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Engineers are undervalued in the UK
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Engineers are undervalued in the UK
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Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On 28/09/2010 12:16, tony sayer wrote:
In .com, scribeth thus http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._The_New_Age_o f_the_Engineer/ "This content doesn't appear to be working try again later" "Bloody engineers, can't they get anything right?" -- Adrian C |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On 28 Sep, 01:45, "
wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._Understood_Th... The same old mantra no doubt. Engineers - proper engineers with degrees - have been complaining for years about the misuse of the term. In my youth my uncles, who were mainly machine tool operators, were called engineers. Nowadays the man who fixes your washing machine or (dare I say it in this group?) the man who installs your TV aerial is also called an engineer. Engineer should be a protected term, like doctor or barrister. |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
In message
, MartinR writes On 28 Sep, 01:45, " wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._Understood_Th... The same old mantra no doubt. Engineers - proper engineers with degrees - have been complaining for years about the misuse of the term. In my youth my uncles, who were mainly machine tool operators, were called engineers. Nowadays the man who fixes your washing machine or (dare I say it in this group?) the man who installs your TV aerial is also called an engineer. Engineer should be a protected term, like doctor or barrister. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOtoujYOWw0 or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlJsPa6UwcM&feature=related plus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXGDRrkaRgU&feature=related -- Ian |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
MartinR wrote:
Engineer should be a protected term, like doctor or barrister. Actually in the UK, doctor isn't a protected title http://www.hpc-uk.org/aboutregistrat...otectedtitles/ |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 05:21:47 -0700 (PDT), MartinR wrote:
On 28 Sep, 01:45, " wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._Understood_Th... The same old mantra no doubt. Engineers - proper engineers with degrees - have been complaining for years about the misuse of the term. In my youth my uncles, who were mainly machine tool operators, were called engineers. Nowadays the man who fixes your washing machine or (dare I say it in this group?) the man who installs your TV aerial is also called an engineer. Engineer should be a protected term, like doctor or barrister. How about architect? A proper architect does a long (7 year?) degree + qualification course. Yet any computer kiddie with a flip-chart and a book of jargon calls themselves a systems architect. Same with me. Officially I consult with companies - that makes me a consultant. However, say that in a hospital and feathers would fly. In most of industry I'm known as a contractor, but they're also the people with muddy boots (c.f. me in a suit+tie) who dig up the roads. I think the only real solution is to qualify the err, qualification with "chartered" or somesuch, to indicate a degree of professional conduct and standards of work that a profession should offer. -- http://www.thisreallyismyhost.99k.or...6461210656.php |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
" wrote in message
... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._the_Engineer/ Still waiting for HG Wells "shape of things to come" to come true The military and bureaucrats still rule, the time for us technocrats has still to come Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:06:07 +0100, "Steve Terry"
wrote: " wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._the_Engineer/ Still waiting for HG Wells "shape of things to come" to come true The military and bureaucrats still rule, the time for us technocrats has still to come Don't hold your breath. The problem for the technocrats is that they provide tools for other people to use. They empower the military, bureaucrats and ordinary people. -- Peter Duncanson (in uk.tech.digital-tv) |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On 28/09/2010 16:54, pete wrote:
How about architect? A proper architect does a long (7 year?) degree + qualification course. Yet any computer kiddie with a flip-chart and a book of jargon calls themselves a systems architect. Same with me. Officially I consult with companies - that makes me a consultant. However, say that in a hospital and feathers would fly. In most of industry I'm known as a contractor, but they're also the people with muddy boots (c.f. me in a suit+tie) who dig up the roads. I think the only real solution is to qualify the err, qualification with "chartered" or somesuch, to indicate a degree of professional conduct and standards of work that a profession should offer. Architects are usually tagged RIBA or some such. Those post-nominals are controlled by law. Are you going to make sure your next developers are MBCS? Andy |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message
... On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 20:06:07 +0100, "Steve Terry" wrote: " wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._the_Engineer/ Still waiting for HG Wells "shape of things to come" to come true The military and bureaucrats still rule, the time for us technocrats has still to come Don't hold your breath. The problem for the technocrats is that they provide tools for other people to use. They empower the military, bureaucrats and ordinary people. Peter Duncanson Agreed, and computerisation is making it ever easier to empower the military, bureaucrats and ordinary people. Also technocrats Egos aren't inflated enough to want to take power, making us turkeys voting for Christmas. Bob Oppenheimer was probably the first to realise that after giving the morons in the US military the Bomb. Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
"Steve Terry" wrote in message ... " wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._the_Engineer/ Still waiting for HG Wells "shape of things to come" to come true The military and bureaucrats still rule, the time for us technocrats has still to come Wasn't this country ruled by an industrial chemist a while back? -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On 28 Sep, 01:45, "
wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._Understood_Th... The creeping mis-use of language (mostly unintentionally) coupled with the frankly rubbish communication abilities of the average person. It's somewhat frightening how powerful the simple use of language can be. |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
"Graham." wrote in message
... "Steve Terry" wrote in message ... " wrote in message ... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._the_Engineer/ Still waiting for HG Wells "shape of things to come" to come true The military and bureaucrats still rule, the time for us technocrats has still to come Wasn't this country ruled by an industrial chemist a while back? Graham. The way she treated Inmos showed she hated anything technical Steve Terry -- "I would like to plead for my right to investigate natural phenomena without having guns pointed at me. I also ask for the right to be wrong without being hanged for it." - Wilhelm Reich, November 1947 |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 05:21:47 -0700 (PDT), MartinR
wrote: On 28 Sep, 01:45, " wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._Understood_Th... The same old mantra no doubt. Engineers - proper engineers with degrees - have been complaining for years about the misuse of the term. In my youth my uncles, who were mainly machine tool operators, were called engineers. Nowadays the man who fixes your washing machine or (dare I say it in this group?) the man who installs your TV aerial is also called an engineer. Engineer should be a protected term, like doctor or barrister. I can still recall my mother's disappointment when I said I was going to be an engineer. She took it that I was going to work on steam railway engines (not that that would have been a bad job mind you). -- AnthonyL |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
In article , AnthonyL
scribeth thus On Tue, 28 Sep 2010 05:21:47 -0700 (PDT), MartinR wrote: On 28 Sep, 01:45, " wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._Understood_Th... The same old mantra no doubt. Engineers - proper engineers with degrees - have been complaining for years about the misuse of the term. In my youth my uncles, who were mainly machine tool operators, were called engineers. Nowadays the man who fixes your washing machine or (dare I say it in this group?) the man who installs your TV aerial is also called an engineer. Engineer should be a protected term, like doctor or barrister. I can still recall my mother's disappointment when I said I was going to be an engineer. She took it that I was going to work on steam railway engines (not that that would have been a bad job mind you). Thats where ex engineers work after retirement;).. I remember Derrick Scotland of Audio lab fame and he was an engineer if ever there was one of the can do for 5 bob what any fool can do for a quid standard .. once said that the answer to the engineer problem was the Universities and people's attitude towards them in that, tell anyone that your Son's off to Cambridge to study Law, Medicine or accounting then fine .. all's as it ought be but mention Engineering then its all despair and ... .... "where did we go wrong with our Son" ... That was in 1982 .. I rather doubt anything's changed since.. -- Tony Sayer |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:53:29 +0100
tony sayer wrote: tell anyone that your Son's off to Cambridge to study Law, Medicine or accounting then fine .. all's as it ought be but mention Engineering then its all despair and ... .... "where did we go wrong with our Son" ... Depends on the family. If the parents are thick arts graduates themselves then perhaps, but in general I think engineers are well respected in this country by the general populous, if not by the (generally arts grad) ruling classes. B2003 |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
Alan Whit wrote:
They haven't a clue about Engineers. I agree. Hardly anyone in the general populace understands the difference between an Engineer and a technician. Incidentally, I wonder if "engineer" (without the capital) is actually an accepted job title. Anyone know? SteveT |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On 30/09/2010 18:38, Steve Thackery wrote:
Alan Whit wrote: They haven't a clue about Engineers. I agree. Hardly anyone in the general populace understands the difference between an Engineer and a technician. Incidentally, I wonder if "engineer" (without the capital) is actually an accepted job title. Anyone know? It's in my job title. But then, I'm in software... and I too think Engineers (those who exercise their ingenuity, same root) are undervalued. Peggy can be found on you-tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCRRe72mwwY Andy |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
Andy Champ wrote:
It's in my job title. But then, I'm in software... and I too think Engineers (those who exercise their ingenuity, same root) are undervalued. To be an Engineer-with-a-capital-E don't you have to be a qualified member of one of their professional bodies? Like MIMechE, CEng, etc? SteveT |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
In article ,
Steve Thackery wrote: Andy Champ wrote: It's in my job title. But then, I'm in software... and I too think Engineers (those who exercise their ingenuity, same root) are undervalued. To be an Engineer-with-a-capital-E don't you have to be a qualified member of one of their professional bodies? Like MIMechE, CEng, etc? not in this country - but in Canada, CBC had to change the job title of Chief Engineer to Head of Engineering Department when a "non-qualified" person got the job. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16 |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
"Steve Thackery" wrote in message
... Andy Champ wrote: It's in my job title. But then, I'm in software... and I too think Engineers (those who exercise their ingenuity, same root) are undervalued. To be an Engineer-with-a-capital-E don't you have to be a qualified member of one of their professional bodies? Like MIMechE, CEng, etc? That's to be a Chartered Engineer. -- Max Demian |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
In article ,
wrote: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:53:29 +0100 tony sayer wrote: tell anyone that your Son's off to Cambridge to study Law, Medicine or accounting then fine .. all's as it ought be but mention Engineering then its all despair and ... .... "where did we go wrong with our Son" ... Depends on the family. If the parents are thick arts graduates themselves then perhaps, but in general I think engineers are well respected in this country by the general populous, if not by the (generally arts grad) ruling classes. My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:22:38 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:53:29 +0100 tony sayer wrote: tell anyone that your Son's off to Cambridge to study Law, Medicine or accounting then fine .. all's as it ought be but mention Engineering then its all despair and ... .... "where did we go wrong with our Son" ... Depends on the family. If the parents are thick arts graduates themselves then perhaps, but in general I think engineers are well respected in this country by the general populous, if not by the (generally arts grad) ruling classes. My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] I can't think of any quotable quotes offhand but there is a tendency in the British media to say that scientists are responsible for technological developments. I recall that in 1969 some parts of the British news media referred to scientists as having designed and constructed the rocket and space modules used to get men on to the surface of the moon and back. -- Peter Duncanson (in uk.tech.digital-tv) |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
In article , Peter Duncanson
wrote: On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:22:38 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote: My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] I can't think of any quotable quotes offhand but there is a tendency in the British media to say that scientists are responsible for technological developments. Yes, that is also my impression. There is a general behaviour of confusing 'science' and 'technology', and indeed with the *use* to which a given part of both are put. 'Journalists' seem very prone to this kind of wooly thinking. I recall that in 1969 some parts of the British news media referred to scientists as having designed and constructed the rocket and space modules used to get men on to the surface of the moon and back. In fairness I can understand such confusion as science often is heavily involved with engineering developments, etc. But it does tend to show that the 'media' often have no real grasp of these topics - or have a cynical and lazy attitude to their work and readers/viewers/listeners - or may simply be rushed by employers and their bean-counters whose maxim is "I don't want it good, I want it Thursday". :-) Thus also the liking for 'flashy graphics' and style over content. Plus the predictable way they focus on a few specific areas of 'science'. In a way that takes us back to the attitude of output being produced to be 'sold' rather than to be 'useful' or 'dependable'. Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
Boltar the Bigot wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:53:29 +0100 tony sayer wrote: tell anyone that your Son's off to Cambridge to study Law, Medicine or accounting then fine .. all's as it ought be but mention Engineering then its all despair and ... .... "where did we go wrong with our Son" ... Depends on the family. If the parents are thick arts graduates themselves then perhaps, but in general I think engineers are well respected in this country by the general populous, if not by the (generally arts grad) ruling classes. Yeah, all them dirty arts grads ruling everything. They're a load o' poofs y' know. REAL men are all engineers with hands covered in oil or coal. Btw I heard that, despite all his big talk, Boltar the Bigot isn't actually an engineer, and he secretly loves art too, which is ironic really. Oh, and he's gay. jamie. -- |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. That's because their only source of "education" is the "telly". But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] The latest one I've experienced is for the great unwashed to scream "Aspergers!" whenever I demonstrate even the slightest bit of computer science knowledge. Presumably there must've been some "report" on the "telly" about Aspergers Syndrome recently, which they've managed to remember about 2% of. jamie. -- |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
charles wrote:
not in this country - but in Canada, CBC had to change the job title of Chief Engineer to Head of Engineering Department when a "non-qualified" person got the job. At the opposite end of the scale, I think Italy's RAI is the only 'state broadcaster' in the world, where the Director of Engineering became the DG ? And that was 15 years ago now. -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. www.paras.org.uk |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
In article ,
Mark Carver wrote: charles wrote: not in this country - but in Canada, CBC had to change the job title of Chief Engineer to Head of Engineering Department when a "non-qualified" person got the job. At the opposite end of the scale, I think Italy's RAI is the only 'state broadcaster' in the world, where the Director of Engineering became the DG ? And that was 15 years ago now. I think you will find the same thing happened in Nigeria - but that was probably 30+ years ago -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16 |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On 30/09/2010 23:11, Steve Thackery wrote:
Andy Champ wrote: It's in my job title. But then, I'm in software... and I too think Engineers (those who exercise their ingenuity, same root) are undervalued. To be an Engineer-with-a-capital-E don't you have to be a qualified member of one of their professional bodies? Like MIMechE, CEng, etc? Engineer isn't a controlled term. The post-nominals are - like the architect's RIBA, the MIMechE and C.Eng you mention, and others like MBCS. Even those of us who have bachelor's degrees and get to stick BA or BSc after our names. I think there are legal penalties for misuse; certainly claiming when you haven't is fraud. (so Google tells me) Andy |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message
... On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:22:38 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:53:29 +0100 tony sayer wrote: tell anyone that your Son's off to Cambridge to study Law, Medicine or accounting then fine .. all's as it ought be but mention Engineering then its all despair and ... .... "where did we go wrong with our Son" ... Depends on the family. If the parents are thick arts graduates themselves then perhaps, but in general I think engineers are well respected in this country by the general populous, if not by the (generally arts grad) ruling classes. My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] I can't think of any quotable quotes offhand but there is a tendency in the British media to say that scientists are responsible for technological developments. I recall that in 1969 some parts of the British news media referred to scientists as having designed and constructed the rocket and space modules used to get men on to the surface of the moon and back. So why so people talk about 'rocket science' (usually in the negative) rather than 'rocket engineering'? -- Max Demian |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
In article , Jim Lesurf
writes In article , Peter Duncanson wrote: On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:22:38 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote: My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] I can't think of any quotable quotes offhand but there is a tendency in the British media to say that scientists are responsible for technological developments. Yes, that is also my impression. There is a general behaviour of confusing 'science' and 'technology', Not at the BBC though. Their web site separates "technology" from "science" which is linked with "environment", reflecting BBC policy that real scientists are all paid up members of the IPCC. ;-) -- Kennedy Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed; A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's ****ed. Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying) |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 12:27:16 +0100, Kennedy McEwen
wrote: In article , Jim Lesurf writes In article , Peter Duncanson wrote: On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:22:38 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote: My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] I can't think of any quotable quotes offhand but there is a tendency in the British media to say that scientists are responsible for technological developments. Yes, that is also my impression. There is a general behaviour of confusing 'science' and 'technology', Not at the BBC though. Their web site separates "technology" from "science" I wonder who they think is responsible for the creation (design) of "technology", scientists or engineers? which is linked with "environment", reflecting BBC policy that real scientists are all paid up members of the IPCC. ;-) -- Peter Duncanson (in uk.tech.digital-tv) |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:18:15 +0100, Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Sat, 2 Oct 2010 12:27:16 +0100, Kennedy McEwen wrote: In article , Jim Lesurf writes In article , Peter Duncanson wrote: On Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:22:38 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote: My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] I can't think of any quotable quotes offhand but there is a tendency in the British media to say that scientists are responsible for technological developments. Yes, that is also my impression. There is a general behaviour of confusing 'science' and 'technology', Not at the BBC though. Their web site separates "technology" from "science" True, but such is their scorn for technology that it's hidden in the depths of their website. You have to go down 3 layers to get to Technology News and they don't even think it's worth letting people have on their customised front page. I wonder who they think is responsible for the creation (design) of "technology", scientists or engineers? I doubt most ordinary people are aware of or care about any distinction. In their minds the film/TV cliches are true: they all wear white coats, have no social skills, mess around with test tubes full of coloured liquids and would accidentally blow up the world unless kept firmly under control. In this country none of the media, and consequently the public, have any appreciation of intangible or abstract (in the non-artistic sense) knowledge or assets. I don't know if this is due to bias, genuine ignorance or simply pandering to horde. Whatever the reason it's probably the single biggest weakness that we, as a country, have. -- http://www.thisreallyismyhost.99k.or...3513813283.php |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... My impression is that the general (non science/engineering) population may well have a high regard for Engineers like Brunel. But are generally unware of any of the engineering that goes into modern items. Things like mobile phones or digital TV are simple taken as being 'magic' produced by fairies in a cave far away. Anyone who actually understands such things is assumed to be 'odd'... mind you, they may have a point, there. :-] I don't think I would mind too much about being described as working in a cave. Much of the work I did on Digital TV was done in windowless rooms full of equipment that could have quite easily been caves. However while 'odd' is debatable I really wouldn't want to be described as a fairy :). As part of the reorganisation that culminated in the closure of BBC R&D at Kingswood and the migrations of survivors (of which I wasn't) to London & Manchester was having our job titles changed from "Engineer" to "Technologist". I was very unhappy about this having spent a lot of effort earlier in my career into working up from an apprentice. When I left school at 16 I wanted to be a design engineer and although it took around 15 years I was very proud to get there. Glyn |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember MartinR saying something like: Engineer should be a protected term, like doctor or barrister. Bog off. |
Engineers are undervalued in the UK
On 01/10/2010 23:53, Max Demian wrote:
So why so people talk about 'rocket science' (usually in the negative) rather than 'rocket engineering'? Beats me. Rocket science is pretty easy - throw something hot fast that way and you go this way. That's all. Rocket engineering - getting to do it reliably, for long periods, with minimum fuel, without melting... THAT's hard. Andy |
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