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In article , J G Miller
writes
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:12:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

isn't it 2.7 absolute or summat?

Sounds about right.

Doesn't that depend on the final volume of the universe, which in turn
depends on the unresolved question of whether the universe is concave,
convex or flat. Most recent measurements suggest it is nearly flat, but
the error in those measurements isn't enough to conclude that it won't
collapse to a singularity again.
--
Kennedy
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's ****ed.
Python Philosophers (replace 'nospam' with 'kennedym' when replying)

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Adrian wrote:
English is the de facto international language.

One thinmg taht did come over

That sounds more like Esperanto!

Bill

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In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
I personally think all fat stupid people should be shot., and used to
make heating oil. Is there a name for that?

What about thin stupid people, or fat intelligent people?

Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

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Bill Wright wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Adrian wrote:
English is the de facto international language.

One thinmg taht did come over

That sounds more like Esperanto!

Mi esporas ke kiam vi venos la vetero estos milda.

--
Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

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"Zero Tolerance" wrote in message
...
: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:48:29 +0100, "Norman Wells"
: wrote:
:
: If the whole of the UK sank overnight, never to inconvenience
another
: electron, China's increase in electricity generation at
present rates would
: negate that in under a year.
:
: There are some *hoary* old chestnuts coming out in this debate.
:
: "It's not worth taking any action, ever, because China cancels
it all
: out, always" is, if you will forgive me saying so, not the
freshest of
: arguments.
:

But it's an *honest* argument! All we (the UK and EU) are doing
is harming ourselves (economically) whilst making not one jot of
difference environmentally, it's a bit like someone ****ing into
the ocean and trying to claim that they have caused an increase
in sea levels - or in this case, a decrease...
--
Regards, Jerry.

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"Kennedy McEwen" wrote in message
...
: In article , Bill
Wright
: writes
:
: Of course my grandparents' generation used the word for the
room (or shed)
: with the lavatory in it.
:
: Derr, isn't that the origin of "coming out of the closet", as
in
: "cottaging"?

Err, no, I think you are thinking of "Skeletons (secrets) in the
closet".

AIUI the Homosexuals "came out (into the open)", after the many
years of having to hide their sexual orientation from the law and
society (even post '67 to one degree or other, many still have to
'hide').

Few homosexuals would not want to admit to "cottaging", even
today, as it's still an illegal act...
--
Regards, Jerry.

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
: Jerry wrote:
: "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in
message
: ...
: snip
: :
: : I personally think all fat stupid people should be shot.,
and
: used to
: : make heating oil. Is there a name for that?
: :
:
: Suicide?...
:
:
: Nope.
:
: Definitely not fat, and stupid..no. Even total modesty wouldn't
have me
: describing myself thus. Not on a permanent basis anyway,..

In other words, you're not fat nor stupid at the same time! ;-)

:
: Or were you talking to yourself?

I was answering *your* question, if you killed me it would be
murder, or at least manslaughter on the grounds of diminished
responsibility...

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"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...
: The Natural Philosopher wrote:
:
: I personally think all fat stupid people should be shot., and
used to
: make heating oil. Is there a name for that?
:
: Extraordinary rendition, isn't it?

I'm larding by head off at that 'joke'... Please don't give the
ultra-right in the USA ideas. :~(

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"Jerry" wrote in message
...
:
snip
:
: Few homosexuals would not want to admit to "cottaging", even
: today, as it's still an illegal act...

Oops, a stray "not" in the above...

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The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Norman Wells wrote:

Because relativity says its so. ANY release of energy is accompanied
by a loss of mass.

Its vanishingly small for typical mechanical and chemical energy,
but its there just the same.

If it isn't, relativity is falsified, and there is a huge hue and
cry out for an alternative.

Then you have completely misuderstood relativity. Energy and mass
are interconvertible but only under specific circumstances you will
not find on earth outside nuclear reactions. If release of energy
is accompanied by a reduction in mass then what you've got is
nuclear fission. If you haven't got nuclear fission then you don't
get reduction of mass.


Oh dear me no.

You do. Its just almost unmeasurable, due to the fact that C squared
is a frigging big number.

Outside of nuclear reactions, all you have is energy conservation and
mass conservation, and they are entirely separate. One form of
energy can be converted into another, but not into mass, and mass
can never be converted into energy.


Oh yes it can, it is and it does, BUT the changes are virtually
undetectable.

sigh

Education today.

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Steve Terry wrote:
"J G Miller" wrote in message
...

The important thing is the French have run their Nuclear power
industry on military lines, if something needs fixing it's done.

The EU now want it privatised, which is worrying as Three mile island
was run that way.

Remember the theme of the movie the China Syndrome was it costs
money to do things properly, so under a privatised regime it's
tempting to cut corners.

Yes, we should all pay full attention to a fictional work whose main premise
is that a nuclear meltdown in the USA would burrow its way through the earth
all the way to China, shouldn't we? Particularly since any knowledge at all
of gravity renders that impossible, and any knowledge of geography means it
should have been called The Indian Ocean Syndrome.

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Steve Terry wrote:
"[email protected]" wrote in message
...
"Steve Terry" wrote in message
...
"Java Jive" wrote in message
...
snip
The only way we are ever going to get out of it is by acting
together each to do what we can.

Only way we are ever going to get out of it is if we put the goal
of Nuclear fusion on the same resource and priority footing
as the Manhattan project

I hope not we have already spent more than the Manhattan project
and I don't want to see fusion research stopped.


Nonsense, Manhattan between 1942 and 1945 took over 130,000 people,
70,000,000 pounds of silver from the U.S. Treasury reserves was used
for coils, and god know how many other resources

Projects at over thirty US sites, cash cost was only around $2B, but
in real terms
probably around 10% of the US's war time production capability.

If we put 10% of the industrialised worlds resources into fusion,
it would either be proved or disproved very quickly

What do you mean 'proved or disproved'? It exists. It just is.

What we have to do is develop it into a workable system for energy
production here on earth. And that's a bottomless pit. It has no end.

At the moment, actually, it sadly doesn't have a beginning either.

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"Bill R" wrote in message
...
I cannot get my head around the concept of power factor and, as there
seems to be no answer for the large discrepancy in the reading between the
two meters the whole thing seems to be a bit of a fudge. Anyway, assuming
all this to be true how does my consumer meter know how much electricity
is being effectively used.

I can't explain the readings on the devices you mentioned. They sound like
nonsense to me.

You probably read this WIKI page on meters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_meter
-"The induction type meter has separate coils for voltage and current"-
So does that mean the readings are different when the voltage and current
are out of phase?
The meter is varying the reading according to the users power factor?

On the WIKI Power Factor page it says:
-"The significance of power factor lies in the fact that utility companies
supply customers with volt-amperes, but bill them for watts.-"

So now I'm confused!

But ok, here's my recollection of college explanation of Power factor:

With AC the voltage and current are normally in phase, that is, as the
voltage rises the current rises at the same time.
If you drew a graph of voltage and current the two sinewaves would be
superimposed on each other. However this is only the case for a purely
resistive load. For inductive or capacitive loads the voltage and current
are pulled out of phase. The degree to which they are pulled out of phase
is the power factor and is measured as a number between 0 and 1.

Inductive loads such as motors:
When the voltage and current of each cycle starts to rise the inductance of
the windings opposes the change and generates a back emf that impedes the
current flow. The current cannot flow until the voltage has overcome the
back emf. The current is said to lag the voltage, or put the other way
around, the voltage leads the current.

Capacitive loads:
As the voltage and current of each cycle begins to rise the current rushes
in but the voltage cannot not rise immediately because the current has first
to fill or charge the capacitor. The current is said to lead the voltage.

Don't suppose that helps much.

On the Wiki page you mentioned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Note the section headed:
-Importance of power factor in distribution systems-

I recall being told that if industrial loads were all electric motors the
power company would need to have four power stations instead of the one they
would need if the loads were only resistive. For this reason power
companies charged more for users with low power factors. Industrial users
with lots of motors had capacitor rooms to try to correct for the inductance
of the motors and bring the PF closer to 1 and thereby to reduce their bill.

Bringing this back to the previous post, if the concept of power factor
really does effectively reduce the actual amount of power used why are we
being urged to replace tungsten bulbs in favour of the new bulbs. The
difference in wattage may be far greater overstated than the actual
difference.

As the old tungston light bulbs are more or less purely resistive so have a
PF of 1 any other type of bulb is going to be worse. I thought I heard the
new type light bulbs are slightly capacitive?

Really I think you have had the 'bamboozle them with tech speak' treatment.

Roger R

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Norman Wells coughed up some electrons that declared:


Then you have completely misuderstood relativity.

I'm still waiting for you to refute the Wikipedia article I cited...

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"Kennedy McEwen" wrote in message
...


However, any small country could, with the right technology, investment
and political will (which is the most likely barrier in the UK), punch
well above its weight with carbon capture. Indeed, with the appropriate
carbon trading agreements in place, it could be as profitable a business
as any currently vomiting CO2 across the planet.

However it would be far more sensible to do it in a country that had vast
amounts of "free" solar energy, like in the Sahara, the CO2 could be stored
in the oilfields where the oil has come from.
Or maybe it could be used to grow algae and then be dumped in an oceanic
trench to make some coal/oil for use in a few million years.

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"Kennedy McEwen" wrote in message
...
In article , Norman Wells
writes

Atmospheric extraction is totally unfeasible. Have you _any_ idea how big
the atmosphere is, and how small in comparison any man-made extractor
would be?

Yes, at surface density, it is equivalent to a uniform layer a little less
than 5 miles thick over the surface of the globe, some 200million square
miles, making the atmosphere approximately 1billion cubic miles at surface
density.

How many would we need do you think?

That depends on how fast you think we need to do it. The argument,
whether you believe it or not, is that we have managed to cause the
problem simply by a few hundred large CO2 producers over a couple of
hundred years. So a similar number of capture units should be capable of
sweeping it all up in a similar time, probably faster.

At a few hundred feet per minute a single atmospheric extraction unit with
a scrubber area of only 1 square mile, would take around 20,000 to remove
all CO2 from the atmosphere, so a distributed system of 50 such systems
around the planet would clear the problem in less time that it took to
create it in the first place - and we don't WANT to get rid of all of the
CO2 or we'd be in for a very cold future.

Wouldn't it be good for the equatorial countries?
They could extract lots of CO2 and cool down to a nice climate and leave us
to freeze.

And wouldn't it be better to use trees as we always have?

No, because trees rely on natural air movement to access the atmosphere,
not forced air movement. And they tend to decay or be burned, releasing
their captured CO2 in the timescale.

Not if you dump them in an ocean trench.

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"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...


How much energy do you think that will involve? How will these
'scrubbers' work exactly, and how will they be powered? To extract
anything that constitutes just 0.04% of the atmosphere by passing it _all_
through scrubbers, at speeds sufficient to suck in all the atmosphere of
the planet rather than wait for it to come to you, seems enormously
wasteful.


It is, but unlike other green technologies it might extract significantly
more carbon than it uses.
It is nowhere near as wasteful as wind turbines, solar PV, etc.

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Yes, we should all pay full attention to a fictional work whose main
premise is that a nuclear meltdown in the USA would burrow its way through
the earth all the way to China, shouldn't we?

You daft pillock! That wasn't the main theme at all! The "China Syndrome"
was a casual term used in the US nuclear industry at that time to refer to a
meltdown, and the film makers just used it in the title because it sounds
catchy.

Have you seen the film? It raised some VERY important issues about how the
drive for private profit can compromise safety. That's all.

SteveT

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"Zero Tolerance" wrote in message
...

"It's not worth taking any action, ever, because China cancels it all
out, always" is, if you will forgive me saying so, not the freshest of
arguments.

Indeed not, but it is an important and valid argument. The UK acting alone,
without China, America, India and Russia, will make no difference to global
warming, but will damage itself economically.

Only if ALL the big players join in can we make a difference. That is where
we must put our efforts.

That is a simple, incontrovertible fact, and to ignore it leads to bad
policy decisions.

SteveT

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"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...

sigh

Education today.

Norman, you are making yourself look a prat. You need to do a little
reading about mass-energy equivalence. Then you will understand.

Do you accept that an object increases in mass as it approaches light speed?
If so, everything else follows.

SteveT

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"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...
: Steve Terry wrote:
: "J G Miller" wrote in message
: ...
:
: The important thing is the French have run their Nuclear
power
: industry on military lines, if something needs fixing it's
done.
:
: The EU now want it privatised, which is worrying as Three
mile island
: was run that way.
:
: Remember the theme of the movie the China Syndrome was it
costs
: money to do things properly, so under a privatised regime
it's
: tempting to cut corners.
:
: Yes, we should all pay full attention to a fictional work whose
main premise
: is that a nuclear meltdown in the USA would burrow its way
through the earth
: all the way to China, shouldn't we? Particularly since any
knowledge at all
: of gravity renders that impossible, and any knowledge of
geography means it
: should have been called The Indian Ocean Syndrome.
:

OTOH we SHOULD all take notice of the core (no pun intended)
issues that caused the two worst nuclear accidents thus far,
cutting costs...
--
Regards, Jerry.

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Jerry wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...
Steve Terry wrote:
"J G Miller" wrote in message
...

The important thing is the French have run their Nuclear power
industry on military lines, if something needs fixing it's done.

The EU now want it privatised, which is worrying as Three mile
island was run that way.

Remember the theme of the movie the China Syndrome was it costs
money to do things properly, so under a privatised regime it's
tempting to cut corners.

Yes, we should all pay full attention to a fictional work whose main
premise is that a nuclear meltdown in the USA would burrow its way
through the earth all the way to China, shouldn't we? Particularly
since any knowledge at all of gravity renders that impossible, and
any knowledge of geography means it should have been called The
Indian Ocean Syndrome.


OTOH we SHOULD all take notice of the core (no pun intended)
issues that caused the two worst nuclear accidents thus far,
cutting costs...

Everything we do is subject to cost constraints. What matters is
cost-effectiveness and cost-benefit.

There has never been an industry yet without accidents.

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"Ron Lowe" wrote in message
...

isn't it 2.7 absolute or summat?


Better pack a fleece, then.

And a head-torch, it might be dark.

No point, there won't be any usable energy left to make heat for the fleece
to keep in or operate the torch.

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Sofa - Spud wrote:
alexander.keys1 wrote:
There have been a lot of comments recently about the waste of energy
due to appliances being left on standby, and various gizmo's that are
on offer to turn them off automatically, or otherwise purporting to
save energy. What everybody seems to be forgetting is that an energy-
saving device comes with most UK socket outlets, it's called a
'switch', and when put into the 'off' position, power cosumption is
zero! None of my appliances, including computers, digital TV
receivers, etc. have come to harm through this practice, I always
switch off at the wall, back in the day when there were fewer
appliances this was standard procedure to avoid fire risk.

From years of having old TV that buzz and smell we always switch off at
the plug when we go to bed, same for the PC, various chargers etc as
well. It's a habit from years ago and the old fire safety films.
Shutting the doors to the lounge , hall etc as well.

Milton Jones: "At the end of the day, my dad goes round switching everything
off and pulling out all the plugs. Very safety conscious. Quite why he got
the sack from air traffic control...".

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Steve Thackery wrote:
Yes, we should all pay full attention to a fictional work whose main
premise is that a nuclear meltdown in the USA would burrow its way
through the earth all the way to China, shouldn't we?

You daft pillock! That wasn't the main theme at all! The "China
Syndrome" was a casual term used in the US nuclear industry at that
time to refer to a meltdown

Got any proof of that?

, and the film makers just used it in the
title because it sounds catchy.

Alarmist more like.

Have you seen the film? It raised some VERY important issues about
how the drive for private profit can compromise safety. That's all.

It certainly illustrates how the producers' drive for profit can make the
title of a film blatantly compromise the truth.

As regards the plot, though, it's fiction.

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On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 09:57:17 +0100, "Roger R"
wrote:


"Bill R" wrote in message
...
I cannot get my head around the concept of power factor and, as there
seems to be no answer for the large discrepancy in the reading between the
two meters the whole thing seems to be a bit of a fudge. Anyway, assuming
all this to be true how does my consumer meter know how much electricity
is being effectively used.

I can't explain the readings on the devices you mentioned. They sound like
nonsense to me.

You probably read this WIKI page on meters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_meter
-"The induction type meter has separate coils for voltage and current"-
So does that mean the readings are different when the voltage and current
are out of phase?
The meter is varying the reading according to the users power factor?

On the WIKI Power Factor page it says:
-"The significance of power factor lies in the fact that utility companies
supply customers with volt-amperes, but bill them for watts.-"

So now I'm confused!

But ok, here's my recollection of college explanation of Power factor:

With AC the voltage and current are normally in phase, that is, as the
voltage rises the current rises at the same time.
If you drew a graph of voltage and current the two sinewaves would be
superimposed on each other. However this is only the case for a purely
resistive load. For inductive or capacitive loads the voltage and current
are pulled out of phase. The degree to which they are pulled out of phase
is the power factor and is measured as a number between 0 and 1.

Inductive loads such as motors:
When the voltage and current of each cycle starts to rise the inductance of
the windings opposes the change and generates a back emf that impedes the
current flow. The current cannot flow until the voltage has overcome the
back emf. The current is said to lag the voltage, or put the other way
around, the voltage leads the current.

Capacitive loads:
As the voltage and current of each cycle begins to rise the current rushes
in but the voltage cannot not rise immediately because the current has first
to fill or charge the capacitor. The current is said to lead the voltage.

Don't suppose that helps much.

On the Wiki page you mentioned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
Note the section headed:
-Importance of power factor in distribution systems-

I often wondered if a domestic user could reduce the power factor of
the supply and hence reduce the bill.

I recall being told that if industrial loads were all electric motors the
power company would need to have four power stations instead of the one they
would need if the loads were only resistive. For this reason power
companies charged more for users with low power factors. Industrial users
with lots of motors had capacitor rooms to try to correct for the inductance
of the motors and bring the PF closer to 1 and thereby to reduce their bill.

AFAIK industries are charged for VA not W, so PF does not affect their
bill. IOW they can't save money by reducing their PF.

Bringing this back to the previous post, if the concept of power factor
really does effectively reduce the actual amount of power used why are we
being urged to replace tungsten bulbs in favour of the new bulbs. The
difference in wattage may be far greater overstated than the actual
difference.

As the old tungston light bulbs are more or less purely resistive so have a
PF of 1 any other type of bulb is going to be worse. I thought I heard the
new type light bulbs are slightly capacitive?

Really I think you have had the 'bamboozle them with tech speak' treatment.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
[Reply-to address valid until it is spammed.]

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Steve Thackery wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...

sigh

Education today.

Norman, you are making yourself look a prat. You need to do a little
reading about mass-energy equivalence. Then you will understand.

Energy and mass are _not_ freely interconvertible. You require absolutely
extreme conditions for it to happen. On earth, you will only find it
happening in nuclear reactions.

Do you accept that an object increases in mass as it approaches light
speed?

Yes.

If so, everything else follows.

No it doesn't.

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
[email protected] wrote:


"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
"Owain" wrote in message
...
On 16 Sep, 23:42, "Max Demian" wrote:
Energy is neither created nor destroyed
Only according to classical physics.
Except in nuclear power stations and in stars. ;)
And springs and batteries and everything else that stores energy. (Not
that
you can measure the differences in mass.)

Surely if you're storing energy you're not creating or destroying it?

Maybe, but it violates the conservation of mass.

You can store energy without converting it to mass.
Chemical (batteries), and mechanical (springs) methods store energy
without converting it to mass.


Oh, but they DO.

Its a very very very small change though. We calculated the difference in
weight between a discharged and charged lithium batery. Much less than a
microgram IIRC.


Just because you can calculate a mass change using e=mc2 doesn't mean there
is a mass change.
You should be able to measure a change that big BTW.

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


A chemical compound does not weigh QUITE the same as its elements taken
separately.

A physicist doesn't confuse mass with weight BTW.

You can see the effect described and IIRC tested in terms of light
pressure on a sail ..photons - things with no rest mass at all, are
emitted by even chemical reactions, and can exert momentum changes on
things.

Light pressure has nowt to do with the mass of photons.
The little paddles driven around when you shine a light on them are not
driven by the momentum of photons at all as anyone with an O'level in
physics should be able to tell you.

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

E=mC^2. its there., If its wrong, you are right, if its right, you are
wrong.

I would love to see you apply that to quantum mechanics. ;-)

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Norman Wells coughed up some electrons that declared:

Steve Thackery wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...

sigh

Education today.

Norman, you are making yourself look a prat. You need to do a little
reading about mass-energy equivalence. Then you will understand.

Energy and mass are _not_ freely interconvertible. You require absolutely
extreme conditions for it to happen. On earth, you will only find it
happening in nuclear reactions.

Do you accept that an object increases in mass as it approaches light
speed?

Yes.

Looks like a perfect demonstration of mass/energy equivalence to me. Kinetic
energy, which is itself a relative phenonemum appears to manifest as
increased mass. Where's the problem?


If so, everything else follows.

No it doesn't.

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"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...
Bill Wright wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Adrian wrote:
English is the de facto international language.

One thinmg taht did come over

That sounds more like Esperanto!

Mi esporas ke kiam vi venos la vetero estos milda.

"We [at Google Translate] are not yet able to translate from Esperanto into
English."

They recognised the language, though.

--
Max Demian

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[email protected] coughed up some electrons that declared:



"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


A chemical compound does not weigh QUITE the same as its elements taken
separately.

A physicist doesn't confuse mass with weight BTW.

You can see the effect described and IIRC tested in terms of light
pressure on a sail ..photons - things with no rest mass at all, are
emitted by even chemical reactions, and can exert momentum changes on
things.

Light pressure has nowt to do with the mass of photons.
The little paddles driven around when you shine a light on them are not
driven by the momentum of photons at all as anyone with an O'level in
physics should be able to tell you.

Yes, we know that.

But that doesn't negate the fact that photons possess momentum, and thus
mass.

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"[email protected]" wrote in message
...
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
[email protected] wrote:

You can store energy without converting it to mass.
Chemical (batteries), and mechanical (springs) methods store energy
without converting it to mass.


Oh, but they DO.

Its a very very very small change though. We calculated the difference in
weight between a discharged and charged lithium batery. Much less than a
microgram IIRC.


Just because you can calculate a mass change using e=mc2 doesn't mean
there is a mass change.
You should be able to measure a change that big BTW.

How big is "much less than a microgram?"

(I seem to have started something here.)

--
Max Demian

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Max Demian coughed up some electrons that declared:

"[email protected]" wrote in message
...
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
[email protected] wrote:

You can store energy without converting it to mass.
Chemical (batteries), and mechanical (springs) methods store energy
without converting it to mass.


Oh, but they DO.

Its a very very very small change though. We calculated the difference
in weight between a discharged and charged lithium batery. Much less
than a microgram IIRC.


Just because you can calculate a mass change using e=mc2 doesn't mean
there is a mass change.
You should be able to measure a change that big BTW.

How big is "much less than a microgram?"

(I seem to have started something here.)


I stated 2.88nanograms for a 60Ah lead acid car battery. Be hard to measure
mass to 1 part per billion.

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Interesting discussion. Here's some food for thought:

If a sealed container does *not* allow particles to pass its walls but
*does* allow loss of energy via exchange of thermal radiation with its
outer environment, then a chemical reaction within that container could
increase the temperature within that container, and as it returns to its
original temperature it would lose energy and hence mass due to the
relativistic effect of slowing down the vibration (speed) of particles
within that container.

What about a battery? It's a matter of definitions as to what you
consider an ideal battery to be. You *could* argue that an *ideal* battery
is sealed to prevent whole atoms from passing through its walls but is
allowed to exchange energy with its environment via more than one method.

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"Steve Terry" wrote in message
...

Whereas the Russian way is, what corners?

Chernobyl had an excellent post meltdown safety system, that worked.
The core melted through the reactor and felt into the offices and storerooms
below where it was spread out so much fission stopped.
I doubt is the PWRs would do that. ;-)

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Norman Wells wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Norman Wells wrote:

Because relativity says its so. ANY release of energy is accompanied
by a loss of mass.

Its vanishingly small for typical mechanical and chemical energy,
but its there just the same.

If it isn't, relativity is falsified, and there is a huge hue and
cry out for an alternative.

Then you have completely misuderstood relativity. Energy and mass
are interconvertible but only under specific circumstances you will
not find on earth outside nuclear reactions. If release of energy
is accompanied by a reduction in mass then what you've got is
nuclear fission. If you haven't got nuclear fission then you don't
get reduction of mass.

Oh dear me no.

You do. Its just almost unmeasurable, due to the fact that C squared
is a frigging big number.

Outside of nuclear reactions, all you have is energy conservation and
mass conservation, and they are entirely separate. One form of
energy can be converted into another, but not into mass, and mass
can never be converted into energy.


Oh yes it can, it is and it does, BUT the changes are virtually
undetectable.

sigh

Education today.

...seems to have passed you by..

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Norman Wells wrote:
Steve Thackery wrote:
"Norman Wells" wrote in message
...

sigh

Education today.

Norman, you are making yourself look a prat. You need to do a little
reading about mass-energy equivalence. Then you will understand.

Energy and mass are _not_ freely interconvertible. You require
absolutely extreme conditions for it to happen. On earth, you will only
find it happening in nuclear reactions.

Do you accept that an object increases in mass as it approaches light
speed?

Yes.

If so, everything else follows.

No it doesn't.
faulty firmware Norman. Get your brain upgraded.

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Dave Farrance wrote:
Interesting discussion. Here's some food for thought:

If a sealed container does *not* allow particles to pass its walls but
*does* allow loss of energy via exchange of thermal radiation with its
outer environment,

radioatin is 'particles' they are called 'photons'

then a chemical reaction within that container could
increase the temperature within that container, and as it returns to its
original temperature it would lose energy and hence mass due to the
relativistic effect of slowing down the vibration (speed) of particles
within that container.

What about a battery? It's a matter of definitions as to what you
consider an ideal battery to be. You *could* argue that an *ideal* battery
is sealed to prevent whole atoms from passing through its walls but is
allowed to exchange energy with its environment via more than one method.