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time delays on dab vs analogue
Hello group,
When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? I listen to R4 before going to work in the morning. At the top of the hour, they have the pips. I have an analogue radio in the bedroom, another one in the bathroom, digital in the front room (freeview), all on at the same time as I'm running round getting ready for work.. and the time gap is very apparent. I'd guess the digital one is 7 seconds late. If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? -- comp.john |
time delays on dab vs analogue
The message
from "comp.john" contains these words: Hello group, When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? I listen to R4 before going to work in the morning. At the top of the hour, they have the pips. I have an analogue radio in the bedroom, another one in the bathroom, digital in the front room (freeview), all on at the same time as I'm running round getting ready for work.. and the time gap is very apparent. I'd guess the digital one is 7 seconds late. If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? Ah! If it were only that simple. -- Regards, John. Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying. The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"comp.john" wrote in message
... Hello group, When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? I listen to R4 before going to work in the morning. At the top of the hour, they have the pips. I have an analogue radio in the bedroom, another one in the bathroom, digital in the front room (freeview), all on at the same time as I'm running round getting ready for work.. and the time gap is very apparent. I'd guess the digital one is 7 seconds late. If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? The number of seconds delay depends on your hardware as well as the transmission. I guess that when (and if) analogue radio transmissions end the BBC will give up the GMT pips. Most people have at least one radio controlled clock in the house. -- Max Demian |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article ,
comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. I listen to R4 before going to work in the morning. At the top of the hour, they have the pips. I have an analogue radio in the bedroom, another one in the bathroom, digital in the front room (freeview), all on at the same time as I'm running round getting ready for work.. and the time gap is very apparent. I'd guess the digital one is 7 seconds late. They will all be different - with DAB being the worst. But two receivers on DAB or FreeView can give different results too. If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? It's a function of all digital that it introduces a delay. Just how much depends on many things. -- *Marathon runners with bad footwear suffer the agony of defeat* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
On 2009-10-19, Max Demian wrote:
The number of seconds delay depends on your hardware as well as the transmission. oh, great :( so the pips are not equivalent on compliant hardware. What's the digital delay on high-end hardware? I guess that when (and if) analogue radio transmissions end the BBC will give up the GMT pips. That's a severe change. Pips have been around as long as radio. Aren't they meant to be accurate to within a second - I mean 7 seconds late then why have them at all. Most people have at least one radio controlled clock in the house. If you mean most people have a computer (ie NTP) then yeah I agree. But not clock as in clock on the wall or bedside clock. Why am I even concerned about this? It's because it seems to be a retrograde step. On analogue, if you have 5 radios of different makes and prices and quality all tuned to the same station, you'd notice little difference when the pips came on, and it's been that way for years. With DAB the difference is vast, comparitively. -- comp.john |
time delays on dab vs analogue
On 2009-10-19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. ....well, yeah :D I should really have read that through, lol. They will all be different - with DAB being the worst. But two receivers on DAB or FreeView can give different results too. yeah, I have 2 DAB-only radios too but these aren't used as often as the analogues. If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? It's a function of all digital that it introduces a delay. Just how much depends on many things. http://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/timelag.html Yeah. No more pips! sniff -- comp.john |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"comp.john" wrote in message
... Hello group, When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? I listen to R4 before going to work in the morning. At the top of the hour, they have the pips. I have an analogue radio in the bedroom, another one in the bathroom, digital in the front room (freeview), all on at the same time as I'm running round getting ready for work.. and the time gap is very apparent. I'd guess the digital one is 7 seconds late. If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? -- comp.john The pips on FM are quire accurate according to my MSF radio clock The pips on any digital service will be delayed. DAB contains a time stamp which a DAB radio may be able to diusplay and which might (ought to!) be more accurate. -- Michael Chare |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. No, clever clogs, that's ********. The BBC could play the pips early so as to make them more-or-less right for DAB. In theory . . . Bill |
time delays on dab vs analogue
comp.john wrote:
On 2009-10-19, Max Demian wrote: The number of seconds delay depends on your hardware as well as the transmission. oh, great :( so the pips are not equivalent on compliant hardware. What's the digital delay on high-end hardware? I don't think there's any correlation between the expence of a particular receiver, and its decoding delay. In short, forget about accurate time from digital broadcast radio or TV, and splash out on one of these:- http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/2551966/c_1/1|category_root|Jewellery+and+watches|14416987/c_2/2|cat_14416987|Clocks+and+clock+radios|14417256/c_3/3|cat_14417256|Wall+clocks|14417259.htm -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. http://www.paras.org.uk/ |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"comp.john" wrote:
On 2009-10-19, Max Demian wrote: Most people have at least one radio controlled clock in the house. If you mean most people have a computer (ie NTP) then yeah I agree. But not clock as in clock on the wall or bedside clock. Google "radio controlled clock". I've an RC kitchen wall clock and two RC alarm clocks. Very cheap: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cadiz-White-.../dp/B000H1QSIU -- Dave Farrance |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article ,
comp.john wrote: That's a severe change. Pips have been around as long as radio. Aren't they meant to be accurate to within a second - I mean 7 seconds late then why have them at all. They're way more accurate than a second on analogue. -- *Oh, what a tangled website we weave when first we practice * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. No, clever clogs, that's ********. The BBC could play the pips early so as to make them more-or-less right for DAB. In theory . . . And go across the end of the preceding prog? Or to avoid this you'd need a long gap between live progs. And of course the pips are usually in between live spots. Not a theory you've thought through, Bill. ;-) Bill -- *I'm really easy to get along with once people learn to worship me Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article ,
Dave Farrance wrote: Google "radio controlled clock". I've an RC kitchen wall clock and two RC alarm clocks. Very cheap: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cadiz-White-.../dp/B000H1QSIU And great for next weekend. ;-) -- *If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote: I'd say that yes, it is all wrong. However, worse is to come. Sometimes when i use my scanner, i can pick up bbc radio talkback for interviews etc, this is quite often some three seconds ahead of the output from my fm tuner, so the time signals on the distribution networks are hardly that accurate either. They certainly are on analogue R4 - as close as I can tell on a radio controlled clock. -- *I can see your point, but I still think you're full of ****. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
Max Demian wrote:
"comp.john" wrote in message ... Hello group, When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? I listen to R4 before going to work in the morning. At the top of the hour, they have the pips. I have an analogue radio in the bedroom, another one in the bathroom, digital in the front room (freeview), all on at the same time as I'm running round getting ready for work.. and the time gap is very apparent. I'd guess the digital one is 7 seconds late. If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? The number of seconds delay depends on your hardware as well as the transmission. I guess that when (and if) analogue radio transmissions end the BBC will give up the GMT pips. Most people have at least one radio controlled clock in the house. Ah, but is that analogue radio or digital? |
time delays on dab vs analogue
Brian Gaff wrote:
Just remember, if the sun goes out, you will not know for 8 minutes. Not really true if you know your relativity theory. :-) -- Chris Green |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
... Max Demian wrote: "comp.john" wrote in message ... Hello group, When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? I listen to R4 before going to work in the morning. At the top of the hour, they have the pips. I have an analogue radio in the bedroom, another one in the bathroom, digital in the front room (freeview), all on at the same time as I'm running round getting ready for work.. and the time gap is very apparent. I'd guess the digital one is 7 seconds late. If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? The number of seconds delay depends on your hardware as well as the transmission. I guess that when (and if) analogue radio transmissions end the BBC will give up the GMT pips. Most people have at least one radio controlled clock in the house. Ah, but is that analogue radio or digital? I kind of expected that smartarse remark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_from_NPL#Protocol Sounds rather digital to me, if it matters. Does anyone know how the analogue clocks adjust when the clocks go back? Do they buzz backwards, or just stop for an hour? Does anyone want to volunteer to stay up this Saturday night? -- Max Demian -- Max Demian |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article ,
Max Demian wrote: "Norman Wells" wrote in message ... Max Demian wrote: Sounds rather digital to me, if it matters. Does anyone know how the analogue clocks adjust when the clocks go back? Do they buzz backwards, or just stop for an hour? most likely go forward for 11 hours. Does anyone want to volunteer to stay up this Saturday night? why not record the event with a camera? -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 |
time delays on dab vs analogue
Max Demian wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message ... Max Demian wrote: If the answer to the accuracy question is analogue, then is this the end of an accurate time signal on BBC radio when analogue transmission ends? When *everything* goes digital, is *everything* going to be 7s later than the actuality? The number of seconds delay depends on your hardware as well as the transmission. I guess that when (and if) analogue radio transmissions end the BBC will give up the GMT pips. Most people have at least one radio controlled clock in the house. Ah, but is that analogue radio or digital? I kind of expected that smartarse remark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_from_NPL#Protocol Sounds rather digital to me, if it matters. Then it'll be late because it apparently depends on your hardware. Does anyone know how the analogue clocks adjust when the clocks go back? If they're anything like the ones I have, the little knob on the back has something to do with it. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:59:09 +0100, Brightside S9 wrote:
It could have "gone out" (fusion ceased) 10^5 to 10^6 years ago. Looking at it won't help, since you can't *see* the neutrinos that indicate that fusion is still ongoing. But if they stop then we are in trouble. It was interesting to learn that the Sun also protects the earth and its inhabitants from dangerous cosmic radation by way of the heliosphere. QUOTE October 18, 2009 NASA scientists have discovered a mysterious ribbon around our solar system —- a stripe made of hydrogen —- that defies all current expectations about what the edge of the solar system might look like. UNQUOTE Full story at http://www.npr.ORG/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113914677 |
time delays on dab vs analogue
The message
from "Brian Gaff" contains these words: The problem with trying to get this right is that every set has a different delay. I know that the delay on my freeview and dab are different, and indeed a second dab I borrowed is some 2 seconds nearer the right time than the Pure one. I'd say that yes, it is all wrong. However, worse is to come. Sometimes when i use my scanner, i can pick up bbc radio talkback for interviews etc, this is quite often some three seconds ahead of the output from my fm tuner, so the time signals on the distribution networks are hardly that accurate either. Just remember, if the sun goes out, you will not know for 8 minutes. Brian 8 minutes and 20 seconds, actually ;-) Average distance is 93 million miles (Astronomical Unit) and the speed of light in a vacuum is 186,000 miles per second[1]. [1] Or, if you prefer metric units, 150 million Km and 300,000Km/s. Either way, it's a propagation delay of some 500 seconds. -- Regards, John. Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying. The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
... Max Demian wrote: "Norman Wells" wrote in message ... Max Demian wrote: The number of seconds delay depends on your hardware as well as the transmission. I guess that when (and if) analogue radio transmissions end the BBC will give up the GMT pips. Most people have at least one radio controlled clock in the house. Ah, but is that analogue radio or digital? I kind of expected that smartarse remark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_from_NPL#Protocol Sounds rather digital to me, if it matters. Then it'll be late because it apparently depends on your hardware. Not *everything* digital is slow. Does anyone know how the analogue clocks adjust when the clocks go back? If they're anything like the ones I have, the little knob on the back has something to do with it. And whether it is a Mickey or a Minnie Mouse model. -- Max Demian |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Bill Wright wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. No, clever clogs, that's ********. The BBC could play the pips early so as to make them more-or-less right for DAB. In theory . . . And go across the end of the preceding prog? Or to avoid this you'd need a long gap between live progs. And of course the pips are usually in between live spots. Not a theory you've thought through, Bill. ;-) If you just incorporate the DAB time delay into all the scheduling then the whole thing is broadcast about six seconds early, including the program changeover and pips. The only thing you will have to do is to have a 'DAB time' clock for anything with a studio (or other venue) audience so they don't get too confused. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
... "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. No, clever clogs, that's ********. The BBC could play the pips early so as to make them more-or-less right for DAB. In theory . . . Bill Indeed I suspect they may actually do that as there is distribution delays on the FM system as well. The only really accurate method is an off-air clock - and despite what one poster said you can get alarmclocks etc with off-air. The real problem Bill is that different DAB radios take different times to decode - in fact we have one that takes longer in the kitchen where the signal is not so good (occasional bubbling mud) than it does when in a front bedroom and gets a better signal (compared against an off-air clock.) Must be that when the decoding is working harder it takes longer? -- Woody harrogate three at ntlworld dot com |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article ,
Max Demian wrote: Not *everything* digital is slow. Digital radio mics put an audible delay in the audio compared to an analogue one and I'd guess they tried their best to minimise this. -- *I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In message , David WE Roberts
writes "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Bill Wright wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. No, clever clogs, that's ********. The BBC could play the pips early so as to make them more-or-less right for DAB. In theory . . . And go across the end of the preceding prog? Or to avoid this you'd need a long gap between live progs. And of course the pips are usually in between live spots. Not a theory you've thought through, Bill. ;-) If you just incorporate the DAB time delay into all the scheduling then the whole thing is broadcast about six seconds early, including the program changeover and pips. The only thing you will have to do is to have a 'DAB time' clock for anything with a studio (or other venue) audience so they don't get too confused. But is the delay constant? I've always thought that it depended on the amount of processing and multiplexing going on at any instant (ie on the content of audio signals being stuffed together). -- Ian |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
David WE Roberts wrote: If you just incorporate the DAB time delay into all the scheduling then the whole thing is broadcast about six seconds early, including the program changeover and pips. So how would that work with *live* broadcasts? -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! |
time delays on dab vs analogue
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:54:22 +0100, "Woody"
wrote: "Bill Wright" wrote in message .. . "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. No, clever clogs, that's ********. The BBC could play the pips early so as to make them more-or-less right for DAB. In theory . . . Bill Indeed I suspect they may actually do that as there is distribution delays on the FM system as well. The only really accurate method is an off-air clock - and despite what one poster said you can get alarmclocks etc with off-air. I believe R4 long wave is recognised as the most accurate time signal. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Not *everything* digital is slow. Digital radio mics put an audible delay in the audio compared to an analogue one and I'd guess they tried their best to minimise this. Not to mention flat screen monitors. Presumably if they delay the pictures by the same amount that the radio-mics delay the sound, it should be about right when played back on such a monitor, even if it sounds out of sync while recording the performance. Television never used to be able to give us out of sync sound and picture. It took a lot of technical innovation to achieve this. Now it's just like film, so I guess it must be good... Rod. -- Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/ |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article , Ian Jackson wrote:
The only thing you will have to do is to have a 'DAB time' clock for anything with a studio (or other venue) audience so they don't get too confused. But is the delay constant? I've always thought that it depended on the amount of processing and multiplexing going on at any instant (ie on the content of audio signals being stuffed together). It can be made constant if we want it to be, simply by specifying the delay time and padding all delays in receivers to match the longest path, just like we used to do with TV sync pulses. I'd suggest ten seconds as a practical and memorable amount. Those manufacturers who chose to make their receivers time-accurate would no doubt make it a selling point, and for the others, it wouldn't matter. Rod. -- Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/ |
time delays on dab vs analogue
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:58:09 +0100, Scott wrote:
I believe R4 long wave is recognised as the most accurate time signal. Not DCF77 or MSF or WWV or CHU ? |
time delays on dab vs analogue
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:05:52 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller
wrote: On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:58:09 +0100, Scott wrote: I believe R4 long wave is recognised as the most accurate time signal. Not DCF77 or MSF or WWV or CHU ? Fair point. What I meant to say was the most accurate audible time signal comprising a set of six pips received using normal domestic radio receivers. |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
... In article , Max Demian wrote: Not *everything* digital is slow. Digital radio mics put an audible delay in the audio compared to an analogue one and I'd guess they tried their best to minimise this. That doesn't mean that radio controlled clocks need to be delayed. -- Max Demian |
time delays on dab vs analogue
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Max Demian wrote: Not *everything* digital is slow. Digital radio mics put an audible delay in the audio compared to an analogue one and I'd guess they tried their best to minimise this. That's OK, because COFDM video links for radio cams also introduce a similar delay for the vision :-) -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. http://www.paras.org.uk/ |
time delays on dab vs analogue
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
... "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. No, clever clogs, that's ********. The BBC could play the pips early so as to make them more-or-less right for DAB. In theory . . . How can they play them before they are sent from Herstmonceux? -- Max Demian |
time delays on dab vs analogue
Scott wrote:
I believe R4 long wave is recognised as the most accurate time signal. Depends how far away you are from Droitwich, and more significantly, how far your ear is away from the speaker cone ! -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. http://www.paras.org.uk/ |
time delays on dab vs analogue
Woody wrote:
Indeed I suspect they may actually do that as there is distribution delays on the FM system as well. Remind me again, what does the 'I' in NICAM stand for ? -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. http://www.paras.org.uk/ |
time delays on dab vs analogue
In article ,
Max Demian wrote: "Bill Wright" wrote in message ... "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , comp.john wrote: When the time signal arrives, which is the accurate one. DAB or analogue? Rather obviously the earliest one - as you can delay something, but not make it happen before it does, as it were. If you could, you've just invented time travel. No, clever clogs, that's ********. The BBC could play the pips early so as to make them more-or-less right for DAB. In theory . . . How can they play them before they are sent from Herstmonceux? because they haven't "been sent from Herstmonseaux" for at least 20 years. The 'pips' come from a generator in BH. I'm sure it could be adjusted to be a few seconds early - or even 14 minutes and 53 seconds late. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 |
time delays on dab vs analogue
charles wrote:
In article , Mark Carver wrote: Woody wrote: Indeed I suspect they may actually do that as there is distribution delays on the FM system as well. Remind me again, what does the 'I' in NICAM stand for ? but the N stands for "Near" Yes, well, Near enough :-) I did conduct an experiment once when Holme Moss became receivable in Hampshire during a lift. I tuned one radio to Rowridge, the other to Holme Moss. I could not hear any time delay. -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. http://www.paras.org.uk/ |
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