because they want as many as
possible in the same boat with them. The more in the less chance it will
sink seems to be the reasoning.

Good reasoning if the numbers in the boat were actually very high. They
are not and the powers that be will ignore them as this change occurs.

I would not buy an 8-VSB receiver until they have 5th generation Zenith
capability and can handle advanced codecs like MPEG4, WM9 or VP6. The
capabilities of the 5th generation receivers were promised in 1999.

Actually much more was promised or more correctly they said that they
had the capability of mobile and indoor ease of reception in 1999. The
only reason I believe that 5th generation receivers are better is
because of trusted friends who have tested them and told me. No mobile
however.
When you talk about receivers, are you talking about a separate set
top receiver or an HDTV capable television like the Sony KV34HS510.

CGott wrote:
Bob Miller wrote in message thlink.net...

Mark Crispin wrote:


On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, CGott wrote:

Assuming that you intend to use an STB (set top box, that is a separate
HDTV tuner) you are fine. The TV probably has both component and DVI,
DVI being slightly preferable.

If you can wait a short while until the FCC mandate kicks in, you'll
find TVs with a built-in HDTV tuner showing up on the market for much
less (and the TVs without the tuner being dumped at fire-sale prices).

"Broadcasters scrambling their signals" is a problem that only exists in
Bob Miller's fantasies. There is something about copy-restriction, but
that's only going to affect digital copying, and the final jury isn't
out on that.

If you have a TV with an HDTV tuner, you'll be able to watch your
favorite network prime time shows in HDTV for free. That's not going away.

-- Mark --


Your first worry is that broadcasters will segment their signal. That is
they will satisfy the requirement of the FCC that they broadcast AT
LEAST ONE NTSC PROGRAM WITH MPEG2 IN THE FREE AND CLEAR and they they
will use the rest of their bandwidth to deliver more programming using a
codec such as WM9, MPEG4 or VP6 which is 2 to 3 times more efficient.

This programming could be free, part free or all subscription but even
if it is ALL FREE, that is NO SCRAMBLING, your current 8-VSB OTA
receiver will still NOT RECEIVE ANYTHING BUT THE NTSC QUALITY PROGRAM.
NTSC=SD.


If he did he would tell you himself that what I say will happen IS
ALREADY HAPPENING.

USDTV is selling receivers in WalMart for $200. IN a couple of months
they will start selling receivers that do both MPEG2 and MPEG4. Where
ever they operate they make deals with broadcasters to use some stations
to do exactly what I suggest above. Except that they have no plans that
I know of to do any HD in their MPEG4 bandwidth. Broadcasters have
invested in USDTV.

Emmis Broadcasting encouraged by USDTV has gone a step furthur. They
have formed an organization of broadcasters to do the same thing but on
steroids. Emmis has already signed up over 400 stations out of the total
of 1600. That after only a few months. They expect ALL broadcasters to
join. They talk of buying USDTV.

Hey a few hundred $ for a receiver that works now and may work for some
time before what I suggest happens (or it may not happen) is no big
deal. Buy it but don't say you have not been warned.

The FCC won't tell you, broadcasters won't tell you, the manufacturers
of 8-VSB receivers won't tell you that current receivers may become
obsolete IN MANY POSSIBLE ways.

And then there are those who think that they are promoting HDTV by
ignoring reality, by denying the risk, because they work for one of the
above entities.

And then there are potentially those who would consciously deceive new
or would be new HD buyers about the risk because they want as many as
possible in the same boat with them. The more in the less chance it will
sink seems to be the reasoning.

Good reasoning if the numbers in the boat were actually very high. They
are not and the powers that be will ignore them as this change occurs.

I would not buy an 8-VSB receiver until they have 5th generation Zenith
capability and can handle advanced codecs like MPEG4, WM9 or VP6. The
capabilities of the 5th generation receivers were promised in 1999.

Actually much more was promised or more correctly they said that they
had the capability of mobile and indoor ease of reception in 1999. The
only reason I believe that 5th generation receivers are better is
because of trusted friends who have tested them and told me. No mobile
however.

When you talk about receivers, are you talking about a separate set
top receiver or an HDTV capable television like the Sony KV34HS510.

Both. I definitely would not buy any integrated HDTV set. Buy a monitor
with NO ATSC or NTSC receiver in it. Hook it up to your cable or
satellite receiver. RENT don't buy an 8-VSB receiver from your satellite
or cable company.

If you buy a OTA receiver just know that if it cannot do MPEG4 it
probably will become obsolete IMO. If you buy one that is not 5th
generation make sure you can return it if it has a problem with reception.

I beleive that any resale of 8-VSB receivers from here on out will go
like this. What generation is it? Can it handle MPEG4? If not MPEG4/5th
Gen it will be worthless on the resale market.

Go for it. Everything will be obsolete in the future, so don't get hung up
on it. In the NEAR future, you should be OK, and any changes in any
standards will be spread out over time (look how long it is taking just to
kill off NTSC broadcasting).

Oh, and don't listen to Bob. He has a bug up his rear about losing the COFDM
vs. 8VSB battle, and he just can't tolerate the thought of HDTV possibly
being a success.

Phil

"CGott" wrote in message
om...
I'm thinking of buying a set like Sony's KV 32HS510, for use in
receiving over the air programming (I don't plan on getting cable
anytime soon). This TV has the DVI HDTV connection. Does that prevent
it from becoming obsolete in the future, if broadcasters scramble
their signals, or should I wait a few years?