question about scalers
 

I have a problem that nobody else seems to have. I'm thinking about
getting a bigger HDTV, but I have a lot of old SD and VHS-quality
material, which looks blurry when viewed full-size on a large screen.
Is there any way I can shrink a video picture so that it occupies less
than the full height and width of the screen? In other words, so the
picture has black bars all around-- letterbox AND pillarbox?

Ideally, I'd like to be able to view widescreen movies and other HD
material on as large a screen as I can afford, but that makes my old
material look blurry. And no, I don't want to throw away the old stuff.
Much of it is simply priceless-- that is, I can't replace it at any
price.

I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as I
can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for upscaling
480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor. I want custom
settings that would let me, for example, display 480-line video on the
middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there scalers that can do that?

I'd be grateful for any information.

Cheers!
- Allen

question about scalers
 

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:52:39 +0000, Allen Watson wrote:

I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as I
can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for upscaling
480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor. I want custom
settings that would let me, for example, display 480-line video on the
middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there scalers that can do that?

Set your TV for a 1:1 aspect ratio. That will display it as is. IOW's, if
it's 640x480 and you have a 1366x768 display, it will occupy the center
640x480 pixels. It will be small, but it will be super clear.:-)

I'm assuming all HDTV's have this setting since my inexpensive sets do.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
My Tivo Experience http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/tivo.htm
Tivo HD/S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
AMD cpu help http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

question about scalers
 

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:21:16 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:52:39 +0000, Allen Watson wrote:

I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as I
can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for upscaling
480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor. I want custom
settings that would let me, for example, display 480-line video on the
middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there scalers that can do that?

Set your TV for a 1:1 aspect ratio. That will display it as is. IOW's, if
it's 640x480 and you have a 1366x768 display, it will occupy the center
640x480 pixels. It will be small, but it will be super clear.:-)

I'm assuming all HDTV's have this setting since my inexpensive sets do.

Are you sure your TV allows that with a low resolution input?
The models I know of only allows 1:1 pixel mapping when the input
signal match the display native resolution.

(I'm in Europe and our SD resolutions use non-square pixels, so it
might be different.)

I have no experience with external scalers but one idea is to use a
PIP/PAP or Text with picture mode to get a smaller picture.

I can achieve it with Text with picture (on analogue inputs). That
means the picture will be about half the screen width.
The limitation is that the picture format is locked to 4:3 and (to
work the best) finding a Text Page that produce black. It worked in a
quick test but I have not used it for real.

It can be mentioned that the quality when upscaling SD material and
especially noisy SD material differs between TV models. When looking
for an HDTV, this could be an important factor.

question about scalers
 

Allen Watson wrote:
I have a problem that nobody else seems to have. I'm thinking about
getting a bigger HDTV, but I have a lot of old SD and VHS-quality
material, which looks blurry when viewed full-size on a large screen.
Is there any way I can shrink a video picture so that it occupies less
than the full height and width of the screen? In other words, so the
picture has black bars all around-- letterbox AND pillarbox?

Ideally, I'd like to be able to view widescreen movies and other HD
material on as large a screen as I can afford, but that makes my old
material look blurry. And no, I don't want to throw away the old stuff.
Much of it is simply priceless-- that is, I can't replace it at any
price.

I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as I
can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for upscaling
480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor. I want custom
settings that would let me, for example, display 480-line video on the
middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there scalers that can do that?

I'd be grateful for any information.

Cheers!
- Allen


Considering the full raft of legacy material you have, I'll recommend
paying particular attention to two things, either or both can be applied
with an external scaler, or they can be included features within a
primary component somewhere in the playback chain.

1) 3:2 pull-down

2) 120Hz refresh rate.


#1 can be eliminated by a different feature - that being the capability
of displaying both 24fps and 30fps material natively. Most SD DVD's are
24fps, most SD VHS are 30fps.

#2 can't really be overstated, and can make a world of difference.


If both capabilities are available, you will care a lot less about the
eventual image size after it's been up-rezzed by the HDTV. In my case,
I chose an HDTV that includes these features to keep things simple.
But (there's always one of these), there are other issues inherent with
playing legacy SD material on an HDTV, and unfortunately, an HDTV will
expose these issues far more than any SD display could - and there
really ain't a whole lot you can do about that.


--
jer
email reply - I am not a 'ten'

question about scalers
 

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:52:39 +0000, Allen Watson wrote:

I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as I
can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for upscaling
480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor. I want custom
settings that would let me, for example, display 480-line video on the
middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there scalers that can do that?

Set your TV for a 1:1 aspect ratio. That will display it as is. IOW's, if
it's 640x480 and you have a 1366x768 display, it will occupy the center
640x480 pixels. It will be small, but it will be super clear.:-)

I think on my TV it is called 1:1 pixel mapping rather than aspect ratio,
but something like that should work. Probably won't work with all inputs.
Because of context sensitive menues, you are probably best off looking at
the manual rather than using the hunt and peck method.

Tam

I'm assuming all HDTV's have this setting since my inexpensive sets do.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
My Tivo Experience http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/tivo.htm
Tivo HD/S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
AMD cpu help http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

question about scalers
 

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:00:12 +0200, Jan B wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:21:16 GMT, Wes Newell
wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:52:39 +0000, Allen Watson wrote:

I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as I
can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for upscaling
480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor. I want
custom settings that would let me, for example, display 480-line video
on the middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there scalers that can
do that?

Set your TV for a 1:1 aspect ratio. That will display it as is. IOW's,
if it's 640x480 and you have a 1366x768 display, it will occupy the
center 640x480 pixels. It will be small, but it will be super clear.:-)

I'm assuming all HDTV's have this setting since my inexpensive sets do.

Are you sure your TV allows that with a low resolution input? The models
I know of only allows 1:1 pixel mapping when the input signal match the
display native resolution.

Yes, I just double checked (Olevia 427V). 1:1 mode puts a 640x480 image in
the center of the screen when tuned to NTSC or ATSC SD channels. The TV's
native res is 1366x768.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
My Tivo Experience http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/tivo.htm
Tivo HD/S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
AMD cpu help http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

question about scalers
 

Tam wrote:

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:52:39 +0000, Allen Watson wrote:

I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as I
can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for upscaling
480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor. I want custom
settings that would let me, for example, display 480-line video on the
middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there scalers that can do that?

Set your TV for a 1:1 aspect ratio. That will display it as is. IOW's, if
it's 640x480 and you have a 1366x768 display, it will occupy the center
640x480 pixels. It will be small, but it will be super clear.:-)

I think on my TV it is called 1:1 pixel mapping rather than aspect
ratio, but something like that should work. Probably won't work with all
inputs. Because of context sensitive menues, you are probably best off
looking at the manual rather than using the hunt and peck method.

Tam

I'm assuming all HDTV's have this setting since my inexpensive sets do.

--


Ditto Tam's observation on inputs. But, on our
HDTV it wasn't covered in the manual and I
stumbled across the capability by accident.

The 1:1 isn't available on the inputs that have
HDMI/component options. It's a default on the
"PC" input (#3) using either the RGB/VGA socket
or S-Video connection on that input. (changing
PC resolution changes the image size) The
"external" composite input (#4) also appears to
have 1:1 scaling. On the later input, image size
is manipulated with the aspect ratio contol.

--
pj

question about scalers
 

Thank you Wes, Jan B, Tam, pj, and Jer for replying.

My 3-year-old Olevia doesn't have a 1:1 mode, but I have seen that
mentioned in reviews of more recent HDTVs, so now I have a better idea
of what to look for. It sounds as if I will be able to get a bigger
screen for watching movies and still be able to watch my legacy material
in a small, sharp window.

I'd be grateful for any information.

Cheers!
- Allen

question about scalers
 

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:21:16 GMT Wes Newell wrote:
| On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:52:39 +0000, Allen Watson wrote:
|
| I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as I
| can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for upscaling
| 480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor. I want custom
| settings that would let me, for example, display 480-line video on the
| middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there scalers that can do that?
|
| Set your TV for a 1:1 aspect ratio. That will display it as is. IOW's, if
| it's 640x480 and you have a 1366x768 display, it will occupy the center
| 640x480 pixels. It will be small, but it will be super clear.:-)

Can you list a model that _actually_ does this? When I set them to 1:1
(not all can even do that) then the 640x480 input ends up as 1024x768,
filling the middle from top to bottom, with black sides (e.g. pillar
boxed). That _is_ a 1:1 aspect ratio ... just not a 1:1 pixel conversion
ratio. Converting 640x480 to 1024x768 is a 5:8 conversion ratio.


| I'm assuming all HDTV's have this setting since my inexpensive sets do.

Not the Vizio 32" my brother has. OTOH, the pillarbox picture looks fine
despite the 5:8 conversion.

What really sucks is when the station sends some 16:9 program in letterbox
over SD. 360 lines out of 480 would be used. Then that 640x360 picture
gets scaled up to 1024x576 on the 1366x768 screen. I refer to this using
the made up term "pilletter boxed". The Vizio set won't zoom it. It can
stretch it wider, but then it isn't 1:1 aspect anymore. It needs to have
a 33.3% (3:4) zoom that will obey when selected, even if it things something
is going to be lost off the edge of the screen.

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

question about scalers
 

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:56:50 -0500 Jer wrote:

| #1 can be eliminated by a different feature - that being the capability
| of displaying both 24fps and 30fps material natively. Most SD DVD's are
| 24fps, most SD VHS are 30fps.

Do you know of an SD DVD player that outputs the 24 fps content in an actual
24 fps output format (e.g. no pullup at all)?

One thing I am wanting to do is find a way to provide a full suite of TV test
that can be applied to a new HDTV in a store to verify it works correctly in
all the needed ways.

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

question about scalers
 

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 22:26:33 +0000, phil-news-nospam wrote:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:21:16 GMT Wes Newell
wrote: | On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:52:39
+0000, Allen Watson wrote: |
| I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as
I | can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for
upscaling | 480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor.
I want custom | settings that would let me, for example, display
480-line video on the | middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there
scalers that can do that? |
| Set your TV for a 1:1 aspect ratio. That will display it as is. IOW's,
if | it's 640x480 and you have a 1366x768 display, it will occupy the
center | 640x480 pixels. It will be small, but it will be super
clear.:-)

Can you list a model that _actually_ does this? When I set them to 1:1
(not all can even do that) then the 640x480 input ends up as 1024x768,
filling the middle from top to bottom, with black sides (e.g. pillar
boxed). That _is_ a 1:1 aspect ratio ... just not a 1:1 pixel
conversion ratio. Converting 640x480 to 1024x768 is a 5:8 conversion
ratio.

Olevia 427V (Set Aspect ratio to 1:1 mode). Envision 37" (Set aspect ratio
to no scale). It's done different but the end results are the same.


| I'm assuming all HDTV's have this setting since my inexpensive sets
do.

Not the Vizio 32" my brother has. OTOH, the pillarbox picture looks
fine despite the 5:8 conversion.

Hmmm... My cousin has a Vizio 37" and I'm pretty sure it does. But it
isn't in the menu IIRC. Only on the remote.

What really sucks is when the station sends some 16:9 program in
letterbox over SD. 360 lines out of 480 would be used. Then that
640x360 picture gets scaled up to 1024x576 on the 1366x768 screen. I
refer to this using the made up term "pilletter boxed". The Vizio set
won't zoom it. It can stretch it wider, but then it isn't 1:1 aspect
anymore. It needs to have a 33.3% (3:4) zoom that will obey when
selected, even if it things something is going to be lost off the edge
of the screen.

Well, I just set both my HDTV's to normal aspect ratios. I watch
everything through my PC recorder system which will let me manipulate the
picture any way I see fit. Now I wouldn't want to make the image smaller,
but when I get a 16:9 picture in a 4:3 image I can just use 16:9 zoom to
take it right back to full screen. There's quite a few shows like this I
watch. I really haven't checked to see if the TV's will do this on their
own.... Well, the Envision zoom x2 mode does exactly that. Zoom modes are
1/4, 1/2, x1 (normal), x2, and x4 on it. Can't get to the Olevia to test
it now, but I'm pretty sure it will also do it.

--
Want the ultimate in free OTA SD/HDTV Recorder? http://mythtv.org
My Tivo Experience http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/tivo.htm
Tivo HD/S3 compared http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/mythtivo.htm
AMD cpu help http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php

question about scalers
 

On Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:56:42 GMT Wes Newell wrote:
| On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 22:26:33 +0000, phil-news-nospam wrote:
|
| On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 04:21:16 GMT Wes Newell
| wrote: | On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 22:52:39
| +0000, Allen Watson wrote: |
| | I've been looking at specifications for video scalers, but as far as
| I | can tell, they provide only the standard presets-- fine for
| upscaling | 480-line stuff to full-screen on a 720p or 1080p monitor.
| I want custom | settings that would let me, for example, display
| 480-line video on the | middle 480 lines of a 720p monitor. Are there
| scalers that can do that? |
| | Set your TV for a 1:1 aspect ratio. That will display it as is. IOW's,
| if | it's 640x480 and you have a 1366x768 display, it will occupy the
| center | 640x480 pixels. It will be small, but it will be super
| clear.:-)
|
| Can you list a model that _actually_ does this? When I set them to 1:1
| (not all can even do that) then the 640x480 input ends up as 1024x768,
| filling the middle from top to bottom, with black sides (e.g. pillar
| boxed). That _is_ a 1:1 aspect ratio ... just not a 1:1 pixel
| conversion ratio. Converting 640x480 to 1024x768 is a 5:8 conversion
| ratio.
|
| Olevia 427V (Set Aspect ratio to 1:1 mode). Envision 37" (Set aspect ratio
| to no scale). It's done different but the end results are the same.
|
|
| | I'm assuming all HDTV's have this setting since my inexpensive sets
| do.
|
| Not the Vizio 32" my brother has. OTOH, the pillarbox picture looks
| fine despite the 5:8 conversion.
|
| Hmmm... My cousin has a Vizio 37" and I'm pretty sure it does. But it
| isn't in the menu IIRC. Only on the remote.

His has "zoom" on the remote. It has no effect. I don't know the reason
for this.


| What really sucks is when the station sends some 16:9 program in
| letterbox over SD. 360 lines out of 480 would be used. Then that
| 640x360 picture gets scaled up to 1024x576 on the 1366x768 screen. I
| refer to this using the made up term "pilletter boxed". The Vizio set
| won't zoom it. It can stretch it wider, but then it isn't 1:1 aspect
| anymore. It needs to have a 33.3% (3:4) zoom that will obey when
| selected, even if it things something is going to be lost off the edge
| of the screen.
|
| Well, I just set both my HDTV's to normal aspect ratios. I watch
| everything through my PC recorder system which will let me manipulate the
| picture any way I see fit. Now I wouldn't want to make the image smaller,
| but when I get a 16:9 picture in a 4:3 image I can just use 16:9 zoom to
| take it right back to full screen. There's quite a few shows like this I
| watch. I really haven't checked to see if the TV's will do this on their
| own.... Well, the Envision zoom x2 mode does exactly that. Zoom modes are
| 1/4, 1/2, x1 (normal), x2, and x4 on it. Can't get to the Olevia to test
| it now, but I'm pretty sure it will also do it.

My big concern now is finding a way to test this ability across a variety
of modes that it might be an issue with ... in stores before buying an HDTV
for myself. I'm probably not going to get Vizio. I'm probably going to
aim at the 42" size and 1080p. But I need to do things like test it with
a p24 source (in all sizes) and see if it is trying to do 3:2 pullup on it
or if it just updates the LCD grid exactly as fed (or some exact multiple
of that like p48 or p72).

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |