DSO question
 

Can anyone tell me *why* there is a two-week gap between phase 1 and
phase 2 of DSO? i.e. Why not do it all at the same time?

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 10:13, Mark wrote:
Can anyone tell me *why* there is a two-week gap between phase 1 and
phase 2 of DSO? i.e. Why not do it all at the same time?

It's a good question. I've been told it's to allow for people who, (for
whatever reason) haven't equipped themselves with a Freeview box in
time, not to be left with nothing to watch. They still have BBC 1, ITV,
and C4 analogue for a fortnight, while they sort themselves out. It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Interestingly however, the Channel Islands were done in one big step
over night, and also interestingly there was no DTT service at all there
until DSO, so everybody who still wanted terrestrial reception had to
buy a box. I suspect because the CI didn't have Freeview until last
year, use and penetration of Sky and Freesat is much higher ?



--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:13, Mark wrote:
Can anyone tell me *why* there is a two-week gap between phase 1 and
phase 2 of DSO? i.e. Why not do it all at the same time?

It's a good question. I've been told it's to allow for people who, (for
whatever reason) haven't equipped themselves with a Freeview box in
time, not to be left with nothing to watch. They still have BBC 1, ITV,
and C4 analogue for a fortnight, while they sort themselves out.

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a switch or
two?

Interestingly however, the Channel Islands were done in one big step
over night, and also interestingly there was no DTT service at all there
until DSO, so everybody who still wanted terrestrial reception had to
buy a box. I suspect because the CI didn't have Freeview until last
year, use and penetration of Sky and Freesat is much higher ?

Probably. People have difficulty with DTT here and most houses have
satellite dishes.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the transmission
aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building is more akin to
plumbing. So to connect up the new high power DTT transmitters there's a
lot of mechanical work involved. Of course a lot is prep'ed before hand,
but even so there's an hour or two of frantic effort to switch the
feeders over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation (analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those, but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit overnight.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do anything until
the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the transmission
aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building is more akin to
plumbing. So to connect up the new high power DTT transmitters there's a
lot of mechanical work involved. Of course a lot is prep'ed before hand,
but even so there's an hour or two of frantic effort to switch the feeders
over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation (analogue and DTT)
transposers are installed in the months leading up to DSO. On DSO night it
is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those, but of course in
some areas there are several dozen to visit overnight.

--

I still find it puzzling why it takes this country a total of five years to
complete something that most other countries seem to accomplish overnight.

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 11:29, Rick wrote:

I still find it puzzling why it takes this country a total of five years
to complete something that most other countries seem to accomplish
overnight.

We've got a very extensive UHF network, of 1154 transmitters, which
carried (before DSO started) 4 analogue services. The other extreme is
the Netherlands that has a total network of about 30 transmitters.

We also complicated matters by launching 12 years ago a low power DTT
service of 6 muxes from the 80 largest (in terms of population)
stations. The provision of those 6 muxes was alongside the existing 4 or
5 analogue services. The DTT services were (and are still not) permitted
to interfere with reception of the analogues. That's a directive that is
partially responsible for the slow drawn out process, and in the
Midlands and East Anglia, all those multiple retune events at Sandy
Heath and Waltham this year.

Also, the existing high power analogue transmission aerials and feeders,
are unsuitable for 6 high power DTT muxes, so they've needed to be
replaced at just about all of the 50 main stations. In some cases
(Rowridge, Black Hill, Caldbeck) completely new masts have had to be
constructed.

In other countries the high power DTT services have been added alongside
analogue, because those countries have enough spectrum to dual operate.
Remember VHF is used as well as UHF in some countries, we don't have
that luxury here, as we did for the 405 to 625 switchover for instance.


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2011 11:29, Rick wrote:


In other countries the high power DTT services have been added alongside
analogue, because those countries have enough spectrum to dual operate.
Remember VHF is used as well as UHF in some countries, we don't have that
luxury here, as we did for the 405 to 625 switchover for instance.



Thanks for the explanation Mark (right on the money as per usual;) although
AIUI, by reading various newsgroups, digital (at least ATSC) doesn't appear
to work too well at lower VHF frequencies, does the same apply to DVB-T?

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 11:59, Rick wrote:

Thanks for the explanation Mark (right on the money as per usual;)
although AIUI, by reading various newsgroups, digital (at least ATSC)
doesn't appear to work too well at lower VHF frequencies, does the same
apply to DVB-T?

I don't know, never played with VHF reception of DVB-T. A colleague of
mine has though, no particular problem, and you can get away with using
'rabbit ears' he told me :-)

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:19:29 +0000, Mark Carver wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

Some people live in areas without any terrestrial digital because it can't
be fitted in before switch over without compromising existing analogue
relays.

Of course what they need to do is figure out what type of receiver they
would like and then, before the rush and if they can, go and play with it
somewhere that they can get reception just to make sure it is what they
want.
--
Phil Cook

DSO question
 

Mark wrote:

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

I've been looking closely at the issue of the 'analogue' rump -- the
people who are still using analogue exclusively as DSO approaches -- in
an East Midlands town, and I'm actually struggling to find any
candidates! I think it's something like 1%, six months before DSO.
However, if you ask people, quite a few will say they need to get a
digital box, yet it turns out that they are using an IDTV. If the
official figure of 93 - 97% is based on asking people rather than
actually looking at their TV equipment, that's why it's wrong.

On a different job I recently had people telling me that they had Sky or
cable, yet it turned out that they had DTT. And one gentleman had a very
nice HDR but was unaware that he could record programmes on it.

And a local businessman recently paid me two bottles of decent wine to
go round and 'empty' his HD HDR.

Bill

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:19:29 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the transmission
aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building is more akin to
plumbing. So to connect up the new high power DTT transmitters there's a
lot of mechanical work involved. Of course a lot is prep'ed before hand,
but even so there's an hour or two of frantic effort to switch the
feeders over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation (analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those, but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit overnight.

Thanks for the post. I don't quite understand why new aeriels are
required though.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

DSO question
 

Mark Carver wrote:

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation (analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those, but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit overnight.

On certain days this year I will need to visit 30 communal TV systems to
replace channel filters.

Bill

DSO question
 

Mark Carver wrote:

Also, the existing high power analogue transmission aerials and feeders,
are unsuitable for 6 high power DTT muxes, so they've needed to be
replaced at just about all of the 50 main stations. In some cases
(Rowridge, Black Hill, Caldbeck) completely new masts have had to be
constructed.

Sutton C?

Bill

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 14:29, Mark wrote:

Thanks for the post. I don't quite understand why new aeriels are
required though.

You can get some very high voltages produced with the sort of power
levels 6 x COFDM DTT muxes produce, far higher AIUI than 4 x analogue
transmissions, despite the peak power levels for analogue being higher
than the mean power for DTT, so new aerials are required.

Also some of the analogue aerial stacks are over 40 years old.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 14:39, Bill Wright wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:

Also, the existing high power analogue transmission aerials and
feeders, are unsuitable for 6 high power DTT muxes, so they've needed
to be replaced at just about all of the 50 main stations. In some
cases (Rowridge, Black Hill, Caldbeck) completely new masts have had
to be constructed.

Sutton C?

No, just a temporary mast to maintain services while the permanent one
was significantly restyled. Same happened at Wenvoe.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 13:57, Phil Cook wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:19:29 +0000, Mark Carver wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

Some people live in areas without any terrestrial digital because it can't
be fitted in before switch over without compromising existing analogue
relays.

Of course what they need to do is figure out what type of receiver they
would like and then, before the rush and if they can, go and play with it
somewhere that they can get reception just to make sure it is what they
want.

I fully agree with your sentiments, don't get me wrong, I don't endorse
the way UK DSO has been organised. The matter of people with no DTT
reception until DSO has not been addressed properly, after 12 years 'the
authorities' are still paranoid about DTT causing interference to
analogue reception, to the extent where it's holding back benefits for
'the greater good'.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

Mark Carver wrote:
On 20/01/2011 14:39, Bill Wright wrote:
Mark Carver wrote:

Also, the existing high power analogue transmission aerials and
feeders, are unsuitable for 6 high power DTT muxes, so they've needed
to be replaced at just about all of the 50 main stations. In some
cases (Rowridge, Black Hill, Caldbeck) completely new masts have had
to be constructed.

Sutton C?

No, just a temporary mast to maintain services while the permanent one
was significantly restyled. Same happened at Wenvoe.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Bill

DSO question
 

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

I've been looking closely at the issue of the 'analogue' rump -- the
people who are still using analogue exclusively as DSO approaches -- in an
East Midlands town, and I'm actually struggling to find any candidates! I
think it's something like 1%, six months before DSO. However, if you ask
people, quite a few will say they need to get a digital box, yet it turns
out that they are using an IDTV. If the official figure of 93 - 97% is
based on asking people rather than actually looking at their TV equipment,
that's why it's wrong.

On a different job I recently had people telling me that they had Sky or
cable, yet it turned out that they had DTT. And one gentleman had a very
nice HDR but was unaware that he could record programmes on it.

And a local businessman recently paid me two bottles of decent wine to go
round and 'empty' his HD HDR.



I couldn't think of a single person using analogue, years before Mendip went
DSO.

DSO question
 

Mark Carver wrote:

I fully agree with your sentiments, don't get me wrong, I don't endorse
the way UK DSO has been organised. The matter of people with no DTT
reception until DSO has not been addressed properly, after 12 years 'the
authorities' are still paranoid about DTT causing interference to
analogue reception, to the extent where it's holding back benefits for
'the greater good'.

Hxxxxxxxxn and Cxxxxxxxl.

Bill

DSO question
 

Rick wrote:

I couldn't think of a single person using analogue, years before Mendip
went DSO.

I came across a bloke in a nice house with five of them living in it,
and they had analogue only, and the C5 was obliterated by the VCR RF
output. He was a total nutter though, and I think the kids were living
for the day when they could move out.

Bill

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:31:32 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

Cxxxxxxxl.

:-) I'd have thought it normal to see Hxxxxxxxxxh and Bxxxxxx Lxxx
depending on whether you prefer S6 or S2, but why Cxxxxxxxl for S10?

--
Phil Cook

DSO question
 

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:

I couldn't think of a single person using analogue, years before Mendip
went DSO.

I came across a bloke in a nice house with five of them living in it, and
they had analogue only, and the C5 was obliterated by the VCR RF output.
He was a total nutter though, and I think the kids were living for the day
when they could move out.


I've been out of the trade now for a number of years Bill, however I still
occasionally keep in touch with the local branch of one of the largest
aerial wholesalers in the country, apparently since DSO the aerial side of
things have died a death and according to friends in the business it's
mainly only the lower power COM muxes that still provide them with any
aerial work, that, retuning, extra outlets etc, however, without wishing to
sound too pessimistic, I reckon after mid 2012 even that work will
eventually taper off.
I'm still amazed by the coverage now the PSB multiplexes are on full power,
I pick up rock solid (BBC) reception on the side of a group C/D aerial from
a group A transmitter (Stockland Hill) located around 50 miles away, back in
the seventies with a masthead amplifier and the correct roof mounted aerial
I could receive just about watchable Westward ITV analogue, until they built
an office block in the town centre and it then became unwatchable, of course
it was much more exciting getting out of region ITV programmes back then;)

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 11:19, Mark Carver wrote:
.............
As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation (analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those, but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit overnight.

As I discovered, in helping someone on another forum, there is at least
one relay who's analogue and DTT frequencies are virtually the same.
Consequentially the DTT transmitters will not be switched on until
analogue is switched off. To compound the issue the Linnet Valley relay
is a fill-in for the west of Bury St. Edmunds where DTT is, currently,
impossible!

Richard

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:44:28 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 11:29, Rick wrote:

I still find it puzzling why it takes this country a total of five years
to complete something that most other countries seem to accomplish
overnight.

We've got a very extensive UHF network, of 1154 transmitters, which
carried (before DSO started) 4 analogue services. The other extreme is
the Netherlands that has a total network of about 30 transmitters.

Not counting Luxy (overnight, 3tx?) or Liechtenstein then :-)

--
Old anti-spam address cmylod at despammed dot com appears broke
So back to cmylod at bigfoot dot com

DSO question
 

"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2011 10:13, Mark wrote:
Can anyone tell me *why* there is a two-week gap between phase
1 and
phase 2 of DSO? i.e. Why not do it all at the same time?

It's a good question. I've been told it's to allow for people
who, (for whatever reason) haven't equipped themselves with a
Freeview box in time, not to be left with nothing to watch.
They still have BBC 1, ITV, and C4 analogue for a fortnight,
while they sort themselves out. It also reduces the workload on
Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do overnight, it's
spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Interestingly however, the Channel Islands were done in one big
step over night, and also interestingly there was no DTT
service at all there until DSO, so everybody who still wanted
terrestrial reception had to buy a box. I suspect because the
CI didn't have Freeview until last year, use and penetration of
Sky and Freesat is much higher ?





The problems with the CIs was French TV. They had to wait until
channels were cleared.

As for the two weeks apart, yes it is to make sure people have
got digi boxes - if BBC2 (or in some cases ITV) disappears they
will sit up and take notice.

At DSO there is a lot of work to do on main stations and larger
relays. Doing one in advance does help with workload, but the
main reason is practicality. It allows one channel of analogue
kit to be removed (on the larger relays) so that the DTTV racks
can be put in their final resting places amongst other things. It
also gives time for the telemetry to be tested - the demands of
the broadcasters in terms of how quickly any station must notify
of a fault and how quickly Arqiva must respond are frightening.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

DSO question
 

"Mark Carver" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for
years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already
done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do
anything until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they
have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do
for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a
switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the
transmission aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building
is more akin to plumbing. So to connect up the new high power
DTT transmitters there's a lot of mechanical work involved. Of
course a lot is prep'ed before hand, but even so there's an
hour or two of frantic effort to switch the feeders over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO
photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation
(analogue and DTT) transposers are installed in the months
leading up to DSO. On DSO night it is more or less a flick of a
switch at most of those, but of course in some areas there are
several dozen to visit overnight.

--

Well, nearly.

On the small relays a very clever transposer is used. If it picks
up analogue on a given channel it will transpose to a different
programmed channel and power.

When the analogue goes off it shuts down.

When the signal comes back in digital on the same or a different
pre-programmed channel the transposer comes back to life and
rebroadcasts at whatever power and on whatever channel is set in
digital. Unless a unit fails there is no need to visit the site
until the next day or two to take it off for a short time to do
the spectrum plots.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

DSO question
 

On Jan 20, 2:27*pm, Mark Carver wrote:
On 20/01/2011 11:59, Rick wrote:
although AIUI, by reading various newsgroups, digital (at least ATSC)
doesn't appear to work too well at lower VHF frequencies, does the same
apply to DVB-T?

I don't know, never played with VHF reception of DVB-T. A colleague of
mine has though, no particular problem, and you can get away with using
'rabbit ears' he told me :-)
--
Mark

The US is also using ATSC around and above our
VHF band I frequencies (54 -89 MHz). Reflections incl
sporadic E layer, man made noise, very large yet low gain
aerials - it is difficult and ATSC is even more than
DVB-T based on an (mostly wrong) AGWN assumption. :(
(ATSC is very outdated).

The VHF channels allocated for DTT in ITU regiaon 1 in
Geneva 2006 are all in VHF band III 174-230 MHz (Ch 5-12).

DTT in VHF Band III works nicely in Finland, Sweden
and Germany. It is also used in Italy.
The main problem with DTT in VHF band III is the need
for an extra VHF aerial. This is one reason Germany is
moving avay from DTT in band III, I guess the DAB lobby
was also against´DTT using VHF,

Sweden could not get more UHF channels in its border areas
so in order to enable a 7th mux, they uses UHF inland
and in the north, while VHF band III is used near Norway,
Denmark, Germany, Poland and the Baltic contries.

60 % of all households do not need a VHF aerial and only
40 % of households will need a VHF aerial.

Lars :)

DSO question
 

On Jan 20, 4:04*pm, Mark Carver wrote:
On 20/01/2011 14:29, Mark wrote:

Thanks for the post. *I don't quite understand why new aeriels are
required though.

You can get some very high voltages produced with the sort of power
levels 6 x COFDM DTT muxes produce, far higher AIUI than 4 x analogue
transmissions, despite the peak power levels for analogue being higher
than the mean power for DTT, so new aerials are required.

The Peak to Average Power Ratio - PAPR - is one of the bigger
problems with COFDM signals forcing bigger TX power amps to
maintain linear amplification. A bigger amps is much less efficient.

But I am a bit surprised that this is a TX antenna problem too?

DVB-T2 has the option to not use a few af the carriers for data,
but modulate these few carriers with a signal that can reduce the
powerpeak. (this is called tone reservation)
It is , however, not used in the UK - AFAIK.

Also some of the analogue aerial stacks are over 40 years old.

No arguments here.

I guess directional changes in the TX antennas has forced some
changes ?
and several antennas are moving from grouped to wideband!

Lars :)

DSO question
 

Rick wrote:

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:

I couldn't think of a single person using analogue, years before
Mendip went DSO.

I came across a bloke in a nice house with five of them living in it,
and they had analogue only, and the C5 was obliterated by the VCR RF
output. He was a total nutter though, and I think the kids were living
for the day when they could move out.


I've been out of the trade now for a number of years Bill, however I
still occasionally keep in touch with the local branch of one of the
largest aerial wholesalers in the country, apparently since DSO the
aerial side of things have died a death and according to friends in the
business it's mainly only the lower power COM muxes that still provide
them with any aerial work, that, retuning, extra outlets etc, however,
without wishing to sound too pessimistic, I reckon after mid 2012 even
that work will eventually taper off.
I'm still amazed by the coverage now the PSB multiplexes are on full
power, I pick up rock solid (BBC) reception on the side of a group C/D
aerial from a group A transmitter (Stockland Hill) located around 50
miles away, back in the seventies with a masthead amplifier and the
correct roof mounted aerial I could receive just about watchable
Westward ITV analogue, until they built an office block in the town
centre and it then became unwatchable, of course it was much more
exciting getting out of region ITV programmes back then;)

Yes, I think the power of the post DSO-transmitters is far too high.
Apart from CCI issues I can receive Winter Hill here, yet in the
analogue days it was a barely discernible signal.

Bill

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:29:18 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:19:29 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the transmission
aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building is more akin to
plumbing. So to connect up the new high power DTT transmitters there's a
lot of mechanical work involved. Of course a lot is prep'ed before hand,
but even so there's an hour or two of frantic effort to switch the
feeders over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation (analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those, but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit overnight.

Thanks for the post. I don't quite understand why new aeriels are
required though.

A digital TV needs a digital aerial. We have discussed this
previously :-)

DSO question
 

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:29:18 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:19:29 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on
for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have
already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do
anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they
have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do
for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a
switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the
transmission
aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building is more
akin to
plumbing. So to connect up the new high power DTT transmitters
there's a
lot of mechanical work involved. Of course a lot is prep'ed
before hand,
but even so there's an hour or two of frantic effort to switch
the
feeders over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO
photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation
(analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to
DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those,
but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit
overnight.

Thanks for the post. I don't quite understand why new aeriels
are
required though.

A digital TV needs a digital aerial. We have discussed this
previously :-)



I think he's talking about the transmitter aerials? We all know
you need a digital Rx aerial to get DTTV!

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 19:26, Woody wrote:
"Mark wrote in message

Interestingly however, the Channel Islands were done in one big
step over night, and also interestingly there was no DTT
service at all there until DSO, so everybody who still wanted
terrestrial reception had to buy a box. I suspect because the
CI didn't have Freeview until last year, use and penetration of
Sky and Freesat is much higher ?

The problems with the CIs was French TV. They had to wait until
channels were cleared.

Nothing needed clearing AIUI, in fact the DSO date was brought forward
at relatively short notice from 2013 to Nov 2010. Fremont Point is using
the same allocations for the three muxes it transmits, that were used
for analogue.

As for the two weeks apart, yes it is to make sure people have
got digi boxes - if BBC2 (or in some cases ITV) disappears they
will sit up and take notice.

It's always BBC 2 that vanishes at DSO 1, but there's sometimes a
reshuffle if PSB 1 has been given an analogue allocation for one of the
other analogues. For instance at Angus PSB 1 was allocated Ch 60, the
home of STV. So BBC 2 closed on Ch 63 at DSO, and STV took over Ch 63
until DSO 2.


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 19:31, Woody wrote:

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation
(analogue and DTT) transposers are installed in the months
leading up to DSO. On DSO night it is more or less a flick of a
switch at most of those, but of course in some areas there are


Well, nearly.

On the small relays a very clever transposer is used. If it picks
up analogue on a given channel it will transpose to a different
programmed channel and power.

When the analogue goes off it shuts down.

When the signal comes back in digital on the same or a different
pre-programmed channel the transposer comes back to life and
rebroadcasts at whatever power and on whatever channel is set in
digital. Unless a unit fails there is no need to visit the site
until the next day or two to take it off for a short time to do
the spectrum plots.

Interesting, that's what I originally thought, but an Arqiva engineer
told me last month that a visit is still required on DSO night. Whatever
is actually the case, relay stations are comparatively trivial to deal
with.


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

On 20/01/2011 19:31, Woody wrote:

When the signal comes back in digital on the same or a different
pre-programmed channel the transposer comes back to life and
rebroadcasts at whatever power and on whatever channel is set in
digital. Unless a unit fails there is no need to visit the site
until the next day or two to take it off for a short time to do
the spectrum plots.

No that can't be right, look at the timelines in these Arqiva documents
between the parent swiching, and the last relay coming on line,
typically 12 hours.

http://www.arqiva.com/corporate/press/archive/2010/2010-10-20%20-%20Digital%20Switch%20Over%20completed%20for%20Ros emarkie%20transmitter%20group.pdf

http://www.arqiva.com/corporate/press/archive/2010/2010-10-27%20-%20Digital%20Switch%20Over%20completed%20for%20Tor osay%20transmitter%20group.pdf


Also the relay timelines on page 2 he-

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/transmitternetwork/tools__and__resources/almanac/installer_newsletters_2009_pdfs/STV_North_Installers_1_M_O_Angus_FINAL.pdf

All of those documents imply that the relay sites require visits on DSO
night/next day ?


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

http://www.paras.org.uk/

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:41:51 +0000, Scott
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:29:18 +0000, Mark
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:19:29 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 10:58, Mark wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 10:37:23 +0000, Mark Carver

Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

Apparently some people, despite months of nagging, don't do anything
until the event has happened, (and then complain !)

It also
reduces the workload on Arqiva with the amount of work they have to do
overnight, it's spread over two nights, 14 days apart.

Good point. I'm not sure how much work would be left to do for the
actual switchover. Won't it be a matter of just flicking a switch or
two?

No ! The old analogue transmitters are connected to the transmission
aerials with 6in feeders, that within the building is more akin to
plumbing. So to connect up the new high power DTT transmitters there's a
lot of mechanical work involved. Of course a lot is prep'ed before hand,
but even so there's an hour or two of frantic effort to switch the
feeders over.

You get some idea of what's involved from Stockland Hill's DSO photos

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/stockla.../dso/index.php

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation (analogue and
DTT) transposers are installed in the months leading up to DSO. On DSO
night it is more or less a flick of a switch at most of those, but of
course in some areas there are several dozen to visit overnight.

Thanks for the post. I don't quite understand why new aeriels are
required though.

A digital TV needs a digital aerial. We have discussed this
previously :-)

I upgraded my aeriel to digital by sticking some gloves on it. ;-)
(Now it has "digits").
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:19:59 +0000, Mark Carver
wrote:

On 20/01/2011 19:31, Woody wrote:

As far as relay stations are concerned, dual operation
(analogue and DTT) transposers are installed in the months
leading up to DSO. On DSO night it is more or less a flick of a
switch at most of those, but of course in some areas there are


Well, nearly.

On the small relays a very clever transposer is used. If it picks
up analogue on a given channel it will transpose to a different
programmed channel and power.

When the analogue goes off it shuts down.

When the signal comes back in digital on the same or a different
pre-programmed channel the transposer comes back to life and
rebroadcasts at whatever power and on whatever channel is set in
digital. Unless a unit fails there is no need to visit the site
until the next day or two to take it off for a short time to do
the spectrum plots.

Interesting, that's what I originally thought, but an Arqiva engineer
told me last month that a visit is still required on DSO night. Whatever
is actually the case, relay stations are comparatively trivial to deal
with.

I found it strange that the DSO booklet that came through the door
recently said that relay stations take longer to switch over and may
not be available until the day after switchover.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

DSO question
 

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:03:58 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

Rick wrote:

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:

I couldn't think of a single person using analogue, years before
Mendip went DSO.

I came across a bloke in a nice house with five of them living in it,
and they had analogue only, and the C5 was obliterated by the VCR RF
output. He was a total nutter though, and I think the kids were living
for the day when they could move out.


I've been out of the trade now for a number of years Bill, however I
still occasionally keep in touch with the local branch of one of the
largest aerial wholesalers in the country, apparently since DSO the
aerial side of things have died a death and according to friends in the
business it's mainly only the lower power COM muxes that still provide
them with any aerial work, that, retuning, extra outlets etc, however,
without wishing to sound too pessimistic, I reckon after mid 2012 even
that work will eventually taper off.
I'm still amazed by the coverage now the PSB multiplexes are on full
power, I pick up rock solid (BBC) reception on the side of a group C/D
aerial from a group A transmitter (Stockland Hill) located around 50
miles away, back in the seventies with a masthead amplifier and the
correct roof mounted aerial I could receive just about watchable
Westward ITV analogue, until they built an office block in the town
centre and it then became unwatchable, of course it was much more
exciting getting out of region ITV programmes back then;)

Yes, I think the power of the post DSO-transmitters is far too high.
Apart from CCI issues I can receive Winter Hill here, yet in the
analogue days it was a barely discernible signal.

I had to fit an attenuator for DTT and that's before the power is
boosted. God knows what will happen after DSO.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

DSO question
 

On Jan 20, 11:59*am, "Rick" wrote:
"Mark Carver" wrote in message

...

On 20/01/2011 11:29, Rick wrote:

In other countries the high power DTT services have been added alongside
analogue, because those countries have enough spectrum to dual operate.
Remember VHF is used as well as UHF in some countries, we don't have that
luxury here, as we did for the 405 to 625 switchover for instance.

Thanks for the explanation Mark (right on the money as per usual;)

Yes. Another important point is that, in many countries, terrestrial
reception is used by fewer people than satellite or cable. In some
countries it's only used by a tiny minority. Whereas in the UK we have
~24m households, ~10m using satellite, ~4m using cable. The leaves
~10m reliant on terrestrial - plus some of the satellite and cable
homes will also be using Freeview on another set.

Cheers,
David.

DSO question
 

On Jan 20, 2:18*pm, Bill Wright wrote:
Mark wrote:
Judging from the amount of nagging that has been going on for years I
would have thought that everyone who cares would have already done
something about it well before switchover ;-)

I've been looking closely at the issue of the 'analogue' rump -- the
people who are still using analogue exclusively as DSO approaches -- in
an East Midlands town, and I'm actually struggling to find any
candidates! I think it's something like 1%, six months before DSO.

My Mum! She has a fairly decent waltham/belmont diplexed aerial + mast
head amp. Three TVs (main one knackered, but still in use). DVD
recorder she doesn't know how to use to play, never mind record.

I've shown her our freesat set-up, but I think she thinks it looks a
bit complicated. A digital TV connected to her aerial now will receive
two lots of BBC channels and no ITV channels. ITV analogue wouldn't
fill a widescreen and she doesn't want stretchy-vision. Would probably
go for a plasma, but don't want a year's 4x3 viewing to burn into the
screen! Post switchover she'll get all the channels she wants with the
existing aerials AFAICT, so she'll probably get a new TV during the
switchover itself.

Oh, and I have a colleague who reuses to buy a new TV until his
existing one breaks. Simple as that. Not spending a penny until he has
to. Mind you, he didn't even take a free freeview box that just needed
a £5 replacement remote control. Some people aren't interested.


It's a shame Freesat wasn't finished (all SD and HD PSB channels at
least) well before DSO, because I think that route would have saved a
lot of people a lot of hassle. But then, we wouldn't have needed DSO
then, would we? ;-)

Cheers
David.

DSO question
 

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 04:36:20 -0800 (PST),
"
wrote:

Oh, and I have a colleague who reuses to buy a new TV until his
existing one breaks. Simple as that. Not spending a penny until he has
to. Mind you, he didn't even take a free freeview box that just needed
a £5 replacement remote control. Some people aren't interested.

It's a good philosopy to only replace things when they break. It's
one of the failings of our consumer society that we continually
upgrade and chuck working products away.

wrt DTT, then people who aren't interested in the extra channels have
little to gain from "going digital" while they still have an analogue
service.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.