Aerial costs?
 

In article , Max Demian
scribeth thus
"Glenn Millar" wrote in message
net...
Silk wrote:
charles wrote:
In article ,
Silk wrote:

What's wrong with someone who doesn't waste money on a posh van, is
professional enough not to need insurance and relies on skill rather
than gadgets? Hmm?

Who suggested a 'posh' van - but you probably need a reliable one. How
does being 'professional' remove the need for insurance?

Public Liability insurance should be required by law. Insurance is there
to protect both the professional installer as well as the customer.

Insurance is there to make large profits for the insurance companies and
give customers a false sense of security.


Drive your car uninsured then?.,,..
--
Tony Sayer

Aerial costs?
 

Silk wrote:
charles wrote:
In article ,
Silk wrote:

What's wrong with someone who doesn't waste money on a posh van, is
professional enough not to need insurance and relies on skill rather
than gadgets? Hmm?

Who suggested a 'posh' van - but you probably need a reliable one. How
does being 'professional' remove the need for insurance?

If you're a proper professional you won't be making any mistakes or
having accidents.

LOL!

You can't see
radio waves and no amount of skill will tell you what signal level the
aerial is producing at the bottom of the downlead.

A good "old fashioned" rigger will have a feel for these things.

On the easy jobs you are probably right. In a more difficult situation
this is complete nonsense. Having the right test gear and knowing how to
use it will be one of the differentiators between the chancer and the
professional.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Aerial costs?
 

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:31:42 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

On 14/09/2008 08:07, Edward W. Thompson wrote:

I have been quoted from £60 to £200 for the same job of
installing a dipole aerial for a DAB radio on an existing mast mounted
on a chimney at the end of my house.

And you went for the cheapest option and ended up with an unsatisfactory
installation from what I remember.

You remember incorrectly. The installer, who offered to do the job
for £60, couldn't get a signal at the receiver, removed the equipment
(aerial and cable, and there was no charge. However, that has nothing
to do with the topic at hand, just a rather stupid attempt to
discredit what has been suggested. If you have anything to offer in
how work should be costed, not priced, then lets hear it otherwise...
well you figuire it out.

Aerial costs?
 

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:29:38 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

If you disagree with my figures (assumptions) then substitute your own
and you will arrive at what you consider to be the 'cost'. You will
then be able to compare your cost with the 'price' quoted and make a
judgment accordingly.

So he goes around on an old push bike, needs no insurance cover or test
equipment then?...

I really dispair at some of your comments/observations. (Is it simpluy
due to lack of intelligence?). In my post there was £18,000/year for
overheads. If you know what overheads are, push bikes or whatever are
included in that figure. I think £18,000/year allows for a rather
nice push bike, don't you?

Aerial costs?
 

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:39:49 +0100, Glenn Millar
wrote:

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 09:11:01 +0100, "Doctor D"
wrote:

"Carpy" wrote in message
...
Found a few interesting pages regarding aerial costs etc. Read the
comments at the bottom of the pages too. I don't understand how some of
these installers can claim to offer a new aerial installation with an
amplifier for £65?

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/prices/ho...l-install.html

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/howi/freeview_aerial.html

Easy.

"No income tax, no VAT, no money back, no guarantee."
This time next year Rodney, we'll be millionaires.

Your topic mentions cost not price, there is a major difference as you
know. If you consider 'cost' , cost will comprise the principal
elements of materials plus overheads plus labour.

Starting with labour, how much is it reasonable for an aerial
installer to 'earn' per year. Let's say £30,000 ( a little high
perhaps but we must start somewhere). On the assumption the number of
hours worked per year is 2000 that means a rate of £15/hour is
required if he can 'sell' all hours which isn't possible. If we
assume 60% of the time is 'chargeable' the hourly rate is £25/hour for
a salary of £30,000/year.

With respect to materials, I would guess the 'average' cost of
materials for most installations does not exceed £20 and likely
somewhat less. Obviously there will be installations where it will
cost more. So for an hours job the 'cost' would be, excluding
overheads, £45 for the 'average' job.

Assuming 'we' are in agreement so far, for a price of £60 the overhead
part would be £15. Referring to my previous 'assumption' that the
number of chargeable hours is 60% of 2000 hr/year, chargeable hours
are 1200hours therefore the annual contribution to overheads is
£15x1200 which is £18,000/year. Seems adequate to me.

Considering the type of work and the 'danger' aspect, I pose the
question why is erecting an aerial anymore dangerous than say that of
a 'roofer'? If the type of danger is equivalent why should an aerial
erector be compensated more for the risk than a 'roofer'?

Now having addressed the basis of 'cost', price is a different matter.
Price is set by the market and what the public are prepared to pay. It
is perfectly clear, to me at least, that many of those in the aerial
erection business are 'ripping-off' the gullible public. For the same
enquiry I have been quoted from £60 to £200 for the same job of
installing a dipole aerial for a DAB radio on an existing mast mounted
on a chimney at the end of my house. No roof work required, all
accessible from a ladder.

If you disagree with my figures (assumptions) then substitute your own
and you will arrive at what you consider to be the 'cost'. You will
then be able to compare your cost with the 'price' quoted and make a
judgment accordingly.


My goodness. Since when was any self employed person restricted to only
earning £30000 pa pre tax?

Here is my typical basic aerial installation over here in Northern
Ireland, and give me your estimate on what you think it might cost. We
may both be surprised on the 'costs'.

14" cradle chimney bracket with lashing kit
10' x 2" 14g alloy mast
2 Wideband CAI standard 3 aerials (for uk and irish channels)
Triax 5052 diplexer
15m WF100 cable
coax plug
1.5 hours labour

On your reply, I'll tell you what I charge for the above job.


What you charge versus what is the cost for a job are quite different.
Taking you up on your comments, let me assume you require a pre tax
income of £60,000/year then on the basis of my earlier post that is
£50/hour as the labour component and let me double the equipment cost
to £40, now the cost for the job (one hour average job) is £90.

Rather than making infantile comments, how about you telling us your
cost, not your price. Please ensure you include your annual overheads
as it appears that several contributors to this thread don't seem to
understand what overheads are.

Aerial costs?
 

On 15/09/2008 08:25, Edward W. Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:31:42 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

And you went for the cheapest option and ended up with an unsatisfactory
installation from what I remember.

You remember incorrectly. The installer, who offered to do the job
for £60, couldn't get a signal at the receiver, removed the equipment
(aerial and cable, and there was no charge.

OK, so you went *via* the cheapest solution, rather than "ended up" with it.

However, that has nothing
to do with the topic at hand, just a rather stupid attempt to
discredit what has been suggested. If you have anything to offer in
how work should be costed, not priced, then lets hear it otherwise...
well you figuire it out.

You appear to think that things are still costed and priced the way they
were in 1970's economics textbooks, I appreciate you may have worked
that way, at that time, in a large organisation.

Nowadays, as people here keep trying to point out, with smaller outfits,
in a service economy where the labour costs and other overheads dwarf
the cost of parts, your carefully calculated numbers don't match reality.

Aerial costs?
 

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:01:18 +0100, "Carpy"
wrote:


"Edward W. Thompson" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 09:11:01 +0100, "Doctor D"
wrote:


"Carpy" wrote in message
...
Found a few interesting pages regarding aerial costs etc. Read the
comments at the bottom of the pages too. I don't understand how some of
these installers can claim to offer a new aerial installation with an
amplifier for £65?

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/prices/ho...l-install.html

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/howi/freeview_aerial.html


Easy.

"No income tax, no VAT, no money back, no guarantee."
This time next year Rodney, we'll be millionaires.

Your topic mentions cost not price, there is a major difference as you
know. If you consider 'cost' , cost will comprise the principal
elements of materials plus overheads plus labour.

Starting with labour, how much is it reasonable for an aerial
installer to 'earn' per year. Let's say £30,000 ( a little high
perhaps but we must start somewhere). On the assumption the number of
hours worked per year is 2000 that means a rate of £15/hour is
required if he can 'sell' all hours which isn't possible. If we
assume 60% of the time is 'chargeable' the hourly rate is £25/hour for
a salary of £30,000/year.

With respect to materials, I would guess the 'average' cost of
materials for most installations does not exceed £20 and likely
somewhat less. Obviously there will be installations where it will
cost more. So for an hours job the 'cost' would be, excluding
overheads, £45 for the 'average' job.

Assuming 'we' are in agreement so far, for a price of £60 the overhead
part would be £15. Referring to my previous 'assumption' that the
number of chargeable hours is 60% of 2000 hr/year, chargeable hours
are 1200hours therefore the annual contribution to overheads is
£15x1200 which is £18,000/year. Seems adequate to me.

Considering the type of work and the 'danger' aspect, I pose the
question why is erecting an aerial anymore dangerous than say that of
a 'roofer'? If the type of danger is equivalent why should an aerial
erector be compensated more for the risk than a 'roofer'?

Now having addressed the basis of 'cost', price is a different matter.
Price is set by the market and what the public are prepared to pay. It
is perfectly clear, to me at least, that many of those in the aerial
erection business are 'ripping-off' the gullible public. For the same
enquiry I have been quoted from £60 to £200 for the same job of
installing a dipole aerial for a DAB radio on an existing mast mounted
on a chimney at the end of my house. No roof work required, all
accessible from a ladder.

If you disagree with my figures (assumptions) then substitute your own
and you will arrive at what you consider to be the 'cost'. You will
then be able to compare your cost with the 'price' quoted and make a
judgment accordingly.

Edward your figures above are total ********. If you believed them why would
you call someone who charged £65 for the DAB aerial install? That would be
£5 profit according to your figures. Or did you think this £5 was an
acceptable amount of profit for the installer?

snip

I have 'snipped' the abuse and am wondering why I am replying to a
fool. However, what profit are you talking about? I have not allowed
profit as a discrete element as the 'profit' is the £30,000 per year
return for work done.

If my figure and methodology are so wrong, (******** was the
expression I see) please show me how you would cost a job. I assume
you have no idea but perhaps you will surprise me when you respond,
although I won't hold my breath.

As a comment to all other contributors to the subject of the topic, I
have offered a costing, not pricing, of installing an aerial based
upon one hour work, as it appears this to be the 'average' time
required. I recognize that £30,000/year for an aerial installer may
be open to question (either too high or too low) and also £20 for
materials (average job) maybe too high but I don't think it to be too
low. To those that disagree, I assume you must have the 'correct'
figures. With the correct information perhaps we may all benefit.

What I will add is on my original post I did not make an allowance for
contingencies. When quoting without sighting the job it would be
reasonable to allow something for contigencies if the price is a fixed
price, perhaps 20% might be right. I suppose a contingency allowance
relates more to price than to cost as does VAT.

Aerial costs?
 

On 15/09/2008 09:02, Edward W. Thompson wrote:

what profit are you talking about? I have not allowed
profit as a discrete element as the 'profit' is the £30,000 per year
return for work done.

I did think similar thoughts when I saw Carpy's message, that you had
allowed for a generous salary; but without knowing whether people are
self employed, or working through a limited company, whether that
company is a one-man band, what they see as a reasonable wage, whether
they expect the company to make significant profit on top of that,
whether they reward themselves partly through dividends, it gets rather
complicated.

Aerial costs?
 

In article , Edward W. Thompson
scribeth thus

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:29:38 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

If you disagree with my figures (assumptions) then substitute your own
and you will arrive at what you consider to be the 'cost'. You will
then be able to compare your cost with the 'price' quoted and make a
judgment accordingly.

So he goes around on an old push bike, needs no insurance cover or test
equipment then?...

I really dispair at some of your comments/observations. (Is it simpluy
due to lack of intelligence?).


Don't think so, in the day job I have to design transmission aerials and
systems sometimes;)

In my post there was £18,000/year for
overheads.

Unfortunately some posts on this thread have gone missing..

If you know what overheads are, push bikes or whatever are
included in that figure. I think £18,000/year allows for a rather
nice push bike, don't you?

Indeed. You could get what we call a farmers "push bike" for that round
these parts, usually a Harley D!...
--
Tony Sayer

Aerial costs?
 

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:39:49 +0100, Glenn Millar
wrote:

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 09:11:01 +0100, "Doctor D"
wrote:

"Carpy" wrote in message
...
Found a few interesting pages regarding aerial costs etc. Read the
comments at the bottom of the pages too. I don't understand how some of
these installers can claim to offer a new aerial installation with an
amplifier for £65?

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/prices/ho...l-install.html

http://www.whatprice.co.uk/howi/freeview_aerial.html

Easy.

"No income tax, no VAT, no money back, no guarantee."
This time next year Rodney, we'll be millionaires.
Your topic mentions cost not price, there is a major difference as you
know. If you consider 'cost' , cost will comprise the principal
elements of materials plus overheads plus labour.

Starting with labour, how much is it reasonable for an aerial
installer to 'earn' per year. Let's say £30,000 ( a little high
perhaps but we must start somewhere). On the assumption the number of
hours worked per year is 2000 that means a rate of £15/hour is
required if he can 'sell' all hours which isn't possible. If we
assume 60% of the time is 'chargeable' the hourly rate is £25/hour for
a salary of £30,000/year.

With respect to materials, I would guess the 'average' cost of
materials for most installations does not exceed £20 and likely
somewhat less. Obviously there will be installations where it will
cost more. So for an hours job the 'cost' would be, excluding
overheads, £45 for the 'average' job.

Assuming 'we' are in agreement so far, for a price of £60 the overhead
part would be £15. Referring to my previous 'assumption' that the
number of chargeable hours is 60% of 2000 hr/year, chargeable hours
are 1200hours therefore the annual contribution to overheads is
£15x1200 which is £18,000/year. Seems adequate to me.

Considering the type of work and the 'danger' aspect, I pose the
question why is erecting an aerial anymore dangerous than say that of
a 'roofer'? If the type of danger is equivalent why should an aerial
erector be compensated more for the risk than a 'roofer'?

Now having addressed the basis of 'cost', price is a different matter.
Price is set by the market and what the public are prepared to pay. It
is perfectly clear, to me at least, that many of those in the aerial
erection business are 'ripping-off' the gullible public. For the same
enquiry I have been quoted from £60 to £200 for the same job of
installing a dipole aerial for a DAB radio on an existing mast mounted
on a chimney at the end of my house. No roof work required, all
accessible from a ladder.

If you disagree with my figures (assumptions) then substitute your own
and you will arrive at what you consider to be the 'cost'. You will
then be able to compare your cost with the 'price' quoted and make a
judgment accordingly.

My goodness. Since when was any self employed person restricted to only
earning £30000 pa pre tax?

Here is my typical basic aerial installation over here in Northern
Ireland, and give me your estimate on what you think it might cost. We
may both be surprised on the 'costs'.

14" cradle chimney bracket with lashing kit
10' x 2" 14g alloy mast
2 Wideband CAI standard 3 aerials (for uk and irish channels)
Triax 5052 diplexer
15m WF100 cable
coax plug
1.5 hours labour

On your reply, I'll tell you what I charge for the above job.


What you charge versus what is the cost for a job are quite different.
Taking you up on your comments, let me assume you require a pre tax
income of £60,000/year then on the basis of my earlier post that is
£50/hour as the labour component and let me double the equipment cost
to £40, now the cost for the job (one hour average job) is £90.

Rather than making infantile comments, how about you telling us your
cost, not your price. Please ensure you include your annual overheads
as it appears that several contributors to this thread don't seem to
understand what overheads are.

With all due respect, I nor anyone would freely disclose what they pay
for any product that is later resold at a profit. You wouldn't ask
tescos what they pay for a bag of potatoes so you could judge if you
where paying too much. You shop about and compare prices.

You have avoided giving a cost or price on what I have listed above. Why?

--

Glenn Millar - TV Aerials

www.glennmillar.plus.com

http://tinyurl.com/glennmillar-tvaerials