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I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with
the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! tim |
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"tim....." wrote in message
... I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! Do you mean you lost all the recorded material, or just future reservations? There are some issues with the time change and existing reservations, but I've never heard anyone losing recordings. -- Max Demian |
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"tim....." wrote in message ... I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! And everyone thought that Freeview Playback was supposed to stop this from happening. tim |
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"Max Demian" wrote in message ... "tim....." wrote in message ... I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! Do you mean you lost all the recorded material, or just future reservations? I lost today's recordings (because it recorded the hour before, not that they actually got deleted) There are some issues with the time change and existing reservations, Why? As I said, they've had six years to get it right. And if they know that haven't got it right they should be honest and say so. I think that I lost the recordings because they were set as "weekly". If this is the case and I'd been prewarned that they weren't going to work, I would have made then a once only for this week and gone back to weekly after the change. I've never heard anyone losing recordings. No I didn't mean this, sorry for the confusion. tim |
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tim..... wrote:
I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! We set up *two* different PVRs to record the F1 Grand Prix this morning. One managed to start recording an hour early, the other started an hour late! :-) -- Chris Green |
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wrote in message
... tim..... wrote: I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! We set up *two* different PVRs to record the F1 Grand Prix this morning. One managed to start recording an hour early, the other started an hour late! :-) -- Chris Green My Toppy is programmed to start 3 min before the recording is due. It also runs a Tap that switches it off at 5.am My Humax HDR did not have tuner 2 connected which may account for why it failed to make a recording. And in the morning the BBC iplayer would not let me see the 6am version of the programme -- Michael Chare |
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"tim....." wrote in message ... I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! tim On Friday I set my HDR to record the F1 (both progs, live and replay) and it recorded both. The odd thing though is I also set it to record the Boat Race but it did not...... |
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tim..... wrote:
"Max Demian" wrote: There are some issues with the time change and existing reservations, Why? As I said, they've had six years to get it right. And the DVB-T signal should have included the time of the next clock change for several months, so the box can hardly claim it was a surprise! |
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Thank you Humax
"tim....." wrote in message
... I lost today's recordings (because it recorded the hour before, not that they actually got deleted) There are some issues with the time change and existing reservations, Why? As I said, they've had six years to get it right. And if they know that haven't got it right they should be honest and say so. I think that I lost the recordings because they were set as "weekly". If this is the case and I'd been prewarned that they weren't going to work, I would have made then a once only for this week and gone back to weekly after the change. I suspect you just want to have a good moan, and I agree they should have got the software to work better by now, but I am not aware that there is a DVB-T DVR that is overall significantly better (though Topfield users swear by theirs). Until a really good one comes out, we will just have to work around the problems. Assuming "Recording's Start/End Time" is set to "On Time" (the default) most recordings will adjust themselves automatically to the time using Auto-Tracking. Setting the repeat timer (as you have done in this case) disables auto-tracking (for that programme), which can cause problems when the clocks change, though weekly repeats that have already been working will continue to work all right. -- Max Demian |
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On Friday I set my HDR to record the F1 (both progs, live and replay) and it recorded both. I set my Humax 9200T to record F1 on Friday too and it did the job perfectly. The EPG said the race coverage started at 5am before the clock change and thats what the entry in the recording schedule said. After the clock change the Humax correctly started recording at 6am which was when the BBC coverage actually started. -- WildCardZero |
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"Max Demian" wrote in message ... "tim....." wrote in message ... I lost today's recordings (because it recorded the hour before, not that they actually got deleted) There are some issues with the time change and existing reservations, Why? As I said, they've had six years to get it right. And if they know that haven't got it right they should be honest and say so. I think that I lost the recordings because they were set as "weekly". If this is the case and I'd been prewarned that they weren't going to work, I would have made then a once only for this week and gone back to weekly after the change. I suspect you just want to have a good moan, and I agree they should have got the software to work better by now, but I am not aware that there is a DVB-T DVR that is overall significantly better (though Topfield users swear by theirs). Until a really good one comes out, we will just have to work around the problems. Assuming "Recording's Start/End Time" is set to "On Time" (the default) most recordings will adjust themselves automatically to the time using Auto-Tracking. Setting the repeat timer (as you have done in this case) disables auto-tracking (for that programme), which can cause problems when the clocks change, though weekly repeats that have already been working will continue to work all right. Eighteen months ago ago I bought a couple of cheap Digifusion single tuner 80gb PVRs for around £40.00 each, and apart from an occasional lockup they have both given excellent service. Saturday evening I set the one in my bedroom up to record the F1 race, popped it into standby and on Sunday morning was pleased to find that that it had moved the clock forward an hour and recorded the whole of the race perfectly. When I looked at my Humax 9200 PVR (which was set to standby) in the living room at around 11am, I noticed that the clock was still an hour behind, however after switching it out of standby the clock corrected itself within a matter of seconds, so I wonder if this may have had an effect on the clock updating itself when set to record and left in standby mode? |
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"WCZ" wrote in message ... On Friday I set my HDR to record the F1 (both progs, live and replay) and it recorded both. I set my Humax 9200T to record F1 on Friday too and it did the job perfectly. The EPG said the race coverage started at 5am before the clock change and thats what the entry in the recording schedule said. After the clock change the Humax correctly started recording at 6am which was when the BBC coverage actually started. How's the clock on your computer, did that reset itself OK? |
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"Ivan" wrote in message
... "Max Demian" wrote in message ... "tim....." wrote in message ... I lost today's recordings (because it recorded the hour before, not that they actually got deleted) There are some issues with the time change and existing reservations, Why? As I said, they've had six years to get it right. And if they know that haven't got it right they should be honest and say so. I think that I lost the recordings because they were set as "weekly". If this is the case and I'd been prewarned that they weren't going to work, I would have made then a once only for this week and gone back to weekly after the change. I suspect you just want to have a good moan, and I agree they should have got the software to work better by now, but I am not aware that there is a DVB-T DVR that is overall significantly better (though Topfield users swear by theirs). Until a really good one comes out, we will just have to work around the problems. Assuming "Recording's Start/End Time" is set to "On Time" (the default) most recordings will adjust themselves automatically to the time using Auto-Tracking. Setting the repeat timer (as you have done in this case) disables auto-tracking (for that programme), which can cause problems when the clocks change, though weekly repeats that have already been working will continue to work all right. Eighteen months ago ago I bought a couple of cheap Digifusion single tuner 80gb PVRs for around £40.00 each, and apart from an occasional lockup they have both given excellent service. Saturday evening I set the one in my bedroom up to record the F1 race, popped it into standby and on Sunday morning was pleased to find that that it had moved the clock forward an hour and recorded the whole of the race perfectly. When I looked at my Humax 9200 PVR (which was set to standby) in the living room at around 11am, I noticed that the clock was still an hour behind, however after switching it out of standby the clock corrected itself within a matter of seconds, so I wonder if this may have had an effect on the clock updating itself when set to record and left in standby mode? This didn't cause the OP's problem, as that was to do with setting weekly repeats. The Humax updates its clock whenever it comes out of standby, for example to check whether the programme start time has changed (15 minutes before the programme is due), though this would be too late for programmes starting in the early hours after the clock goes forward by an hour (but OK when the clocks go back in the autumn). -- Max Demian |
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"Max Demian" wrote in message ... "tim....." wrote in message ... I lost today's recordings (because it recorded the hour before, not that they actually got deleted) There are some issues with the time change and existing reservations, Why? As I said, they've had six years to get it right. And if they know that haven't got it right they should be honest and say so. I think that I lost the recordings because they were set as "weekly". If this is the case and I'd been prewarned that they weren't going to work, I would have made then a once only for this week and gone back to weekly after the change. I suspect you just want to have a good moan, Yes, and why not :-) and I agree they should have got the software to work better by now, but I am not aware that there is a DVB-T DVR that is overall significantly better I don't think that's an excuse. I repeat, this is 2008. You might have expected such a basic error in a 1980s device, but the world has moved on. IMHO (as a professional software engineer) this mistake is extremely poor programming (and systems engineering). (though Topfield users swear by theirs). Until a really good one comes out, we will just have to work around the problems. Assuming "Recording's Start/End Time" is set to "On Time" (the default) most recordings will adjust themselves automatically to the time using Auto-Tracking. What does "the time using Auto-Tracking" mean? Setting the repeat timer (as you have done in this case) disables auto-tracking (for that programme), which can cause problems when the clocks change, Why? E.G. If the programmed is marked as starting at 9:00 then the simple solution is to "wake up" and start recording at 9:00, as per the "real time clock" (adjusted for BST). Writing the software so that it adjusts the remembered start time when the clock change (which is what appears to happen) is a nonsense why to design it to work (and I understand it's something inherent in the spec that causes this, not something Hummy have decided to do on their own). The one that I set to start at 9:00 on Sunday is now in my schedual as starting at 8:00 next sunday. though weekly repeats that have already been working will continue to work all right. I don't have any as I had to reset my box when Rowridge changed. Um yes I do, I had one for Saturday. You are right the start time for this prog in the schedule is correct. What nonsense! (FWIW, This is the exact opposite of what my old Digihome did wrong - it got it wrong if a repeat recording had started well before the clock change and it rolled over to record the week aftre the time change wrongly, but it go it right if you scheduled a repeat recording via the EPG once the day with the time change was in the EPG. tim |
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"Ivan" wrote in message
... "WCZ" wrote in message ... On Friday I set my HDR to record the F1 (both progs, live and replay) and it recorded both. I set my Humax 9200T to record F1 on Friday too and it did the job perfectly. The EPG said the race coverage started at 5am before the clock change and thats what the entry in the recording schedule said. After the clock change the Humax correctly started recording at 6am which was when the BBC coverage actually started. How's the clock on your computer, did that reset itself OK? Clock on my computer is fine so I'm not sure what your point is. -- WildCardZero |
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"WCZ" wrote in message ... "Ivan" wrote in message ... "WCZ" wrote in message ... On Friday I set my HDR to record the F1 (both progs, live and replay) and it recorded both. I set my Humax 9200T to record F1 on Friday too and it did the job perfectly. The EPG said the race coverage started at 5am before the clock change and thats what the entry in the recording schedule said. After the clock change the Humax correctly started recording at 6am which was when the BBC coverage actually started. How's the clock on your computer, did that reset itself OK? Clock on my computer is fine so I'm not sure what your point is. It was just that I posted in this thread at 10.28 am and noticed that several minutes after my message had appeared your message popped up, but was timed at 9.23 am so I wondered if maybe your O/S clock had failed to update and you hadn't noticed, but if that's when you sent it then presumably it was nothing more than your post taking its time to show up on my news server. |
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"tim....." wrote in message ... I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! A response from Humax? I've been waiting four months for one of those! |
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On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:00:19 +0100, "tim....."
wrote: I don't think that's an excuse. I repeat, this is 2008. ??? Your Humax box was an hour out. You are about three months out! |
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"Dr Zoidberg" wrote in message ... "tim....." wrote in message ... I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Odd. My PVR9200T coped just fine and recorded the Grand Prix correctly. Are you using auto-padding or accurate recording? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- the first (yes I know this is the problem, but that isn't an excuse) tim |
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"Peter Duncanson" wrote in message ... On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:00:19 +0100, "tim....." wrote: I don't think that's an excuse. I repeat, this is 2008. ??? Your Humax box was an hour out. You are about three months out! Oops |
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The message
from "WCZ" contains these words: "Ivan" wrote in message ... "WCZ" wrote in message ... On Friday I set my HDR to record the F1 (both progs, live and replay) and it recorded both. I set my Humax 9200T to record F1 on Friday too and it did the job perfectly. The EPG said the race coverage started at 5am before the clock change and thats what the entry in the recording schedule said. After the clock change the Humax correctly started recording at 6am which was when the BBC coverage actually started. How's the clock on your computer, did that reset itself OK? Clock on my computer is fine so I'm not sure what your point is. Let's face it, PC software (notably OS software) developers have had a good 25 years in which to consider this issue. I'm pretty sure the problem of DST/GMT adjustments was cracked by Microsoft over 15 years ago and even earlier on Unix based OSes such as Linux and OpenBSD. If the PC is booted up at the time of the change, it makes the change automatically without prompting the user. It is only when the PC was shutdown during the changeover time that the user (for windows at least) gets prompted to confirm the time setting change on next boot. As it happened, both machines (my desktop box and the Notebook) were booted up at the changeover time -2am, so automatically did so, saving me from having to deal with the question on the next boot of the desktop machine (the Notebook has yet to be rebooted). I was quite confident there wouldn't be a problem over the scheduled start time for that 6am recording. -- Regards, John. Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying. The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots. |
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"tim....." wrote in message ...
I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Odd. My PVR9200T coped just fine and recorded the Grand Prix correctly. Are you using auto-padding or accurate recording? -- Alex "I laugh in the face of danger , then I hide until it goes away" |
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"tim....." wrote:
"Dr Zoidberg" wrote My PVR9200T coped just fine and recorded the Grand Prix correctly. Are you using auto-padding or accurate recording? the first (yes I know this is the problem, but that isn't an excuse) I've not noticed the time-corrected recording causing any cropping of programmes lately, so I'd say it's reasonably safe at the moment. I certainly think it's safer than padding. Pity Humax PVRs can't do time correction *and* padding. A few months back, I did get the beginning or end cropped off some recordings, and it seemed to me that several minutes could be lost, but when I was able to re-recorded a repeat of the program, I realised that this impression was wrong and that only a few seconds were lost and that there was little of significance in those few seconds. After that, I accepted a slight cropping of the programmes, but as I said, that hasn't happened lately. One annoyance with the 9200T is that I had to delete Fiver and Five USA from the channel list. If I recorded a programme from Five, it would often record identical copies of the program from the other channels. This once caused a weekly clash where I happened to want to record two programmes at once, but one of those programmes got booted off by an unwanted repeat from Fiver. I can't actually recall ever watching anything on Fiver or Five USA, but it is somewhat irritating that I had to delete them. I don't know what's different about the EPG on Five that makes it do this because the other four main channels are fine, and repeats on the higher-numbered channels are only recorded if needed to resolve a clash. I don't know if other PVRs have this problem with Five. -- Dave Farrance |
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In article , Tim..... wrote:
I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! My Panasonic is just the same, but I've learnt how to avoid the problem. I've discovered that it only happens with post-change recordings that are programmed before the change, and only if I pick them from the handy onscreen menu. So I don't. If I enter the times manually, all is well. I don't know why it works, and such is my frustration with yet another bit of labour saving gubbins that is so clever it actually makes things more difficult that I'm beyond caring why it works. It just does. Rod. -- Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/ |
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Dave Farrance wrote:
I've not noticed the time-corrected recording causing any cropping of programmes lately, so I'd say it's reasonably safe at the moment. I certainly think it's safer than padding. Pity Humax PVRs can't do time correction *and* padding. A few months back, I did get the beginning or end cropped off some recordings, and it seemed to me that several minutes could be lost, but when I was able to re-recorded a repeat of the program, I realised that this impression was wrong and that only a few seconds were lost and that there was little of significance in those few seconds. After that, I accepted a slight cropping of the programmes, but as I said, that hasn't happened lately. Oh yes it is! Though it did get better for a couple of weeks. At the moment it is certainly missing the starts. We are recording all the early morning Time Team on Ch 4, and Ballykissangel on itv3. Since Sunday the beginning of all these has been cropped. Though there's tons of ads on the back end of some recordings. Richard |
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"Roderick Stewart" wrote in message .myzen.co.uk... In article , Tim..... wrote: I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! My Panasonic is just the same, but I've learnt how to avoid the problem. I've discovered that it only happens with post-change recordings that are programmed before the change, and only if I pick them from the handy onscreen menu. Yep that's exactly what my digihome did The hummy is cleverer and fails in a different way. Now that I know, I can set it to accurate recording if I'm away on holiday/business across a clock change. Yesterday was a one-off. I only set these programs to record the day before because I was out for the whole day and (due to the clock change) had to leave too early to set it before I went. I won't make that mistake again :-( tim |
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"Dave Farrance" wrote in message ...
"tim....." wrote: "Dr Zoidberg" wrote My PVR9200T coped just fine and recorded the Grand Prix correctly. Are you using auto-padding or accurate recording? the first (yes I know this is the problem, but that isn't an excuse) I've not noticed the time-corrected recording causing any cropping of programmes lately, so I'd say it's reasonably safe at the moment. I certainly think it's safer than padding. Pity Humax PVRs can't do time correction *and* padding. They could pad a few minutes on the end of a recording after the "stop" signal , but it would be considerably more impressive to add a few minutes before a signal that it hasn't yet received. Not totally impossible , but not easy to do. -- Alex "I laugh in the face of danger , then I hide until it goes away" |
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tim..... wrote:
I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! tim My 9200 worked perfectly, recording everything it was meant to on Sunday. D |
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Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:38:15 +0100, David Hearn wrote: tim..... wrote: I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! tim My 9200 worked perfectly, recording everything it was meant to on Sunday. Was it in standby or was it fully powered up at the time of the clock change? It was in standby - it does this automatically around 11pm, wakes up at 6:30pm to perform software check and then full wake up at 7pm. The recording at 5/6am worked fine, as did the afternoon one - both F1 recordings. D |
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"Dr Zoidberg" wrote in message
... "Dave Farrance" wrote in message ... "tim....." wrote: "Dr Zoidberg" wrote My PVR9200T coped just fine and recorded the Grand Prix correctly. Are you using auto-padding or accurate recording? the first (yes I know this is the problem, but that isn't an excuse) I've not noticed the time-corrected recording causing any cropping of programmes lately, so I'd say it's reasonably safe at the moment. I certainly think it's safer than padding. Pity Humax PVRs can't do time correction *and* padding. They could pad a few minutes on the end of a recording after the "stop" signal , but it would be considerably more impressive to add a few minutes before a signal that it hasn't yet received. Not totally impossible , but not easy to do. The Humax boots up 15 minutes before the programme is scheduled to start so that it can load the EPG, which is plenty of time to start recording if the start time has been changed. If it really has to wait until a signal before starting, it could simply record continuously and copy the padding from the buffer. -- Max Demian |
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"Dr Zoidberg" wrote in message ... "Dave Farrance" wrote in message ... "tim....." wrote: "Dr Zoidberg" wrote My PVR9200T coped just fine and recorded the Grand Prix correctly. Are you using auto-padding or accurate recording? the first (yes I know this is the problem, but that isn't an excuse) I've not noticed the time-corrected recording causing any cropping of programmes lately, so I'd say it's reasonably safe at the moment. I certainly think it's safer than padding. Pity Humax PVRs can't do time correction *and* padding. They could pad a few minutes on the end of a recording after the "stop" signal , but it would be considerably more impressive to add a few minutes before a signal that it hasn't yet received. Not totally impossible , but not easy to do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps I am wrong, but I think the biggest issue here, is with channels that don't use Accurate Recording. These seem to start/stop as per the clock, and we all know that channels can't be trusted to start their programs on time. If my box would allow me to specify a padding to use with these channels, I could live with the small amount that is lost at the start of an AR program by late detection of the start flag. But they don't do this, they work on the assumption that all channels use AR and if you select this mode, you don't need padding. I understand that this operation is a requirement of the "Freeview plus" logo BICBW, if it is this way, it is arrogant in the extreme, IMHO. tim |
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In article , Dr Zoidberg wrote:
I've not noticed the time-corrected recording causing any cropping of programmes lately, so I'd say it's reasonably safe at the moment. I certainly think it's safer than padding. Pity Humax PVRs can't do time correction *and* padding. They could pad a few minutes on the end of a recording after the "stop" signal , but it would be considerably more impressive to add a few minutes before a signal that it hasn't yet received. Not totally impossible , but not easy to do. I don't understand the problem. All my recorders receive a "signal" from my fingers a week or two before the required recording, so the start time can be anything I want. It's very easy to do. Rod. -- Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/ |
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David Hearn wrote:
Peter Duncanson wrote: On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:38:15 +0100, David Hearn wrote: tim..... wrote: I lost all my recordings to today because your box (9150T) can't cope with the clock change. Why is it that people just can't get this right? It isn't rocket science! It's a new mode FFS, you've had six years practice! I bet I get the normal patronising response that I should reset to factory defaults to fix it! tim My 9200 worked perfectly, recording everything it was meant to on Sunday. Was it in standby or was it fully powered up at the time of the clock change? It was in standby - it does this automatically around 11pm, wakes up at 6:30pm to perform software check and then full wake up at 7pm. The recording at 5/6am worked fine, as did the afternoon one - both F1 recordings. D That suggests that waking at 02:05 GMT could be just as good for a software check *and* cover the clock change effectively :-) -- PeeGee "Nothing should be able to load itself onto a computer without the knowledge or consent of the computer user. Software should also be able to be removed from a computer easily." Peter Cullen, Microsoft Chief Privacy Strategist (Computing 18 Aug 05) |
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tim..... wrote:
Perhaps I am wrong, but I think the biggest issue here, is with channels that don't use Accurate Recording. These seem to start/stop as per the clock, and we all know that channels can't be trusted to start their programs on time. If my box would allow me to specify a padding to use with these channels, I could live with the small amount that is lost at the start of an AR program by late detection of the start flag. But they don't do this, they work on the assumption that all channels use AR and if you select this mode, you don't need padding. I understand that this operation is a requirement of the "Freeview plus" logo BICBW, if it is this way, it is arrogant in the extreme, IMHO. tim As has been said before, the Hummy 9200T is somewhat eccentric in the way it applies Accurate Record. It *only* uses the Start of Programme flag sent in the EITpf table. If this is missing, wrongly timed or the Hummy misses it the start is delayed. The Playback spec requires an every 10 secs (max) check of this. The Sony PVRs, I am reliably informed, do the obvious. They start on EITHER Programme Start flag or EITpf programme start time if flag is not seen. The main broadcasters send the Start of Programme flag usually, at least, at the start of the last ad before the programme start. Though, apart from the beeb, they don't seem able to put the start and end flags reliably in the right positions! Richard |
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