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24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that
the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Chas |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote:
From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second, so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns
said: On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote: From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second, so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth. My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series, such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA. Stan |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"Stan The Man" wrote in message ... On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns said: On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote: From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second, so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth. My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series, such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA. All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps). |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W"
said: "Stan The Man" wrote in message ... On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns said: On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote: From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second, so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth. My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series, such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA. All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps). Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects suitable material? Stan |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"Chas Gill" wrote in message ... From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Chas your eyes will tell you that. if 24fps capable tvs didn''t exist, would you be happy with how your tv looks? if the answer is yes, just accept that there will always be a more expensive tv than you own. -- Gareth. that fly...... is your magic wand.... |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message m... Have you not noticed that for most of our lives, any music in films is just slightly jarringly, in some cases, too fast? I imagine this is an attempt to get over this problem. that's PAL speedup - you won't get that with a 24fps source unless they screw up with the mastering. -- Gareth. that fly...... is your magic wand.... |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
The dog from that film you saw wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message m... Have you not noticed that for most of our lives, any music in films is just slightly jarringly, in some cases, too fast? I imagine this is an attempt to get over this problem. that's PAL speedup - you won't get that with a 24fps source unless they screw up with the mastering. To be totally accurate (after all this is Usenet) it's speed-up for any 25 fps TV system, and has nothing to do with PAL or any other colour encoding system. -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"Mark Carver" wrote in message ... The dog from that film you saw wrote: "Brian Gaff" wrote in message m... Have you not noticed that for most of our lives, any music in films is just slightly jarringly, in some cases, too fast? I imagine this is an attempt to get over this problem. that's PAL speedup - you won't get that with a 24fps source unless they screw up with the mastering. To be totally accurate (after all this is Usenet) it's speed-up for any 25 fps TV system, and has nothing to do with PAL or any other colour encoding system. :( i assumed he was viewing PAL material.... -- Gareth. that fly...... is your magic wand.... |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:42:22 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote: On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W" said: "Stan The Man" wrote in message ... On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns said: On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote: From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second, so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth. My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series, such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA. All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps). Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects suitable material? Stan I have a Panny Viera, but I haven't noticed an option to switch 24fps on or off. Mine seems automatic. Marky P. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:13:04 +0100, "The dog from that film you saw"
wrote: "Chas Gill" wrote in message ... From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Chas your eyes will tell you that. if 24fps capable tvs didn''t exist, would you be happy with how your tv looks? if the answer is yes, just accept that there will always be a more expensive tv than you own. When I bought my Blu-Ray player I had a 42" plasma that didn't accept 24fps. The result was jerky movement, most noticeable when panning. I believe some TV's are better at conversion than others. Probably the same with different Blu-Ray players. Marky P. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Marky P wrote:
When I bought my Blu-Ray player I had a 42" plasma that didn't accept 24fps. The result was jerky movement, most noticeable when panning. I believe some TV's are better at conversion than others. Probably the same with different Blu-Ray players. No, it's the BluRay player that does the conversion from 24 fps to 25 fps, not the TV. The player will output 24 fps, only if the TV/Monitor tells it to, otherwise it converts to 25 fps. If you think about it, it has to be that way round. -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"The dog from that film you saw" wrote in message ... "Chas Gill" wrote in message ... From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Chas your eyes will tell you that. if 24fps capable tvs didn''t exist, would you be happy with how your tv looks? if the answer is yes, just accept that there will always be a more expensive tv than you own. -- Gareth. Not really the point. Until Blu Ray all source material was 25 fps so my eyes didn't have a problem. Oh, and by the way, my TV was VERY expensive when I bought it not about 18 months ago (not so now, though :-( ). What worries me is that my very expensive TV (which performs outstandingly with 1080i source material from my SKY box) isn't capable of a similar outstanding performance from a Blu Ray source, because someone decided that Blu Ray had to deliver 24fps because that's what films do. I didn't buy a friggin' projector, I bought a telly. What exactly did the blu ray designer have in mind when he was designing a TV source box ????? |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On 2008-08-20 20:15:14 +0100, Marky P said:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:42:22 +0100, Stan The Man wrote: On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W" said: "Stan The Man" wrote in message ... On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns said: On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote: From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second, so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth. My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series, such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA. All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps). Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects suitable material? Stan I have a Panny Viera, but I haven't noticed an option to switch 24fps on or off. Mine seems automatic. To be more precise, the feature is called "Intelligent Frame Creation" (TH- 42PZ81B model) and it is configurable to on or off. Stan |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Chas Gill wrote:
Not really the point. Until Blu Ray all source material was 25 fps so my eyes didn't have a problem. Oh, and by the way, my TV was VERY expensive when I bought it not about 18 months ago (not so now, though :-( ). What worries me is that my very expensive TV (which performs outstandingly with 1080i source material from my SKY box) isn't capable of a similar outstanding performance from a Blu Ray source, because someone decided that Blu Ray had to deliver 24fps because that's what films do. I didn't buy a friggin' projector, I bought a telly. What exactly did the blu ray designer have in mind when he was designing a TV source box ????? 24 fps working, 1080-24p is not really a 'BluRay' mode per se, it's one of about 24 different valid and mandated HD standards. The decision to use 24p to master movies on BluRay was taken to avoid the 4% speed-up that's been used up until now on all 25fps TV systems, mainly of course 625/50 SD. Some high end broadcast electronic cameras and production kit also support the format. It's all about standards again, and the same arguments apply as the DTT split NIT saga. If a TV is marked 'HD Ready' it should support 24p working. Sadly not all do, even from the 'Blue Chip' manufacturers. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Stan The Man wrote:
To be more precise, the feature is called "Intelligent Frame Creation" (TH- 42PZ81B model) and it is configurable to on or off. In the US, the Intelligent Frame Creation (IFC) is used to insert extra frames to smooth out film judder and is therefore probably a desirable feature over there. Unfortunately, over here they've also decided to use IFC to convert the UK's 50 fps sources to the LCD's 60 fps: http://panasonic.net/pavc/viera/features/europe.html However cleverly it's done, it has to cause some blurring or artifacts compared to an LCD that can be switched to run natively at 50 fps or a multiple of that. I've found a number of comments on the web saying that IFC does seem to make motion smoother, but in a unnatural way, and they recommend that IFC is left switched off. True 50 fps seems to me to be much more desirable than true 24 fps for a television over here. I'd hope that most TVs sold over here *are* capable of true 50 fps, but I've not researched this so it might be a more widespread problem than just these Panasonic Vieras. -- Dave Farrance |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Mark Carver wrote:
It's all about standards again, and the same arguments apply as the DTT split NIT saga. If a TV is marked 'HD Ready' it should support 24p working. Sadly not all do, even from the 'Blue Chip' manufacturers. Not so; the spec for the "HD Ready" logo says nothing about 24 fps at all. "HD Ready" means only four things; 1) The minimum native resolution of the display or display engine is 720 physical lines in wide aspect ratio. 2) The display device accepts HD input via; a) analogue YPbPr and b) DVI or HDMI 3) HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats; a) 1280x720 @ 50Hz and 60Hz progressive ("720p") and b) 1920x1080 @ 50Hz and 60Hz interlaced ("1080i") 4) The HDMI or DVI input supports content protection (HDCP). That's it. If a TV or monitor can meet those standards then it's "HD Ready". Nothing else is required to be met. See http://www.eicta.org/index.php?id=32&id_article=50 and the "HD Ready Logo - License Agreement" PDF linked from there which contains the requirements and the testing procedure. -- Angus G Rae Science & Engineering Support Team Computing Services University of Edinburgh The above opinions are mine, and Edinburgh University can't have them |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Angus Rae wrote:
Mark Carver wrote: It's all about standards again, and the same arguments apply as the DTT split NIT saga. If a TV is marked 'HD Ready' it should support 24p working. Sadly not all do, even from the 'Blue Chip' manufacturers. Not so; the spec for the "HD Ready" logo says nothing about 24 fps at all. "HD Ready" means only four things; 1) The minimum native resolution of the display or display engine is 720 physical lines in wide aspect ratio. 2) The display device accepts HD input via; a) analogue YPbPr and b) DVI or HDMI 3) HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats; a) 1280x720 @ 50Hz and 60Hz progressive ("720p") and b) 1920x1080 @ 50Hz and 60Hz interlaced ("1080i") 4) The HDMI or DVI input supports content protection (HDCP). That's it. If a TV or monitor can meet those standards then it's "HD Ready". Nothing else is required to be met. See http://www.eicta.org/index.php?id=32&id_article=50 and the "HD Ready Logo - License Agreement" PDF linked from there which contains the requirements and the testing procedure. Just goes to show that the 'HD Ready' logo is not really much use then ! |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"Chas Gill" wrote in message ... Not really the point. Until Blu Ray all source material was 25 fps so my eyes didn't have a problem. Oh, and by the way, my TV was VERY expensive when I bought it not about 18 months ago (not so now, though :-( ). What worries me is that my very expensive TV (which performs outstandingly with 1080i source material from my SKY box) isn't capable of a similar outstanding performance from a Blu Ray source, because someone decided that Blu Ray had to deliver 24fps because that's what films do. I didn't buy a friggin' projector, I bought a telly. What exactly did the blu ray designer have in mind when he was designing a TV source box ????? blu ray players will happily output a signal that works fine with your tv. you don't HAVE to use 24fps mode. -- Gareth. that fly...... is your magic wand.... |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"Chas Gill" wrote in message ... From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Chas If your TV won't accept 24p then the player will output Blu-ray as 1080i/p @ 60Hz, no 4% speed-up conversion to PAL 25/50 as some people are incorrectly assuming. If I disable 24p output on my Panasonic BD50 the BD50 then outputs 1080p @ 60Hz and you can see 2:3 pulldown artifacts and panning judder. Not wholy unacceptable but not as nice as 24p. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Ian_m wrote:
If your TV won't accept 24p then the player will output Blu-ray as 1080i/p @ 60Hz, no 4% speed-up conversion to PAL 25/50 as some people are incorrectly assuming. I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that a BD/DVD player will initiate 4% speed up from a 24p disc, when feeding a non 24p display, only that they would repeat a frame's worth of material once per second. Speed up is only used in broadcasting, and mastering R2-625/50 DVDs. If I disable 24p output on my Panasonic BD50 the BD50 then outputs 1080p @ 60Hz and you can see 2:3 pulldown artifacts and panning judder. Not wholy unacceptable but not as nice as 24p. 2:3 pulldown for me is the spawn of the Devil ! YMMV. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Mark Carver wrote:
I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that a BD/DVD player will initiate 4% speed up from a 24p disc, when feeding a non 24p display, only that they would repeat a frame's worth of material once per second. Speed up is only used in broadcasting, and mastering R2-625/50 DVDs. Repeating a frame looks surprisingly nasty on slow pans making the picture jolt noticeably once per second. If I disable 24p output on my Panasonic BD50 the BD50 then outputs 1080p @ 60Hz and you can see 2:3 pulldown artifacts and panning judder. Not wholy unacceptable but not as nice as 24p. 2:3 pulldown for me is the spawn of the Devil ! YMMV. 2:3 pulldown does create artifacts, but I find it an order of magnitude more acceptable than adding one frame per second. -- Dave Farrance |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Dave Farrance wrote:
Mark Carver wrote: 2:3 pulldown for me is the spawn of the Devil ! YMMV. 2:3 pulldown does create artifacts, but I find it an order of magnitude more acceptable than adding one frame per second. What does look awful is 2:3 pulldown obviously applied in 525/60, and then converted to 625/50 ! -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:51:25 +0100, Mike Henry
wrote: In , Dave Farrance wrote: True 50 fps seems to me to be much more desirable than true 24 fps for a television over here. Well yes, but only in the statistical sense that more people (those that watch UK television programmes) will need native 50fps than people who need native 24fps (those that watch Blu-Ray movies) - but both features are highly desirable. Eventually everyone will need both. It shouldn't be an either or. I'd hope that most TVs sold over here *are* capable of true 50 fps, but I've not researched this so it might be a more widespread problem than just these Panasonic Vieras. Hope not - I thought that the days of manufacturers palming off old 60fps-only panels on the public were gone. I didn't realise that this disgraceful practice was still going on :-( I find the feature works quite well. Marky P. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:30:17 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote: On 2008-08-20 20:15:14 +0100, Marky P said: On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:42:22 +0100, Stan The Man wrote: On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W" said: "Stan The Man" wrote in message ... On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns said: On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote: From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second, so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth. My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series, such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA. All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps). Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects suitable material? Stan I have a Panny Viera, but I haven't noticed an option to switch 24fps on or off. Mine seems automatic. To be more precise, the feature is called "Intelligent Frame Creation" (TH- 42PZ81B model) and it is configurable to on or off. Stan I find with Blu-Ray, the IFC feature does improve movement. This is an additional feature to the 24fps feature. Marky P. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On 2008-08-22 18:32:00 +0100, Marky P said:
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:30:17 +0100, Stan The Man wrote: On 2008-08-20 20:15:14 +0100, Marky P said: On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:42:22 +0100, Stan The Man wrote: On 2008-08-20 12:58:46 +0100, "Brian W" said: "Stan The Man" wrote in message ... On 2008-08-20 09:22:14 +0100, Andy Burns said: On 20/08/2008 09:04, Chas Gill wrote: From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Every 24th frame will be displayed twice to make 50 fields per second, so playback will have a glitch once a second rather than being smooth. My new Viera has a 24fps option but I haven't figured out when to use it yet. Should it be activated for all Blu Ray movies or only those which display a 24fps flag? Presumably the Blu Ray set of a TV series, such as Planet Earth, won't benefit from 24fps? TIA. All BD movies play at 24fps (you'll notice that a BD film will run a few minutes longer than the same film on PAL DVD, which is 25fps). Thanks. Wondering now if I can just leave this option ticked permanently: presumably the Viera will only use it when it detects suitable material? Stan I have a Panny Viera, but I haven't noticed an option to switch 24fps on or off. Mine seems automatic. To be more precise, the feature is called "Intelligent Frame Creation" (TH- 42PZ81B model) and it is configurable to on or off. Stan I find with Blu-Ray, the IFC feature does improve movement. This is an additional feature to the 24fps feature. Yes, I have been confused but my further research confirms that the '24p Real Cinema' feature is built in and not user configurable. The manual states: "24p Real Cinema: The 24p source data of movies is converted into a video signal with 6 frames/0.1 second. This produces smoother movie playback." IFC _is_ configurable and has similar sounding benefits. Again from the manual: "Automatically compensates the picture frame rate to make the image smooth (Off / On). It is effective when viewing 24p input signal with this function set to “On”." This suggests that IFC may only be effective when viewing Blu-Ray movies, in which case I am still confused as it sounds like both features do the same job. A reviewer at Trusted Reviews, writing about IFC on the slightly different TH-50PZ800B model, says: "Wrapping up what's basically a pretty wondrous performance with our Sweeney Todd Blu-ray is the exceptional lack of video noise of any sort, and the extremely clear appearance of its moving objects, as the Intelligent Frame Creation system does a terrific job of smoothing and sharpening away the usual judder and blur. What's more, IFC does this while leaving behind only minimal evidence of negative side effects like shimmering around the edges of moving objects. That said, I'd urge you not to leave the IFC feature active for everything you watch. For while it works brilliantly with a 1080p/24fps movie feed, if I left it running while watching a sporting event it sometimes caused balls to ‘glitch' quite alarmingly as they hurtled across the turf, seemingly creating three balls where there should only be one." [http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/re...-Plasma-TV/p3] I must say that the manual isn't very idiot-friendly and gives no further guidance on where and when to turn IFC on. FWIW, it seems that all Pannys support 24p according to an interesting discussion at http://www.avforums.com/forums/archi.../t-653527.html Stan |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:12:55 +0100, "Ian_m"
wrote: "Chas Gill" wrote in message ... From reading some stuff here and also in recent ads for new TVs I see that the only way to get a "true cinema experience" is to have a 24fps capable TV. I don't think my Sony Bravia 2000 series has this, if only because it is a boasted feature on the 4000 series. So what will be the "less than true cinema experience" that I will have should I choose to purchase and play a Blue Ray player through it? Is it something that will irritate me or something I could put up with (subjective, I know - but any contribution gratefully accepted!). Chas If your TV won't accept 24p then the player will output Blu-ray as 1080i/p @ 60Hz, no 4% speed-up conversion to PAL 25/50 as some people are incorrectly assuming. If I disable 24p output on my Panasonic BD50 the BD50 then outputs 1080p @ 60Hz and you can see 2:3 pulldown artifacts and panning judder. Not wholy unacceptable but not as nice as 24p. I found that if the film is 'involving' enough, you don't notice the judder so much :-) Marky P. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"Mike Henry" wrote in message ... In , "Chas Gill" wrote: Snipped for brevity Oh, and by the way, my TV was VERY expensive when I bought it not about 18 months ago (not so now, though :-( ). What worries me is that my very expensive TV (which performs outstandingly with 1080i source material from my SKY box) isn't capable of a similar outstanding performance from a Blu Ray source, because someone decided that Blu Ray had to deliver 24fps because that's what films do. See above. It's not a new sudden decision. It's a shame you spent a huge amount of money without taking time to do some research first :-( Well, I try to research these things, I really do - but to be fair this whole subject area is pretty complex for those of us average consumers who aren't aware of everything that's going on in the industry. When I bought this telly it was the top of the range flagship Sony latest all-singing, all-dancing mutts nuts - and the Blu ray vs. HD DVD thing was still going on. It simply never occurred to me (having watched films for donkey's years on TV and being blissfully unaware that they were running a bit fast) that someone had a solution looking for a problem and that the solution was going to degrade my viewing experience unless I had the right sort of TV. That's what it comes down to and that's what brasses me off, especially so when the maker of my telly invented the Blu Ray system and must have known when they marketed my telly that it was incompatible. Ultimately the complexity of the purchasing decision in cases like this steers many of us to trust the retailer and the manufacturer to do the right thing and be up front about developments that are around the corner. How silly to think that they might...................... However it's helped with one purchasing decision - I shan't be buying a Blu Ray player until my current telly drops dead - and hopefully that won't be for a very long time to come. Chas |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
In message , Mike Henry
wrote If you have all UK R2 titles however, you're stuck with them being at 25fps and the wrong speed and pitch forever no matter what player you use, because the audio conversion was done at the DVD mastering stage. And isn't it amazing that 99.99 percent of the people buying these DVDs haven't noticed? -- Alan news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
Alan wrote:
In message , Mike Henry wrote If you have all UK R2 titles however, you're stuck with them being at 25fps and the wrong speed and pitch forever no matter what player you use, because the audio conversion was done at the DVD mastering stage. And isn't it amazing that 99.99 percent of the people buying these DVDs haven't noticed? Do you have any evidence to back that figure? |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
In article , Alan wrote:
If you have all UK R2 titles however, you're stuck with them being at 25fps and the wrong speed and pitch forever no matter what player you use, because the audio conversion was done at the DVD mastering stage. And isn't it amazing that 99.99 percent of the people buying these DVDs haven't noticed? I think it's curious that the effect has become known as "PAL speedup", even though it's always been that way with any cinema film shown on European television since before PAL was invented. And you're right; most people don't notice. It bugs me that we should have something inherently wrong built into something that is used by half the world, but in real life there are more important things to worry about. Rod. -- Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/ |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
"Roderick Stewart" wrote in message .myzen.co.uk... In article , Alan wrote: If you have all UK R2 titles however, you're stuck with them being at 25fps and the wrong speed and pitch forever no matter what player you use, because the audio conversion was done at the DVD mastering stage. And isn't it amazing that 99.99 percent of the people buying these DVDs haven't noticed? I think it's curious that the effect has become known as "PAL speedup", even though it's always been that way with any cinema film shown on European television since before PAL was invented. what did we use before PAL ? interestingly, visitng my parents yesterday i had to sit through the godawful bridget jones 2. all the music sounded quite normal - then i switched to the french soundtrack for some reason - and the PAL speedup kicked in. the people who did the dvd went to the trouble of pitch correcting the music for the english soundtrack - so there's no reason why every company shouldn't do the same. fortunately while i spot the pitch shift straight away the tempo difference which must have remained wasn't noticeable to me at all. -- Gareth. that fly...... is your magic wand.... |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
The dog from that film you saw wrote:
"Roderick Stewart" wrote in I think it's curious that the effect has become known as "PAL speedup", even though it's always been that way with any cinema film shown on European television since before PAL was invented. what did we use before PAL ? PAL is a colour coding system, before PAL (used first in 1967) everything in western Europe was in black and white, i.e. no colour subcarrier. Of course the France went their own way with SECAM. You seem to be confusing CCIR 625/50, with PAL ? -- Mark Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
In article , The dog from that film you
saw wrote: I think it's curious that the effect has become known as "PAL speedup", even though it's always been that way with any cinema film shown on European television since before PAL was invented. what did we use before PAL ? 625 line 50 fields per second monochrome television. And before that, 405 line 50 fields per second monochrome television. I can remember seeing cinema films shown on both systems. Telecine machines that can show film at 24fps did exist (and probably still do) but were not always used. Rod. -- Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/ |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
The message en.co.uk
from Roderick Stewart contains these words: In article , The dog from that film you saw wrote: I think it's curious that the effect has become known as "PAL speedup", even though it's always been that way with any cinema film shown on European television since before PAL was invented. what did we use before PAL ? 625 line 50 fields per second monochrome television. And before that, 405 line 50 fields per second monochrome television. I can remember seeing cinema films shown on both systems. Telecine machines that can show film at 24fps did exist (and probably still do) but were not always used. The results of any such 24fps telecine equipment, with the technology available back then, would surely have been a less perfect solution than that which is now used universally to display 24fps material at 25fps. The one major drawback of raising the pitch by just over quarter of a semitone was not a serious departure from fidelity. The 4.167% speed increase would otherwise not be detectable without the aid of a stopwatch and a knowledge of the running time of the 24fps material. Another factor which helped endorse the rather pragmatic solution of simply allowing 24fps film footage to be dragged through the telecine at 25fps was that the sound track would increase in pitch and sound slightly 'sharper' which is far more acceptable than if the conversion needed to go the other way and make the soundtrack sound 'flatter'. The modest sharpening of the soundtrack is the least of any of the other evils involved with alternative high tech conversion algorithms that may have been entertained over the past 50 odd years. Although it is now possible to shift the audio down in frequency to compensate, it's not a good idea since it will upset the harmonic 'balance' and introduce an even more objectional type of 'distortion'. -- Regards, John. Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying. The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
In article , Johnny B Good
wrote: Telecine machines that can show film at 24fps did exist (and probably still do) but were not always used. The results of any such 24fps telecine equipment, with the technology available back then, would surely have been a less perfect solution than that which is now used universally to display 24fps material at 25fps. Not necessarily. All that's required is to be able to blend smoothly from one film frame to the next so that individual film frames don't have to coincide with TV frames. The fact that we do this sort of thing nowadays by immensely complicated electronics doesn't mean it's the only way. By suitable design, it can be done, and was done, optically. In the 405 line monochrome 1950s the BBC had a programme called "In Town Tonight" (the forerunner of what we would now call a chat show) which used a variable speed telecine machine (Mechau?) to slow a film of London traffic continuously from normal speed down to zero. I suppose this gimmick was supposed to suggest that they were bringing London to a halt while the programme took place. I never saw the machine but had it described to me by someone who had operated it, and it appears to have done its clever stuff by means of a rotating prism. The film would move continuously (not intermittently), and the prism would rotate in such a way as to present a varying blend of two adjacent film frames to the flying-spot CRT, so there was no need for a shutter or any kind of intermittent mechanism. It was a long time ago, but from personal recollection the effect on screen was very smooth. Rod. -- Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/ |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
In article en.co.uk,
Roderick Stewart wrote: In article , Johnny B Good wrote: Telecine machines that can show film at 24fps did exist (and probably still do) but were not always used. The results of any such 24fps telecine equipment, with the technology available back then, would surely have been a less perfect solution than that which is now used universally to display 24fps material at 25fps. Not necessarily. All that's required is to be able to blend smoothly from one film frame to the next so that individual film frames don't have to coincide with TV frames. The fact that we do this sort of thing nowadays by immensely complicated electronics doesn't mean it's the only way. By suitable design, it can be done, and was done, optically. In the 405 line monochrome 1950s the BBC had a programme called "In Town Tonight" (the forerunner of what we would now call a chat show) which used a variable speed telecine machine (Mechau?) to slow a film of London traffic continuously from normal speed down to zero. I suppose this gimmick was supposed to suggest that they were bringing London to a halt while the programme took place. I never saw the machine but had it described to me by someone who had operated it, and it appears to have done its clever stuff by means of a rotating prism. The film would move continuously (not intermittently), and the prism would rotate in such a way as to present a varying blend of two adjacent film frames to the flying-spot CRT, so there was no need for a shutter or any kind of intermittent mechanism. It was a long time ago, but from personal recollection the effect on screen was very smooth. Rod. The disadvantage of the prism-and-mirror system is that in effect it crossfades one frame into the next. This results in some frames as transmitted having double images where there is movement: something which I can detect during viewing and find irritating. It's been used occasionally, but not usually for full-length films (silent films are a different problem, running as slow as 16fps). I did see a transmission of 'Dr. Strangelove' where the BBC decided to repeat every 12th field, producing a distinctly jerky effect on pans. The 25fps solution is the least worst. Apart from the occasional person with perfect pitch, the 4% (2/3 semitone) increase is barely detectable. Oddly enough, a 4% drop (as with made for British TV films shown in a cinema) is much more noticeable, producing a distinctly sluggish sound. |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
In article , Roger Wilmut
wrote: The 25fps solution is the least worst. Apart from the occasional person with perfect pitch, the 4% (2/3 semitone) increase is barely detectable. Oddly enough, a 4% drop (as with made for British TV films shown in a cinema) is much more noticeable, producing a distinctly sluggish sound. Is there some technical reason why they can't show 25fps films in cinemas at the right speed? Cameras can do several speeds quite easily just by changing a crystal. Rod. -- Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/ |
24 fps, blue ray and my telly.
In article en.co.uk,
Roderick Stewart wrote: In article , Roger Wilmut wrote: The 25fps solution is the least worst. Apart from the occasional person with perfect pitch, the 4% (2/3 semitone) increase is barely detectable. Oddly enough, a 4% drop (as with made for British TV films shown in a cinema) is much more noticeable, producing a distinctly sluggish sound. Is there some technical reason why they can't show 25fps films in cinemas at the right speed? Cameras can do several speeds quite easily just by changing a crystal. Rod. I'm not a projectionist, but I should imagine that most cinemas would never have any reason to show films at other than 24fps and that the option would not be built into the projector. The National Film Theatre, which regularly show silent films, can run the projectors slower, though I don't know how this is regulated; but it's quite likely that they can't speed them up. However I don't know for sure. |
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